Shark
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Post by Shark on Dec 12, 2020 17:55:22 GMT -5
Lance Storm talked about a similar topic today on his podcast with Alvarez and it doesn't directly have to do with JR but it hits a similar note. He said that veterans in the sport need to do a better job at framing their constructive criticism at the younger talent. Too often he hears someone say "these kids don't know how to work, they're just doing a bunch of spots!" and he gets why some guys won't be receptive to being told the way they worked their whole career sucked. He acknowledged that some of the attitude probably comes from younger talent being jerks to the older guys when they do try to give actual advice but he wants the veterans to be the better men and take the first step. He noted that he prefers when wrestling has more psychology but he knows it's 2020 and fans want to see some cool shit and just wants everyone to find the great medium ground where you do some cool stuff but tone it down enough so that it can mean something and have a story behind it. This is why Lance is so well respected. He at least shows an understanding that stuff changes in wrestling and that there's a better way to reach younger talent than just telling them they're stupid. I'm also wondering if JR's problem with the dive spot isn't the spot itself, but the way it's shot. If we didn't see the people gathering before the spot, I don't think we'd really have a problem with it.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 12, 2020 18:03:53 GMT -5
At the same time what’s the opposite? Nobody can use these moves because someone used it as their finisher twenty years ago. That’s why a lot finishers these days even look boringly underwelming or overly complicated. I’m surprised he’s not complaining about the amount of cutters being used in AEW these days. The quick solution to all this is to let the wrestlers use whatever moves they do best and gets them the best responses. Besides, it can’t be that hard to tell the story that Moxley and Jericho have honed their DDT and back elbow strike finishers where they can KO other wrestlers more easily than other fighters who use the same moves. Same idea with Flair’s Figure Four and the Rock’s elbow.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 12, 2020 18:15:06 GMT -5
So I'm not aware of Jim Ross's sexist comments because I'm results-reading only for all of pro wrestling for a few years now, can someone tell me exactly what he said? In roughly the past year and a half he's -joked about 'happy endings' during an either tag or trios match mostly made up of Japanese women -made a sleazy joke about wanting to see Anna Jay have a wardrobe malfunction -mentioned 'bake sales' during an AEW Heels plug And then been a turd on twitter when called out on them. Yea, and that's why people are pissed Instead of owning to a slip up, it's nah f*** you, you geeks kiss my ass
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Dec 12, 2020 18:22:39 GMT -5
In roughly the past year and a half he's -joked about 'happy endings' during an either tag or trios match mostly made up of Japanese women -made a sleazy joke about wanting to see Anna Jay have a wardrobe malfunction -mentioned 'bake sales' during an AEW Heels plug And then been a turd on twitter when called out on them. I remember how he kept repeating that Riho is 100 pounds. That’s sexist?! I mean, when you are going up against someone like Nyla Rose, I think furthers the “David vs. Goliath” story.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 12, 2020 18:26:11 GMT -5
I remember how he kept repeating that Riho is 100 pounds. That’s sexist?! I mean, when you are going up against someone like Nyla Rose, I think furthers the “David vs. Goliath” story. It's less the specific thing than a general pattern of him saying immensely awkward things talking about women's bodies in ways that he just doesn't talk about men's. Leyla Hirsch's matches have featured him trying to sound appropriate mentioning her smallness and like...he doesn't cross lines with her, but it always sounds like he is way too fixated on the subject while Excalibur tries to put over her skills.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Dec 12, 2020 18:42:49 GMT -5
At the same time what’s the opposite? Nobody can use these moves because someone used it as their finisher twenty years ago. That’s why a lot finishers these days even look boringly underwelming or overly complicated. I’m surprised he’s not complaining about the amount of cutters being used in AEW these days. The quick solution to all this is to let the wrestlers use whatever moves they do best and gets them the best responses. Besides, it can’t be that hard to tell the story that Moxley and Jericho have honed their DDT and back elbow strike finishers where they can KO other wrestlers more easily than other fighters who use the same moves. Same idea with Flair’s Figure Four and the Rock’s elbow. I mean, that's really how the Judas Effect was introduced. They ran vignettes of Jericho in some MMA gym elbowing a punching bag, while his trainers put over his skills on BTE and social media (since AEW didn't have TV at this point), and then he killed Omega with it at Double or Nothing. We can presume other guys who use back elbows aren't doing this in kayfabe. Like Andrade could knock guys out with his elbow, but he prefers to focus on refining his Hammerlock DDT.
