petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Oct 24, 2020 22:45:38 GMT -5
When putting over Warrior, giving the title to him wasn't a planned spot. Hogan did it on his own accord to get people to feel sorry for him cause he told Vince that he would put Warrior over but wanted to turn heel in the process but Vince said no Uh, no, that was clearly planned. Hebner screws up and goes to give Warrior both belts right after the finish, and Warrior just takes the IC belt and then practically has to shove Hebner away, because the spot is for Hogan to give him the WWF title belt. If it was "unplanned" then it was a plan between Hogan and Warrior because Warrior was clearly in on it. Re: Starrcade '97...yes, it's the rightful leader of this poll and Hogan pulled a lot of crap surrounding it, but I never agreed with the idea of running the match as a squash, either. We were 20 years away from Brock vs. Goldberg--you could not run a squash as a PPV main event, especially one that had been building up for almost 18 months. The way they went about it was wrong in its surface and executed even worse, but I feel you absolutely had to have a spot in the match where it appears that Hogan is going to f*** Sting and WCW over, and for Sting and WCW to come back and foil it.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Oct 24, 2020 22:56:40 GMT -5
They did give Sting the title. He won that match. The original plan was for Sting to win in a squash, and when Hogan didn't want to do that, we got the finish that happened. It was a compromise because while Hogan didn't want to get squashed, even he and Bischoff knew that Hogan winning or keeping the title on a DQ wasn't an option, either. You know what I meant by let's not give him the title It should been a squash, no questions asked. He couldn't even lose competently. The angle called for a big win and he muddied it as much as possible I have a question. So you squash your top heel & you put the belt on a guy who hasn't wrestled in over a year working his first match in a new gimmick. Where do you go from there? It seems to me there are two claims about the match 1. Hogan & Bischoff f'd over Sting. That is quite plausible 2. Had Sting won clean things would have differently for WCW in the long term. That claim isn't supported imo. WCW did better in 98 the 97 so it's not like the bottom line was hurt. Also in hindsight we know that Goldberg was soon to explode as the promotions top face & would be winning the belt clean some eight months later. So Sting's days as the top face were numbered regardless.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Oct 24, 2020 22:57:01 GMT -5
If Hogan lost clean to Sting it would have been the end of his usefulness. Honestly Hogan had served his purpose. The year plus nWo domination should have ended with Sting decisively beating Hogan.
What we got was the worst thing for the fans, the company and wrestling in general, but because it served to keep Hogan relevant it's what we got.
It's the single most damaging match in the history of the sport. There is no single match that sunk a product as fast as the Sting/Hogan match at Starrcade.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 24, 2020 23:02:47 GMT -5
You know what I meant by let's not give him the title It should been a squash, no questions asked. He couldn't even lose competently. The angle called for a big win and he muddied it as much as possible I have a question. So you squash your top heel & you put the belt on a guy who hasn't wrestled in over a year working his first match in a new gimmick. Where do you go from there? YES. That was the damn story built up. That's what the fans wanted and paid for Hogan was not going to disappear off the face of the planet but his feud with Sting was built on him getting his hands on him and destroying him after the way he destroyed WCW
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 24, 2020 23:06:59 GMT -5
When putting over Warrior, giving the title to him wasn't a planned spot. Hogan did it on his own accord to get people to feel sorry for him cause he told Vince that he would put Warrior over but wanted to turn heel in the process but Vince said no Uh, no, that was clearly planned. Hebner screws up and goes to give Warrior both belts right after the finish, and Warrior just takes the IC belt and then practically has to shove Hebner away, because the spot is for Hogan to give him the WWF title belt. If it was "unplanned" then it was a plan between Hogan and Warrior because Warrior was clearly in on it. Hogan admitted this himself on Steve Austin podcast. He intentionally drew attention away from the Warrior so the camera can focus on him
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petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Oct 24, 2020 23:08:58 GMT -5
