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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2021 17:16:43 GMT -5
That shit is crazy. I still thought of both of them as "new companies" until AEW came around.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jan 7, 2021 17:23:13 GMT -5
The sheer length of time that both have been around and a major part of the wrestling status quo really needs to be emphasized. Wrestling history from 1980 to 2001 is rich and filled with interesting things, but so is the history from 2001 to 2019 - whether that's ROH's combination of talent scouting and booking philosophy that informs WWE and AEW even now, or TNA writing several additional post-WCW chapters of "how not to run a wrestling promotion" in the 00's, or TNA's groundbreaking-at-the-time women's and tag wrestling, or ROH's emphasis on steady success over bigger success to both their benefit and detriment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2021 17:40:06 GMT -5
They were both formed in the vacuum left by WCW and ECW closing down. They have outlived those companies by many years, but never had made the lasting impact either of those ones had.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2021 17:48:38 GMT -5
They were both formed in the vacuum left by WCW and ECW closing down. They have outlived those companies by many years, but never had made the lasting impact either of those ones had. Interesting statement. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree. The real question is whether ROH's contributions to the industry over the past 19 years have meant more than ECW's did. I'd honestly say ROH and TNA/Impact have probably produced more actual talent that went on to do more things and make bigger money throughout the industry as a whole, and for a longer period of time, than ECW did. They've also outlasted both WCW and ECW. I'd say WCW was the most influential of all of them, due to changing the game during the Monday Night War era. But yeah, I'd say in terms of being influential and having a lasting impact on the business... ROH and TNA providing the industry (during one general time period) with talents like Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Young Bucks, Kenny Omega, AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Christopher Daniels, Chris Hero, etc. I would rank as more valuable long term than ECW giving the industry Tommy Dreamer, Public Enemy, Sandman, Sabu, RVD, Raven, etc.
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Post by eJm on Jan 7, 2021 17:55:10 GMT -5
I'd honestly say ROH and TNA/Impact have probably produced more actual talent that went on to do more things and make bigger money throughout the industry as a whole, and for a longer period of time, than ECW did. I feel like this is a big thing that will probably get more appreciated in years gone by. Like, if you look at any average WWE in the past decade or AEW card at all, you can count the talent that made a big impact in TNA or ROH. Hell, Undisputed Era is just ROH guys. The only other promotions that probably had close to as much influence on modern American wrestling are PWG and CHIKARA. Like, they might not have had glamorous shows or big budgets as WCW or the rebellious edge ECW had but you'd be remiss to ignore the obvious influences.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jan 7, 2021 20:04:30 GMT -5
It's amazing how their successes were fueled by WWE just refusing to hire the clearly talented guys on their rosters. Just look at the laundry list of big dudes who washed out over the years in their system. They eventually got around to bringing in guys like Joe and AJ, but it took them way longer than it should have.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2021 20:18:06 GMT -5
They were both formed in the vacuum left by WCW and ECW closing down. They have outlived those companies by many years, but never had made the lasting impact either of those ones had. Interesting statement. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree. The real question is whether ROH's contributions to the industry over the past 19 years have meant more than ECW's did. I'd honestly say ROH and TNA/Impact have probably produced more actual talent that went on to do more things and make bigger money throughout the industry as a whole, and for a longer period of time, than ECW did. They've also outlasted both WCW and ECW. I'd say WCW was the most influential of all of them, due to changing the game during the Monday Night War era. But yeah, I'd say in terms of being influential and having a lasting impact on the business... ROH and TNA providing the industry (during one general time period) with talents like Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Young Bucks, Kenny Omega, AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Christopher Daniels, Chris Hero, etc. I would rank as more valuable long term than ECW giving the industry Tommy Dreamer, Public Enemy, Sandman, Sabu, RVD, Raven, etc. Yeah that’s why I kinda left the statement open ended. The early to mid 00s we’re kinda definitely an arms race for Indy wrestling.
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Post by 06vwgti on Jan 8, 2021 1:55:33 GMT -5
It's amazing how their successes were fueled by WWE just refusing to hire the clearly talented guys on their rosters. Just look at the laundry list of big dudes who washed out over the years in their system. They eventually got around to bringing in guys like Joe and AJ, but it took them way longer than it should have. It was such a weird era, especially reading the dirt sheets at the time and how WWE wanted (and still) want to train wrestlers from the ground up and not hire any indy talent because of "bad habits" they wanted them to unlearn.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jan 8, 2021 13:33:07 GMT -5
It's amazing how their successes were fueled by WWE just refusing to hire the clearly talented guys on their rosters. Just look at the laundry list of big dudes who washed out over the years in their system. They eventually got around to bringing in guys like Joe and AJ, but it took them way longer than it should have. Vince's approach to developmental is darkly hilarious in a way. All of the major Japanese promotions have figured out how to train everyone in-house...and that one of the steps is to send them somewhere else for a bit to deepen their game. Vince is too monopolistic to do that, and ironically, that may have significantly weakened WWE's effective monopoly on televised wrestling in the US.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 8, 2021 21:08:26 GMT -5
It's funny to think of them lasting so long when frankly neither really deserved to.
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jan 8, 2021 21:10:46 GMT -5
IIRC CZW started in 97 and IWA MS started in 96. Now sure IWA MS has shut down a few times. But CZW hasn't so far since 97.
