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Post by Cyno on Dec 15, 2020 22:23:23 GMT -5
Yeah, the three hours drag and Vince probably hates it from a production standpoint. It also drags down the overall rating, though funnily enough, the 8PM hour used to be the "dead hour" for quite sometime until it just sorta shifted to the 10 PM hour. Raw's 2 hour runtime was 9 through 11PM. But even Raw's worst rating outperforms anything else on USA IIRC, so they're not going to just throw that away.
But with WWE's vast roster of talent, I think they could do more to structure the show so it doesn't drag so much. As dumb as that Raw Underground thing was, I think they had a good idea in theory in making the third hour feel "different." Just... not that.
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Post by theironyuppie on Dec 15, 2020 22:32:17 GMT -5
I get the idea that three hours every week isn't particularly easy to sell to people, but given the enormous size of WWE's overall roster and diversity of talent I don't really see why they can't structure Raw in such a way that they don't come off like they're spamming the same people, matches, and angles every week. I look back on Nitro and, yeah, they didn't end up sustaining three hour shows either, but there was a good stretch where you could kind of see the semblance of a structure in what they were going for (e.g. certain segments seemed tailored for the cruiserweights or whatever else). In a promotion like WWE with an ungodly amount of talent available, that feels like it should be doable. Like, there’s no reason that RAW needs to have the same wrestlers in three major segments. Take AJ Styles, The Miz and John Morrison this week, for example. They had the promo at the start of the show, which led into a two segment match for Styles. Miz and Morrison then had a backstage promo leading to their own two segment match. Then Styles was in the promo at the end of the show, eventually beating down McIntyre with the help of... Miz and Morrison. Why can’t at least ONE of those be trimmed, if not two? Does Styles really need TWO promos AND a long match? Would we really be THAT offended by a five-minute match for like Peyton Royce or Gran Metalik or someone to at least TRY and get some semblance of a ball rolling for them? Royce pinned BAYLEY at Survivor Series, has she even been on RAW since?
Given the way she tapped to Natalya shortly afterwards, that Royce pin just felt like a 'moment' with no follow-up, even though as you say it could have been something more.
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Post by 06vwgti on Dec 15, 2020 23:37:14 GMT -5
I get the idea that three hours every week isn't particularly easy to sell to people, but given the enormous size of WWE's overall roster and diversity of talent I don't really see why they can't structure Raw in such a way that they don't come off like they're spamming the same people, matches, and angles every week. I look back on Nitro and, yeah, they didn't end up sustaining three hour shows either, but there was a good stretch where you could kind of see the semblance of a structure in what they were going for (e.g. certain segments seemed tailored for the cruiserweights or whatever else). In a promotion like WWE with an ungodly amount of talent available, that feels like it should be doable. Like, there’s no reason that RAW needs to have the same wrestlers in three major segments. Take AJ Styles, The Miz and John Morrison this week, for example. They had the promo at the start of the show, which led into a two segment match for Styles. Miz and Morrison then had a backstage promo leading to their own two segment match. Then Styles was in the promo at the end of the show, eventually beating down McIntyre with the help of... Miz and Morrison. Why can’t at least ONE of those be trimmed, if not two? Does Styles really need TWO promos AND a long match? Would we really be THAT offended by a five-minute match for like Peyton Royce or Gran Metalik or someone to at least TRY and get some semblance of a ball rolling for them? Royce pinned BAYLEY at Survivor Series, has she even been on RAW since? I've been thinking about this since the move to 3 hours with poor allocation of time especially with the size of their roster. Pre-pandemic, one of my complaints was why are there so many people sitting at home not doing anything, and how can creative have nothing for you to do, yet raw is 3 hours.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
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Post by thehottag on Dec 16, 2020 4:27:19 GMT -5
why are there so many people sitting at home not doing anything, and how can creative have nothing for you to do, yet raw is 3 hours. The way the show is created, there's no way it can be anything else. Having the show totally overseen & controlled by one 70 year old man, who often writes the show THE DAY THAT IT AIRS, it's actually staggering it makes air in any form at all. For WWE to improve, they need to do any of the following: - cut the show from 3 hours (a non-starter, because as we've said, they need the TV money) - write in advance with forethought & planning - allow the wrestlers to have more control over their segments, matches & characters I remember the fall of WCW so well, because I remember watching it every week. I would shake my head & think 'how on earth can it be so bad?', watching the old guys taking up spots whilst the majority of the bloated roster were relegated to bit-part nobodies. The storylines would get dropped without warning or reason, & others would make no sense at all. Bad guys would be victorious over & over again, sapping the energy of the audience. Three hours of the same filler every week, with the same wrestlers in the same roles. Shows being written whilst they were on the air live. And I remember being told that there's absolutely no way this company could ever die, that there was too much money behind it, & that it did really good ratings compared to other things on the network (sound familiar?)