Well, Hogan could admit that the sky was blue and I wouldn't believe him, so no, I don't believe anything he said on Austin's podcast, either.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Oct 24, 2020 23:27:48 GMT -5
I have a question. So you squash your top heel & you put the belt on a guy who hasn't wrestled in over a year working his first match in a new gimmick. Where do you go from there? YES. That was the damn story built up. That's what the fans wanted and paid for Hogan was not going to disappear off the face of the planet but his feud with Sting was built on him getting his hands on him and destroying him after the way he destroyed WCW That was the story built up. That's what 15 year old me wanted to see. The lack of it is what left me with a meh feeling after the fact. So I get it. I also get that it wasn't time to blow off the entire nWo money train & WCW creative had to format TVs to build to another ppv a month later. So if Hogan goes away for awhile who does Sting work with as the top heel? Nash possibly? But if Nash is working with Sting what do you do with The Giant? Do you turn him *again*? And so on... Someone in this thread earlier argued that Sting vs Hogan should have been earlier in the year. I agree with that. But the build was working so well for them that by the time the match came the objectives of both having a satisfying ending to that chapter in the story & having a solid jumping off point for the next chapter became mutually exclusive.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Oct 24, 2020 23:56:23 GMT -5
The funny thing about the Sting match was they did a rematch the next night on Nitro where the finish (which wasn't aired until the first episode of Thunder) was...Sting once again getting pinned by Hogan with a very normal count.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 0:52:10 GMT -5
It's Starrcade and nothing else came close.
It was quite possibly the hottest wrestling angle ever. The setup was there. The fans had a babyface they believed in. Everyone was clamoring for the heel who'd, for the most part, gotten away unscathed for over a year to finally get his ass kicked.
Hogan NEEDED to put on his working boots that night, and go out and be a coward shit-heel that would act like the specter of death itself was hovering over him every time Sting managed to get in some offense. Just 15-20 minutes of Hogan being beaten pillar to post save for a moment or two of heel heat before Sting basically leaves him in the ring laying flat on the mat with Hogan acting like he'd been beaten half to death.
That's... not what we got, and Bisch can say it's about Sting's "lack of tan" (even if we all sort of know what he really means by that), but I suspect plenty of guys in WCW didn't exactly "have a great tan" either, so that excuse falls pretty flat.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Oct 25, 2020 1:08:04 GMT -5
It's Starrcade and nothing else came close. It was quite possibly the hottest wrestling angle ever. The setup was there. The fans had a babyface they believed in. Everyone was clamoring for the heel who'd, for the most part, gotten away unscathed for over a year to finally get his ass kicked. Hogan NEEDED to put on his working boots that night, and go out and be a coward shit-heel that would act like the specter of death itself was hovering over him every time Sting managed to get in some offense. Just 15-20 minutes of Hogan being beaten pillar to post save for a moment or two of heel heat before Sting basically leaves him in the ring laying flat on the mat with Hogan acting like he'd been beaten half to death. That's... not what we got, and Bisch can say it's about Sting's "lack of tan" (even if we all sort of know what he really means by that), but I suspect plenty of guys in WCW didn't exactly "have a great tan" either, so that excuse falls pretty flat. Imagine signing Tom Cruise for the next Mission:Impossible, having him do media for it and all for six months or so, you meet him several times over the course of the process to shake hands, set up his appearances, just see how things are going. Then the day shooting starts he shows up on set and you decide "dude looks out of shape" and rewrite the script on the spot with a bunch of shenanigans to accommodate what you think are his shortcomings. And the rough cut of the movie needs to be shot and released that day, not just to producers but to everyone. There is no world where Hogan or Bisch's version of events makes sense. I would respect him so much more if he'd just acknowledge "ok, it was dumb, we could have done it better"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 1:12:27 GMT -5