THen one of the local indies started back in 94. Still runs at least 6 or so shows a year.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 9, 2021 16:48:50 GMT -5
It's funny to think of them lasting so long when frankly neither really deserved to. Such an odd statement. Didn't "deserve" to? Well, they have, and have provided programming for their fans and employment for their wrestlers for close to 20 years now. Despite what you feel they "deserved" to be able to do. What's odd about it? TNA/Impact may be experiencing a resurgence now but was incredibly fortunate not to go under in 2016 when it began losing viewers and talent, defaulted on the loan that had been keeping it afloat, and was found to owe enough unpaid taxes that there was a danger of the state seizing its property. ROH had a miserable 2019 with murmurs towards the end about its future, given the stories from the inside about treatment of talent, the way contract negotiations are handled, and poor buyrates and ticket sales; one suspects that it wouldn't exist now if it wasn't owned by a broadcaster who got cheap programming from it. They have both been extremely, laughably badly run at various points in their past and there are other companies that would have tanked in the same circumstances.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 9, 2021 18:17:51 GMT -5
Like, to me, I'm a wrestling fan. I like having multiple companies existing, providing me with shows, and seeing wrestlers that I like being able to make a living. I don't ever really think about how companies "don't deserve" to be in operation. I think you misunderstand me slightly. I don't want them to go under, but I think that both have gone through periods of being woefully mismanaged and have been in situations that would have spelled their end had they not been bailed out, and had they tanked then they would have been the architects of their own downfall. Others have gone down having got less wrong. This doesn't mean that I would have been glad if they did.
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Post by honsou on Jan 11, 2021 14:04:33 GMT -5
ROH's influence is really interesting while it never had a huge fan base it produced so many successful wrestlers and inspired so many people to become wrestlers. It reminds me of one of the quotes regarding The Velvet Underground, "The Velvet Underground didn’t sell many records, but everyone who bought one went out and started a band."
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Post by eJm on Jan 11, 2021 14:52:54 GMT -5
Also to add too, thinking about it a bit more;
Look at how many former TNA/Impact people WWE have signed over the last couple of years in various backstage roles
Jeff Jarrett Jeremy Borash Joseph Park Sonjay Dutt Sarah Stock (Sarita)
I might be forgetting people but WWE’s already using Jarrett for their Indian expansion since he actually has the experience, Borash is doing his thing with the cinematic matches, Dutt and Park have been on TV for over a decade so know what goes into putting those matches together and Stock is an added trainer to a deep PC experience pool.
Like, for as much as they were laughed off as rivals, the company at least sees that experience is beneficial in how people like JJ Dillan had backstage roles in WWE.
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Post by eJm on Jan 11, 2021 16:13:22 GMT -5
Also to add too, thinking about it a bit more; Look at how many former TNA/Impact people WWE have signed over the last couple of years in various backstage roles Jeff Jarrett Jeremy Borash Joseph Park Sonjay Dutt Sarah Stock (Sarita) I might be forgetting people but WWE’s already using Jarrett for their Indian expansion since he actually has the experience, Borash is doing his thing with the cinematic matches, Dutt and Park have been on TV for over a decade so know what goes into putting those matches together and Stock is an added trainer to a deep PC experience pool. Like, for as much as they were laughed off as rivals, the company at least sees that experience is beneficial in how people like JJ Dillan had backstage roles in WWE. Same general idea as why people like Adam Pearce and Sarah Amato, despite not being former WWE/WCW wrestlers, got office/producer jobs too. Though some fans may LOL at the idea of the smaller companies, the ones in charge of them have valuable experience. WWE hiring Jim Smallman and Shaun Ryan (the guy behind some of OTT’s videos that went viral for their big matches) for NXT UK show that someone at least recognizes what the scene is like to make that work (despite some of the stuff you could say about Smallman’s reaction to SpeakingOut but not really the thread to do that).
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Post by Cyno on Jan 11, 2021 16:28:49 GMT -5
I think ECW's lasting importance is a bit overstated by WWE revisionist history. Like, I'd certainly say ROH and TNA have had more lasting influence on the industry than ECW has, if only for the kind of talent pipeline they've provided to WWE and more recently, AEW.
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jan 11, 2021 18:17:16 GMT -5
I think ECW's lasting importance is a bit overstated by WWE revisionist history. Like, I'd certainly say ROH and TNA have had more lasting influence on the industry than ECW has, if only for the kind of talent pipeline they've provided to WWE and more recently, AEW. I feel that ECW's influence left a lasting impression on the indies, and is what shaped the landscape of pro-wrestling in America to this point. ECW's style of promoting shows focusing on the in ring product, with the idea that every match on the card could be a draw, has led to companies like CZW, MLW, ROH, PWG, etc., adapting that style. Fans hungry for a wrestling alternative in the void left by ECW, saw many of these smaller companies try to hook that fan-base. Some indies did it well, like ROH and CZW, while others did not, like XPW. Almost two decades went by before the same feel of a ROH show was copied and pasted and produced for the masses with NXT, and then AEW.
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Post by romanstylesiii on Jan 11, 2021 18:27:31 GMT -5
ROH, which is kinda the spiritual successer to ECW has now lasted double the length of ECW
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 11, 2021 18:37:21 GMT -5
Heyman always used to say ECW was to wrestling what Nirvana was to pop music, the stylistic influence died out eventually, but more importantly it challenged the status quo and the way things worked, and not only brought a bloated and irrelevant industry back down to earth and stripped back to basics, but showed there was room for an "alternative" after all those years of the hegemony of the NWA and then McMahon. The ECW style everyone knows has limited relevance in 2021, but the idea of an upstart promotion booting the self-important industry in the goolies and saying "Your way is shit" is as important as ever.
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