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,506
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 16, 2020 5:06:12 GMT -5
All the focus for ratings dropping is focused on the on-screen product but I wonder how much of the drop is due to their offscreen actions.
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Post by 06vwgti on Dec 16, 2020 8:23:55 GMT -5
why are there so many people sitting at home not doing anything, and how can creative have nothing for you to do, yet raw is 3 hours. The way the show is created, there's no way it can be anything else. Having the show totally overseen & controlled by one 70 year old man, who often writes the show THE DAY THAT IT AIRS, it's actually staggering it makes air in any form at all. For WWE to improve, they need to do any of the following: - cut the show from 3 hours (a non-starter, because as we've said, they need the TV money) - write in advance with forethought & planning - allow the wrestlers to have more control over their segments, matches & characters I remember the fall of WCW so well, because I remember watching it every week. I would shake my head & think 'how on earth can it be so bad?', watching the old guys taking up spots whilst the majority of the bloated roster were relegated to bit-part nobodies. The storylines would get dropped without warning or reason, & others would make no sense at all. Bad guys would be victorious over & over again, sapping the energy of the audience. Three hours of the same filler every week, with the same wrestlers in the same roles. Shows being written whilst they were on the air live. And I remember being told that there's absolutely no way this company could ever die, that there was too much money behind it, & that it did really good ratings compared to other things on the network (sound familiar?) Good insight and I agree, the parallels are really similar between the two. I guess I was being an optimist thinking the move to 3 hours would give the undercard stuff to do and expand feuds, boy was I wrong lol
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 16, 2020 9:12:31 GMT -5
Biggest issue for Raw is that its just flat out boring. Very little matters and while it's not as bad as it was at the start of the pandemic, far too often it feels like the same thing happens every week.
Not every angle has to be a long one. You can tell simple stories in a couple weeks. But you need a clear narrative... and raw lacks that
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Post by dayman11111 on Dec 16, 2020 10:54:51 GMT -5
Yeah I know people don't like AEW talk being brought in, but Dynamite beat all three hours of RAW this week in 18-49 demo. Even if it's just one week, that's huge, that's absolutely huge, and there's no way TNT isn't looking at that. For the company to be a year old and accomplish that in the pandemic era is incredible. Back to RAW, I get there was a really good Monday Night Football Game on, but that game didn't get REAL GOOD till the 4th. That doesn't excuse the show opening flat and then dying a death. The show flat out has been some cheeks for awhile now, and now they're spinning their wheels till the Rumble, with an obvious, quite boring TLC Card, fans are tuning out, and they're tuning out in ways that delivers WWE all time record low numbers. Just saying every time we think we hit the devoted fanbase or rock bottom, they show they can lose more fans, and I would not be shocked if a number like this makes Vince panic and promise something like Stone Cold next week for no reason. Talk about moving the goalposts. Yay our tv show had a very slightly bigger select audience watching on a completely different day. What's that? All 3 hours of raw had more total viewers than Dynamite and they were up against the biggest show on tv? but but but le demo you guys. Not like advertisers give a shit cause they think wrestling fans are poor and everything thenewswheel.com/dodges-heel-promo-wrestling-fans-are-poor-and-trashy/If A&W was so fantastic or refreshing or whatever word used to describe it, why don't they air Mondays against football? Also why do aew fans say nxt isnt competition and yet still want it moved to a different day? Not like nxt has that spot before aew was a thing. Finally, why is it a good thing that aew had to rely on a 60 year old part timer and a celebrity for ratings, but when wwe does it, its shit?