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Dec 12, 2020 19:33:42 GMT -5
At the same time what’s the opposite? Nobody can use these moves because someone used it as their finisher twenty years ago. That’s why a lot finishers these days even look boringly underwelming or overly complicated. I’m surprised he’s not complaining about the amount of cutters being used in AEW these days. I didn't feel that responding to it was worth it because it was kind of off topic, but someone in another thread said the other day that noone else should ever use the Stunner as a finisher (or, presumably, as a regular move) because of Austin. Like moves should be retired because one wrestler became sufficiently famous. It struck me as such a silly way to view things. Like wouldn't we eventually run out of moves that way? What finishers are retired in this person's mind, just the Stunner? Or also the leg drog (to be fair, there are health related reasons to maybe not do that move anymore, lol)? The Rock Bottom? The FU/AA? The Figure Four? The Sharpshooter? Damn thats two of an already limited number of submission moves you can't do. Just really weird to me. And by that logic, Austin wouldn't have been able to use the Stunner to begin with, because he cribbed that from Mikey Whipwreck. Mick Foley got the butterfly DDT from Kenta Kobashi. Virtually none of the top names in the business invented their own finishers.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 12, 2020 19:35:29 GMT -5
I didn't feel that responding to it was worth it because it was kind of off topic, but someone in another thread said the other day that noone else should ever use the Stunner as a finisher (or, presumably, as a regular move) because of Austin. Like moves should be retired because one wrestler became sufficiently famous. It struck me as such a silly way to view things. Like wouldn't we eventually run out of moves that way? What finishers are retired in this person's mind, just the Stunner? Or also the leg drog (to be fair, there are health related reasons to maybe not do that move anymore, lol)? The Rock Bottom? The FU/AA? The Figure Four? The Sharpshooter? Damn thats two of an already limited number of submission moves you can't do. Just really weird to me. And by that logic, Austin wouldn't have been able to use the Stunner to begin with, because he cribbed that from Mikey Whipwreck. Mick Foley got the butterfly DDT from Kenta Kobashi. Virtually none of the top names in the business invented their own finishers. hell no one would be able to use things like the IRISH WHIP... which as a finisher at one point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 19:41:32 GMT -5
And by that logic, Austin wouldn't have been able to use the Stunner to begin with, because he cribbed that from Mikey Whipwreck. Mick Foley got the butterfly DDT from Kenta Kobashi. Virtually none of the top names in the business invented their own finishers. hell no one would be able to use things like the IRISH WHIP... which as a finisher at one point. Big Show used a punch as a finisher, no punching anymore.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 12, 2020 19:43:10 GMT -5
I remember how he kept repeating that Riho is 100 pounds. That’s sexist?! I mean, when you are going up against someone like Nyla Rose, I think furthers the “David vs. Goliath” story. He'd say it in any match she was in, not just ones with Nyla. But even without being inherently sexist, it speaks to bigger trends of how dismissive he is over the women, and especially Japanese women. I wouldn't call his comments burying Tokyo Joshi Pro when Excalibur tried to put over Thunder Rosa being a champion there bluntly sexist, but the comment did speak to a dismissiveness of a woman's accomplishments in another company that stands in contrast to him talking up college sports records that the wrestlers in the ring didn't even have a stake in. Ross has a responsibility as a voice of the product and when the women are in the ring, he consistently either buries it or makes it weird. Both of these issues are related.
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 12, 2020 20:01:26 GMT -5
The concept that I agree with JR’s comments on is that I want certain moves to mean something. When they do outside the firing spots repeatedly, they mean less and less. So, the booking balances the big spot in a race against itself from becoming homogenized.
What he states poorly is making a “these kids today” kind of point.
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Post by Tyrannosaurus Sex on Dec 12, 2020 20:01:47 GMT -5
JR: "The day that I can’t keep up or articulate what we’re seeing, when I can’t process the stories talents are telling, I’ll quit."
Also JR: "Evolution of the business is BS."
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Blindkarevik
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Post by Blindkarevik on Dec 12, 2020 20:14:11 GMT -5
That's JR's opinion and it's perfectly valid, even he has recognized that it's just his opinion and isn't likely to create change within the company. But at the same time, not everyone likes the same thing... it's the way it is. It doesn't mean he won't put the spot over when necessary because he's a company man and will do his job, regardless if he likes what he's seeing personally. At the same time, Excalibur is there specifically to call those indie spots as that's the school he does come from. You need opposing viewpoints within a company to come together and thrive....
I don't think he singled Cutler out... I just think it was Cutler having some fun with it much like how BTE pokes fun at mistakes and complaints on the show. They've never shied away from acknowledging missteps and opposing opinions, and nobody has any obligation to heed the advice either. It's just JR stating an opinion, it's something that frustrates him with the business and he's entitled to that.
If I were to complain about something, I'd say how Moxley's title reign killed him dead for me. It had nothing to do with COVID or anything like that.... it's the simple fact that he hadn't taken a clean loss up to that point and I absolutely HATE win streaks because it can book a person into a corner. I feel like people in the middle of a streak tend to become the defacto winner in many cases just because people get scared and think, "I dunno.. is this REALLY the guy who should beat him NOW?" then have the guy with the streak win as the safe booking bet. Had Moxley lost a few matches clean beforehand, I would've probably been extremely on board with his title run because anytime he went against someone.. there felt like a chance he could be dethroned. But again... that's my personal opinion, granted I'm nowhere near in a business so it's not like anybody looks for, respects, or even needs my opinion... but it's just a trope in wrestling I can't stand. However, other people love win streaks.... it's a proven method for getting somebody over, keeping them over and strong, and if the crowd's still reacting... why not do it?
