MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
Home of the 5-time, 5-time, 5-time, 5-time 5-time Super Bowl Champion 49ers-and Wrestlemania 31
Posts: 13,954
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jan 17, 2021 21:40:12 GMT -5
3 pages and nobody mentioned Verne Gagne refusing to give Hulk Hogan the AWA championship in 1983. He kept chasing and chasing, and the fans desperately wanted him to finally win it, but Verne stupidly decided that the money was only in the chase and not the catch. This gave WWF the edge to sign pro wrestling's hottest new star and help usher in their National expansion, while concurrently, leading to AWA's demise years later. Also, giving Jinder Mahal, a multi-year jobber, a 6 month WWE title run to bring in business in India. Needless to say it failed big time. And the reason Hogan was in AWA in the first place was Vince Sr. fired him because he felt his appearance in Rocky III exposed the business.
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Post by dynamitekidd on Jan 17, 2021 22:10:16 GMT -5
WCW hiring Jim Herd which led to a kind of mass exodus of top talent. Including Flair taking the belt with him to the WWF.
Vince buying WCW. Good business for him I guess but bad for business overall.
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Post by romanstylesiii on Jan 17, 2021 22:50:18 GMT -5
His rationale was that they had about 20 people on the roster with masks, compared to the WWE where Rey was one of 1-2 with a mask WCW was a reality based product and Eric believed everyone needed to get away from those old school wrestling characters. This is not MY opinion, just playing devil's advocate What a dumbass i mean WCW went from in the red to making $30m+ for 3 consecutive years. He did some things right
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Post by Aceorton on Jan 17, 2021 23:16:16 GMT -5
Arguably, the brand split. Every time it’s been done, back to the experimental NWO shoes. In effect, a company deliberately going into competition with itself. Brilliant. Came here to say this. Just a dumb idea all around. Suddenly you're not seeing a WWF (excuse me, WWE) show anymore - it's Raw or it's SmackDown, with both rosters down half the star power they had when it was one combined product. On top of that, every attempt to create "brand rivalry" since 2002 has been a joke. YOU ALL WORK FOR THE SAME COMPANY.
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Post by dynamitekidd on Jan 17, 2021 23:19:25 GMT -5
i mean WCW went from in the red to making $30m+ for 3 consecutive years. He did some things right Yeah it’s hard to defend him most of the time but the big stuff he did was huge. Nitro was a game changer. Getting Savage and Hogan was a really big deal, especially Hogan since nobody ever, ever thought he would go to WCW. The nwo. Putting the luchas over in prime time. The cruiserweight division was kinda groundbreaking.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Jan 17, 2021 23:20:47 GMT -5
3 pages and nobody mentioned Verne Gagne refusing to give Hulk Hogan the AWA championship in 1983. He kept chasing and chasing, and the fans desperately wanted him to finally win it, but Verne stupidly decided that the money was only in the chase and not the catch. This gave WWF the edge to sign pro wrestling's hottest new star and help usher in their National expansion, while concurrently, leading to AWA's demise years later. Also, giving Jinder Mahal, a multi-year jobber, a 6 month WWE title run to bring in business in India. Needless to say it failed big time. And the reason Hogan was in AWA in the first place was Vince Sr. fired him because he felt his appearance in Rocky III exposed the business. That's complete Hogan BS. Hogan left the WWF because his time was up, just as every other heel did. His usage was exactly consistent with the other in-and-out heels on the roster--you got a start date and an end date before you made your first TV shot.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Jan 17, 2021 23:22:30 GMT -5
How far could the AWA have gone if they gave Hogan the belt? What would a Hogan-less WWF look like? A title belt was not going to keep Hogan from jumping ship. Vince had the biggest markets in wrestling (besides Chicago) and had just made a play to take over the abandoned LA territory. Verne had nothing he could offer to match that.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 17, 2021 23:37:42 GMT -5
i mean WCW went from in the red to making $30m+ for 3 consecutive years. He did some things right Yea but that’s his rationale now still justifying that decision. Hence a dumb ass
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 18, 2021 0:27:24 GMT -5
i mean WCW went from in the red to making $30m+ for 3 consecutive years. He did some things right Yea but that’s his rationale now still justifying that decision. Hence a dumb ass He's lucky that Turner didn't give a shit about making a profit... if Turner did Bischoff would have been out on his ass before 96. the only thing Bischoff really knows how to do is spend millions of other people's money.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 18, 2021 0:50:47 GMT -5