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 16, 2020 11:02:04 GMT -5
The interesting thing when there’s a “shockingly low” rating, for me at least, is seeing what happens as far as changes go as I like when they get their backs against the wall and shake things up (usually).
I can see the return of Triple H and Steph to TV, maybe Rousey comes in for the Rumble and build to Mania, maybe Brock returns. All of those things would make Raw much more interesting on a week to week basis for me.
Maybe the return of Sheriff Austin or Commissioner HBK to run things.
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Post by Alyce: Old Media Enthusiast on Dec 16, 2020 11:08:03 GMT -5
"This is somehow Baron Corbin's fault"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 11:45:49 GMT -5
So saw these supposed rumors this morning and feels fitting with the conversation on this thread and pretty sure should ammount to some chuckles especially coming off of a record low show.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 16, 2020 11:47:27 GMT -5
All the focus for ratings dropping is focused on the on-screen product but I wonder how much of the drop is due to their offscreen actions. I think one feeds into the other. If WWE had a better on-screen product, it'd be a lot easier for people to make excuses for their shitty off-screen actions and justify keep watching. Likewise, I think it'd be easier to continue justify watching them, even through the product is such a creative slump, if Vince McMahon wasn't approaching cartoon supervillain levels of badness.
But hell, we have people who acknowledge the product is awful and that the company is evil and still watch because... reasons?
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 16, 2020 12:01:33 GMT -5
All the focus for ratings dropping is focused on the on-screen product but I wonder how much of the drop is due to their offscreen actions. I think one feeds into the other. If WWE had a better on-screen product, it'd be a lot easier for people to make excuses for their shitty off-screen actions and justify keep watching. Likewise, I think it'd be easier to continue justify watching them, even through the product is such a creative slump, if Vince McMahon wasn't approaching cartoon supervillain levels of badness.
But hell, we have people who acknowledge the product is awful and that the company is evil and still watch because... reasons? Product is not awful, but Raw can be a bit stale/boring at times. Smackdown is fantastic. NXT is usually at least solid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 12:13:04 GMT -5
So saw these supposed rumors this morning and feels fitting with the conversation on this thread and pretty sure should ammount to some chuckles especially coming off of a record low show. Even though I miss the IIconics, the Lacey and Peyton stuff has been very entertaining. There's no reason for it to not be on TV, especially on a three hour show.
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Post by Harry The Arrow was Wrong! on Dec 16, 2020 12:18:16 GMT -5
A well deserved rating. This show was goddamn awful. Like nothing about Raw is fun. All of my favourite wrestlers are just being wasted so I really don't care anymore.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 16, 2020 14:10:05 GMT -5
So saw these supposed rumors this morning and feels fitting with the conversation on this thread and pretty sure should ammount to some chuckles especially coming off of a record low show. All they ever do is "reactionary decisions", and nothing ever changes. Until WWE realizes it'll take a long, slow rebuilding process if they want to reinvigorate their image and potentially draw back lapsed fans and draw in new ones, nothing will really change. Granted, their nature as a publicly traded company might make such a process untenable on some level, but it's just reality.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 16, 2020 16:28:19 GMT -5
Yeah I know people don't like AEW talk being brought in, but Dynamite beat all three hours of RAW this week in 18-49 demo. Even if it's just one week, that's huge, that's absolutely huge, and there's no way TNT isn't looking at that. For the company to be a year old and accomplish that in the pandemic era is incredible. Back to RAW, I get there was a really good Monday Night Football Game on, but that game didn't get REAL GOOD till the 4th. That doesn't excuse the show opening flat and then dying a death. The show flat out has been some cheeks for awhile now, and now they're spinning their wheels till the Rumble, with an obvious, quite boring TLC Card, fans are tuning out, and they're tuning out in ways that delivers WWE all time record low numbers. Just saying every