No Longer a Produceman
Dennis Stamp
Will Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse
Evolving into Geckoman
Posts: 4,413
|
Post by No Longer a Produceman on Nov 26, 2020 10:09:08 GMT -5
The only thing ‘Ol Sweatsock drew was flies
|
|
|
Post by The Thread Barbi on Nov 26, 2020 10:51:00 GMT -5
It was trying to get Shawn over as a face. Despite it feeling like this is Vince's MO only recently, he has been trying to push who he thought was the face of the company at it's detriment longer than people give him credit for. Pre injury HBK was not a good babyface, and putting him with a face manager was something that just didn't work for him. Lothario was there to make Shawn look like a human being. Vince knew he'd f***ed up when he let Bret go off on hiatus after Wrestlemania XII because Bret was far more of a draw than Shawn ever was, even then. Despite the effort, mid-1990s Shawn wasn't playing ball with any of it. His public treatment of Jose, the man who purportedly trained him, was atrocious in contrast to the narrative we got about Bret and his father. It didn't play well with the long-term wrestling fans who "got" the tradition of mentor and protegee; it didn't go over well even with casual fans who likely wondered why Shawn was ignoring this old man and treating him with such contempt. It was not a good look for Shawn and it might have sealed his fate with many in the back. Just shows why Vince McMahon was failing in the mid-90s, and even now. He went from trying to create the next Hogan, to trying to create the next Hart with Michaels 1st run. He couldn't step away from the previous cash cow. Even now, he's subtlety looking for the next Austin.
|
|
auph10imitated
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 4,951
|
Post by auph10imitated on Nov 26, 2020 11:25:07 GMT -5
Terribly forgttable, but yeah I get the idea, the whole Rocky/Mickey thing, or even Bob Backlund/Arnold Skaaland - the old time trainer/manager and the young gun, the issue was no one had a bloody clue who Jose Lothario was and they did nothing to make us care.
It may have worked had they done this with Bret & Stu Hart, but Bret didnt need it.
|
|
|
Post by jason1980s on Nov 26, 2020 11:44:43 GMT -5
By all accounts Ol' Sweatsock was one of those archetypical trainers who took Shawn's money, treated him like garbage and barely taught him anything. Stu Hart he wasn't. That sucks then. If true, Shawn should have been man enough to tell Vince or even Jose to his face he didn't want him around. Or maybe Shawn being Shawn wanted to keep him on and embarrass him.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 26, 2020 11:46:01 GMT -5
By all accounts Ol' Sweatsock was one of those archetypical trainers who took Shawn's money, treated him like garbage and barely taught him anything. Stu Hart he wasn't. That sucks then. If true, Shawn should have been man enough to tell Vince or even Jose to his face he didn't want him around. Or maybe Shawn being Shawn wanted to keep him on and embarrass him. He may well have told Vince but you know how stubborn he can be.
|
|
|
Post by sungod2020 on Nov 26, 2020 13:07:17 GMT -5
What was Shawn's problem with Jose? If Jose trained him, wouldn't Shawn at least give him some gratitude in his actions? I get it's 1990s dick Shawn but still, he can't be nice to his trainer? Or was Jose a "take the money" type of guy and let some other trainee teach Shawn? Also, I hate seeing the end of WM 12 where Shawn says something to Earl Hebner and Earl, who looked uncomfortable doing so, told Jose something and he leaves the ring. Jose should have slapped Shawn in the face. Would Shawn fight back and ruin the show and what's Jose got to lose? He wasn't meant to be a long term employee. For the longest time I thought he was referring to Bret Hart to get out of the ring, but after watching the post-match celebration, it looked like it was meant towards Jose, which made it worse(unless he really was a "take the money and leave" type of guy). I would've loved to see him break kayfabe and attack Shawn for doing so, that would be hilarious. As far as using Lothario goes, it would've been okay if he showed up with Shawn on special occasions(like Wrestlemania, or a house show/televised show in Texas), but full-time wasn't necessary. There's nothing sexy about being accompanied by a senior citizen. BTW, was there any accounts on wheather or not Lothario directly train Michaels to be a wrestler? Are there any shoot interviews to see what their relationship was like. Did they make amends after Michaels became a born-again Christian?
|
|
|
Post by Andew9001 on Nov 26, 2020 19:06:54 GMT -5
The only thing Lothario did in his run that even resembled entertaining was that noise he made when Sid attacked him with the TV camera...and the crowd popped for it! That and his sons terrible acting of concern when he was taken to the back.