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Post by THE FVNKER on Dec 12, 2020 21:26:31 GMT -5
I can honestly agree with him when he talks about the guys doing entirely too many match ending moves, and high impact spots. It really does tend to suck out any of the believability in the match. But I guess the underlying question is.. does anyone in this day and age watch and suspend their disbelief in it being "real", or are they actually watching to see these guys be hyper-athletic? Whatever the answer to that is, is the most important question.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 22:33:19 GMT -5
What JR is going on about, I think, is the diminishing returns of doing certain things repeatedly.
While I stand by my earlier comments that he could just as easily do his job and do a kayfabe explanation about why this is a finisher and this isn't, I'm willing to play devil's advocate about a few things.
-Seriously, everybody dives to the outside. Suicide dives certainly don't seem all that suicidal if you see at least 4 of them a show.
-"100 pounds"... eh, I'm willing to let this one go. He's just pointing out the size and weight discrepancy between Riho and her opponent. Ties into the tried-and-true trope of David vs. Goliath. Happy Endings and all that other shit he can miss me with.
-Finisher spam is a thing. If Kenny hits the OWA, it's over. That's it. Okada managed to get a rope break on it, but that's the only out that it's ever had. SOME things should be sacred, and it falls on the talent to protect their finisher. Scott Hall is somewhat famous for saying that he never used the Razor's Edge unless it was for the pin. I'm not saying that a kickout of a finisher ruins the business, but it should be reserved for special moments.
In short, I kinda/sorta get what JR is saying, but he's got to find a way to be less of a salty old codger in terms of how he communicates it. That's why younger talent roll their eyes at him and stare off into the distance.
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Post by salvatoresincere on Dec 12, 2020 23:13:01 GMT -5
I don't think JR wants to ban superkicks and DDTs, he was just using those moves as metaphors to highlight a huge problem. TH2 vs Young Bucks is a glaring example of a wrestling style that is excessive and proven to not be sustainable long-term. Ok so maybe a superkick doesn't finish a match anymore in 2020, but a 450 splash certainly should! A poison-rama? The reverse hurricarana thingy? That should end it! The Indytaker on the floor should end it! After seeing 10 finishers in a 10 minute match, honestly who cares what the end result is? If they tone it down just a little bit, everybody benefits!
And I agree with the previous poster who said that maybe JR forfeited the right to speak these truths when he signed on to work for the Young Bucks. He knew exactly where he was going and what he was getting into.
Last thing, for those calling JR a sexist pig, just wait until hell freezes over and Cornette comes to AEW, you ain't seen nuthin yet!
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Dec 13, 2020 0:38:54 GMT -5
Eh, that spot does suck. Especially when everyone is just waiting around looking up. It’s overplayed. Cant get mad at that.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Dec 13, 2020 0:51:07 GMT -5
I dont like the dives myself but its doing great in the ratings, I much prefer Tim Thatcher style of wrestling, but its a massive ratings killer. So AEW should definitely stick to what brought them to the dance
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Post by Fake Jesus on Dec 13, 2020 3:40:47 GMT -5
That’s sexist?! I mean, when you are going up against someone like Nyla Rose, I think furthers the “David vs. Goliath” story. It's less the specific thing than a general pattern of him saying immensely awkward things talking about women's bodies in ways that he just doesn't talk about men's. Leyla Hirsch's matches have featured him trying to sound appropriate mentioning her smallness and like...he doesn't cross lines with her, but it always sounds like he is way too fixated on the subject while Excalibur tries to put over her skills. There are many legitimate criticisms of Jim Ross's commentary on the women, but he does this with Jack Perry, Starks, Allin etc. Especially with Jungle Boy every time he's out there JR is repeating lines about how he'll have to start putting on mass etc
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Rave
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Post by Rave on Dec 13, 2020 4:17:55 GMT -5
It's less the specific thing than a general pattern of him saying immensely awkward things talking about women's bodies in ways that he just doesn't talk about men's. Leyla Hirsch's matches have featured him trying to sound appropriate mentioning her smallness and like...he doesn't cross lines with her, but it always sounds like he is way too fixated on the subject while Excalibur tries to put over her skills. There are many legitimate criticisms of Jim Ross's commentary on the women, but he does this with Jack Perry, Starks, Allin etc. Especially with Jungle Boy every time he's out there JR is repeating lines about how he'll have to start putting on mass etc He can't even be bothered to get the dude's ring name right. It's Jungle Boy, not "Jungle Jack" or "Jungle Boy Jack Perry". He used to do pretty much the same thing during his New Japan run (Marty "Shurll", among others) and it's pretty disrespectful on his part.
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