time we think we hit the devoted fanbase or rock bottom, they show they can lose more fans, and I would not be shocked if a number like this makes Vince panic and promise something like Stone Cold next week for no reason. Talk about moving the goalposts. Yay our tv show had a very slightly bigger select audience watching on a completely different day. What's that? All 3 hours of raw had more total viewers than Dynamite and they were up against the biggest show on tv? but but but le demo you guys. Not like advertisers give a shit cause they think wrestling fans are poor and everything thenewswheel.com/dodges-heel-promo-wrestling-fans-are-poor-and-trashy/If A&W was so fantastic or refreshing or whatever word used to describe it, why don't they air Mondays against football? Also why do aew fans say nxt isnt competition and yet still want it moved to a different day? Not like nxt has that spot before aew was a thing. Finally, why is it a good thing that aew had to rely on a 60 year old part timer and a celebrity for ratings, but when wwe does it, its shit? Well instead of bucking for an argument like you seem to want to be doing, going as far as insulting AEW for no reason, I'll just give you a proper response because this stuff has been said over and over again. Nothing about this is "Moving Goalposts", AEW getting a better demo vs RAW was a big deal. RAW's always been up against MNF, even if it was a good game (Which didn't truly happen till the 4th quarter when Cleveland made its comeback) it's not an excuse. RAW's been on the decline all year and AEW's been on the steady rise all year. Look at their numbers and charts. They were doing well before Sting and before Shaq, they didn't need them, but they put them on the show to help try and put over OTHER talent. Shaq was there to put Jade over, Sting is clearly there to help elevate others as well like Darby Allin. The difference between that and WWE, is WWE brings in "old guys" for them to win the top title and be the main focus, and BEAT younger talent, there's a big difference there, and AEW has done a good job maximizing the legends they bring on to the show to compliment their featured talent, not overshadow them. NXT was supposed to be on FS1. The move was made when AEW announced they were going to Wednesday, and that's been well reported. Don't know where this "NXT had Wednesday's first" argument is coming from, they basically just put the show on there a few weeks early to try and get out ahead of AEW and build their own show to kill them out the gate, and they failed. People want NXT to move because NXTs ratings have flatlined and the notion to try and keep AEW down in a brand war is ridiculous as this point. The reason it's happening though and probably wont change is USA's scared shitless of AEW getting better and better ratings and usurping RAW, even if that would be on a different day. Funny how your argument is it doesn't matter if it's on a different day, but the cable network clearly cares about if AEW's doing better numbers or demos than the show on Monday. Lastly, very simple why they don't run on Football days, The Khan's own the Jags, and they've made it very adamant they do not want to run against the NFL since they are a part of it, it has nothing to do with being scared of them. Aside from that, AEW has gone up against the biggest poltiical spectacle in years, Playoffs in both Baseball and Hockey, major NBA games, etc., ignoring the fact they've gone up against big time sports and events and held their own isn't fair.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 16:57:37 GMT -5
I thought they actually did a good job this year with the draft giving both shows a good mix of talent. But seriously smackdown is still enjoyable, but Raw is chore. How did they take all that talent and made it feel like every episode is a rerun.
Thats the thing too... theres nothing that makes raw and smackdown different. I know the networks want their own brands, but theres nothing that really sets them apart from each other. I would say end the brand split but they have done that before and Raw was still boring. I dunno they have 5 brands worth of talent but we see the same crap week after week.
They seriously need soft reboot. They really need a hard one but that will never happen.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Dec 16, 2020 17:22:09 GMT -5
Blame Baron Corbin again and promise changes but don't do anything.
That always works.
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Post by dangerousdanpotato on Dec 16, 2020 20:04:54 GMT -5
This is obviously Baron Corbin’s fault. ...What? He’s still on Smackdown?? ...My god, he’s spreading... Corbin-19. .... Sorry.
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