|
|
No Longer a Produceman
Dennis Stamp
Will Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse
Evolving into Geckoman
Posts: 4,413
|
Post by No Longer a Produceman on Nov 27, 2020 12:57:58 GMT -5
|
|
nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,767
|
Post by nisidhe on Nov 27, 2020 13:36:40 GMT -5
Terribly forgttable, but yeah I get the idea, the whole Rocky/Mickey thing, or even Bob Backlund/Arnold Skaaland - the old time trainer/manager and the young gun, the issue was no one had a bloody clue who Jose Lothario was and they did nothing to make us care. It may have worked had they done this with Bret & Stu Hart, but Bret didnt need it. Bret didn't need it because he already had it. It was played up to an extent during the build to his match with Davey Boy at Summerslam '92, his feud with Lawler, as well as in the run-up to his feud with Owen. Bret didn't need him at ringside all the time, because Stu was part of the legend built up around Bret Hart. Shawn didn't have that; he was this type who, supposedly, had so much talent that he didn't need to acknowledge his beginnings. The sudden appearance of this mentor with no previous backstory and no photos/footage of them together "back then" was somewhat disingenuous. There are photos of Bret and his father; there are photos out there of Benoit with Dynamite Kid. I know of none of Shawn and Jose together that weren't from 1995-6.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 27, 2020 13:44:51 GMT -5
The whole boyhood dream thing was a little forced given the HBK character had never been like that at all previously. Even the year prior when he was going for the title as well it was never portrayed that way. I know he was a heel at 11, but still.
|
|
|
Post by protuberance on Nov 27, 2020 14:41:03 GMT -5
On the podcast Bruce Pritchard talks about how he and Patterson wanted to make Shawn a babyface in 94-95. Vince always saw him as a heel, but he changed his mind after Shawn got cheers against Diesel at Mania 11.
The problem, I think, was that Diesel was just a bland babyface, not that Shawn was miscast as a heel, and then the babyface Shawn in 95-96 was forced down our throats. In my opinion, once Shawn went heel at Summerslam 97, he finally had a fitting character back.
|
|
|
Post by romanstylesiii on Nov 27, 2020 14:52:33 GMT -5
On the podcast Bruce Pritchard talks about how he and Patterson wanted to make Shawn a babyface in 94-95. Vince always saw him as a heel, but he changed his mind after Shawn got cheers against Diesel at Mania 11. The problem, I think, was that Diesel was just a bland babyface, not that Shawn was miscast as a heel, and then the babyface Shawn in 95-96 was forced down our throats. In my opinion, once Shawn went heel at Summerslam 97, he finally had a fitting character back. with the exception of the attitude era, Vince has a bad habit of taking away all the personality of top guys when they turn face.
|
|
Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
Posts: 15,819
|
Post by Pushed to the Moon on Nov 27, 2020 15:14:43 GMT -5
If I was an adult at the time I might have thought it was weird having this random old guy following HBK around but as a kid I just accepted him as HBK's trainer and didn't think anything of it. I don't think I had an opinion on him one way or the other. I think I just accepted everything back then haha.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Nov 29, 2020 20:56:51 GMT -5
This was the greatest thread in FAN history.
|
|
|
Post by jason1980s on Nov 29, 2020 21:37:16 GMT -5
They should have just made up the trainer gimmick, found an old school guy with a little personality and paired him with Shawn. Pre-internet boom it could have worked better than Shawn and Jose. Anyone would have been a better choice, even Coach John Tolos. Captain Lou would have been my pick given his personality and him being able to get over as a face. As a kid I always thought Sherri's song lyrics were "Captain Lou" rather than "he's got the moves" on the 1992-1993 Shawn theme.
|
|
SmashTV
Dennis Stamp
Big Money, Big Prizes, I Love It!
The Excellence of Allocation
Posts: 4,517
|
Post by SmashTV on Nov 30, 2020 3:31:21 GMT -5
This was the greatest thread in FAN history. This thread and the Todd thread were what inspired me to join FAN after years of lurking. I’ve no regrets.
|
|
Glitch
Grimlock
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,787
|
Post by Glitch on Nov 30, 2020 3:49:49 GMT -5
Jesus christ, I had to pause for a moment in order to stop laughing at this. I haven't laughed like this in a long time.
|
|
|
Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Nov 30, 2020 7:54:24 GMT -5
This was the greatest thread in FAN history. Agreed! Clearly the most entertainment Lothario has ever been responsible for
|
|
|
Post by The Thread Barbi on Nov 30, 2020 8:56:52 GMT -5
So let me get this straight - someone in WWE thought the answer to WCW was a male stripper paired with a senior citizen???
Vince McMahon, who promoted characters over good workers, really thought the HBK character would draw?
|
|
fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,760
|
Post by fw91 on Nov 30, 2020 10:32:44 GMT -5
What’s with the Shawn was a bad baby face take? Before Lothario showed up, I thought he was very over with the crowd, especially in 95 when he climbing up the card.
|
|