It's Starrcade and nothing else came close. It was quite possibly the hottest wrestling angle ever. The setup was there. The fans had a babyface they believed in. Everyone was clamoring for the heel who'd, for the most part, gotten away unscathed for over a year to finally get his ass kicked. Hogan NEEDED to put on his working boots that night, and go out and be a coward shit-heel that would act like the specter of death itself was hovering over him every time Sting managed to get in some offense. Just 15-20 minutes of Hogan being beaten pillar to post save for a moment or two of heel heat before Sting basically leaves him in the ring laying flat on the mat with Hogan acting like he'd been beaten half to death. That's... not what we got, and Bisch can say it's about Sting's "lack of tan" (even if we all sort of know what he really means by that), but I suspect plenty of guys in WCW didn't exactly "have a great tan" either, so that excuse falls pretty flat. Imagine signing Tom Cruise for the next Mission:Impossible, having him do media for it and all for six months or so, you meet him several times over the course of the process to shake hands, set up his appearances, just see how things are going. Then the day shooting starts he shows up on set and you decide "dude looks out of shape" and rewrite the script on the spot with a bunch of shenanigans to accommodate what you think are his shortcomings. And the rough cut of the movie needs to be shot and released that day, not just to producers but to everyone. There is no world where Hogan or Bisch's version of events makes sense. I would respect him so much more if he'd just acknowledge "ok, it was dumb, we could have done it better" Exactly. This wasn't a match with a month's worth of buildup where you got caught with your pants down... the buildup was FOREVER. Bischoff is either: A. Full of shit or B. The worst head-honcho ever to not make sure Sting was in the shape to go back in, say, October or sooner.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 25, 2020 8:22:19 GMT -5
Uh, no, that was clearly planned. Hebner screws up and goes to give Warrior both belts right after the finish, and Warrior just takes the IC belt and then practically has to shove Hebner away, because the spot is for Hogan to give him the WWF title belt. If it was "unplanned" then it was a plan between Hogan and Warrior because Warrior was clearly in on it. Hogan admitted this himself on Steve Austin podcast. He intentionally drew attention away from the Warrior so the camera can focus on him I don't believe this for a second. Face Hogan would absolutely hug his face friend and hand the title over. It was entirely befitting the two characters and their story, plus the camera was focused on Warrior.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Oct 25, 2020 9:16:35 GMT -5
Other - making a song and dance about a young Undertaker damaging his neck with the Tombstone at Survivor Series 91. Making Taker feel bad and then getting his win back 6 days later. I don't know what to make of this story but I'm actually inclined to believe Hogan on this one. Dave reported it as a 100% legitimate neck injury at the time, and the "Flair showed Undertaker that Hogan's head didn't hit the chair" thing smells of BS, since the reporting was categorically that Hogan didn't get the injury from the chair, but from Undertaker's knee jamming him in the head/neck. Hogan went to the hospital and couldn't even cut a go-home promo for Tuesday in Texas, resulting in Sean Mooney standing by himself telling us that Hogan would "do his talking in the ring." Passing up a promo to hype a PPV just to score some political point seems over-the-top even for Hogan, especially 1991 Hogan. But making up some crap to discredit Hogan during one of their tiffs does sound exactly like something WWE would do. As for Undertaker's title reign...forget it. There is no way in hell he was coming out of Tuesday in Texas as the champion, period. Best-case scenario is that the title gets held up there instead of Hogan winning it and it getting Dusty Finished later, but I think they had to go with the happy ending for the PPV after screwing over paying fans once already by turning a PPV into a 3-hour commercial for another PPV, back when that was almost unthinkable. Very recently from the Undertaker himself.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Oct 25, 2020 9:37:25 GMT -5
Sting winning clean was the logical end to that story. It did not have to be the end of the nwo but it should have been the beginning of wcw being able to fight them off and get some major victories. Sting was not going to be the top star of wcw but he should have at least had a clean win and a title run as a thank you while the new babyfaces get ready to take over.
By going with the cluster f ending like they did they showed the fans it was still going to be the same old same old nwo act with no end in sight. And then after a great year with some major hope for the future (Goldberg) they did it again at the next Starrcade. And as we saw from there it was the beginning of the end. Starrcade 97 was not the end of wcw but it was the moment you can see in hindsight why wcw was going to end.
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Post by Ganon83 on Oct 25, 2020 9:41:38 GMT -5
I have to say that Bash at the Beach was not a Hogan political move. All of that was planned until Russo came out and called him a bald SOB. That was not Hogan actually acting unprofessional, that was the office trying to work the boys before Russo worked himself into a shoot.
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petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Oct 25, 2020 9:42:14 GMT -5
I don't know what to make of this story but I'm actually inclined to believe Hogan on this one. Dave reported it as a 100% legitimate neck injury at the time, and the "Flair showed Undertaker that Hogan's head didn't hit the chair" thing smells of BS, since the reporting was categorically that Hogan didn't get the injury from the chair, but from Undertaker's knee jamming him in the head/neck. Hogan went to the hospital and couldn't even cut a go-home promo for Tuesday in Texas, resulting in Sean Mooney standing by himself telling us that Hogan would "do his talking in the ring." Passing up a promo to hype a PPV just to score some political point seems over-the-top even for Hogan, especially 1991 Hogan. But making up some crap to discredit Hogan during one of their tiffs does sound exactly like something WWE would do. As for Undertaker's title reign...forget it. There is no way in hell he was coming out of Tuesday in Texas as the champion, period. Best-case scenario is that the title gets held up there instead of Hogan winning it and it getting Dusty Finished later, but I think they had to go with the happy ending for the PPV after screwing over paying fans once already by turning a PPV into a 3-hour commercial for another PPV, back when that was almost unthinkable. Very recently from the Undertaker himself. Yeah, none of that really rebuts anything. Undertaker seems to believe he was in line to keep the title after Tuesday in Texas, which was absolutely positively never going to happen.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Oct 25, 2020 9:43:50 GMT -5
If Hogan lost clean to Sting it would have been the end of his usefulness. Honestly Hogan had served his purpose. The year plus nWo domination should have ended with Sting decisively beating Hogan. What we got was the worst thing for the fans, the company and wrestling in general, but because it served to keep Hogan relevant it's what we got. It's the single most damaging match in the history of the sport. There is no single match that sunk a product as fast as the Sting/Hogan match at Starrcade. Except for the part but that by almost every tangible measure WCW was more successful in 1998 then 1997 it sunk the company. Look I think it turned out to be a crap match with a dumb finish too but I recognize it wasn't the end of WCW people want it out to be.,
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Oct 25, 2020 11:16:25 GMT -5
Yeah, Starrcade 1997 is likely the worst Hogan incident but this "It ruined the whole company" line that a lot of people are throwing out there just isn't true. 1998 was a hugely successful year for them.
Starrcade 97 would be like WCW's Bill Buckner. Yes, it was HORRIBLE...but it was Game 6, series isn't over yet. The Red Sox had the lead in Game 7 and blew that one as well, just like WCW bounced back from the Sting debacle with the rise of Goldberg. When they blew THAT, then the series was over.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Oct 25, 2020 11:42:25 GMT -5
The whole Warrior feud is hilarious for all the wrong reasons. First it's mostly them just yelling at each other, and second The Disciple is just sleeping everywhere. Plus at one point Bischoff called Warrior a gay slur
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SAJ Forth
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Post by SAJ Forth on Oct 25, 2020 11:54:32 GMT -5
On here: Starrcade 1997. The point where it was the indication no one was going to stop WCW from turning into the Hulk Hogan show even if it was pushing them off a cliff. Unlisted: Starrcade 1998/January 4th, 1999 Nitro. A convoluted mess all so he got the Belt back while also cheapening Goldberg.
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