Yea but that’s his rationale now still justifying that decision. Hence a dumb ass He's lucky that Turner didn't give a shit about making a profit... if Turner did Bischoff would have been out on his ass before 96. the only thing Bischoff really knows how to do is spend millions of other people's money. Right He was lucky in the fact Turner wasn't cheap with his purse strings. Yes, spend money to make money and he deserves credit for that but def not like he took $1 and flipped it to $100 off grit and will He turned a profit and didn't know how to keep turning that profit except throwing more money
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Post by Sparvid on Jan 18, 2021 2:39:36 GMT -5
Hotshotting the Invasion angle in 2001, a year before they could sign any major names. Hell, WWF '01 is ripe with bad business moves. When you go back and watch it, it's absurd how quickly things moved when they had years worth of storylines at their disposal: July 2nd: Buff/Booker match July 9th: First ever WCW/WWF match, ECW debuts, ECW/WCW form alliance, Stephanie is revealed as ECW owner (this all happened in 30 minutes) July 16th: Austin turns face July 22nd: Austin turns heel again And to add to that: July 2nd: Tacoma, WA July 9th: Atlanta July 16th: Providence, RI July 22nd: Cleveland (PPV) July 23rd: Buffalo July 30th: Philadelphia Maybe at least plan things ahead enough to do a major WCW angle in Atlanta and an ECW thing in Philadelphia..?
Also, giving Jinder Mahal, a multi-year jobber, a 6 month WWE title run to bring in business in India. Needless to say it failed big time. I still remember people here being incredulous to him being announced to be a part of the #1 contendership six-man match. Not him winning the title or even getting a title shot, but "Why on earth is he in a match which will determine the next challenger?"
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bob
Salacious Crumb
The "other" Bob. FOC COURSE!
started the Madness Wars, Proudly the #1 Nana Hater on FAN
Posts: 78,211
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Post by bob on Jan 18, 2021 10:00:19 GMT -5
Sgt. Slaughters heel turn and title run
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Post by jason1980s on Jan 18, 2021 10:22:42 GMT -5
It was stupid of Eric Bischoff to hire guys just to have them and if he did it, maybe he didn't, just to hire them so WWF wouldn't get them it was even more stupid. I'm talking late 1990s hires like John Nord, Mike Enos, Barry Darsow. They probably made more losing on the weekend shows in one year than they did all the years in WWF because Bischoff threw away money like it was nothing-because it wasn't his money.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 18, 2021 10:28:04 GMT -5
He's lucky that Turner didn't give a shit about making a profit... if Turner did Bischoff would have been out on his ass before 96. the only thing Bischoff really knows how to do is spend millions of other people's money. Right He was lucky in the fact Turner wasn't cheap with his purse strings. Yes, spend money to make money and he deserves credit for that but def not like he took $1 and flipped it to $100 off grit and will He turned a profit and didn't know how to keep turning that profit except throwing more money The only thing I'll say in fairness to Bischoff is that at the same time SCW was st its peak Time Warner and Turner Media were merging and Eric went from (generally) having free reign to having to follow much stricter standards and practices (Eric got in trouble because one promo they had got nixed judt because on wrestler called the other stupid) Again not to say Eric didn't have issues he created but having read Nitro by Guy Evans (and I highly suggest everybody read this if you get a chance). There were quite a few things that happened that Bischoff had no control over (including creative accounting). Also wanted to add to the Paul Heyman stuff. Not only did he screw up the TNN relationship on the first show, but he screwed up a lot of sponsors. Another book to look up if anybody gets a chance is Hardcore History which interviews a bunch of wrestlers and backstage people from ECW. There were people within ECW that made contact with venues and potential sponsors for ECW that would have helped ECW a lot. Maybe not make them super rich but they would have been in the black. Long story short Paul would either lie, no show, or turn down meetings with these sponsors, vendors, and venues because they were not his idea or vision to the point where by 2000 ECW was considered toxic in entertainment because nobody wanted to deal with Paul Heyman As of other moments? TNA's decision to run weekly ppvs. Company almost didn't make it 3 months with how much money they were losing. Antonio Inoki's decision to go all in on MMA almost killed New Japan.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,884
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Post by Sephiroth on Jan 18, 2021 10:58:05 GMT -5
Arguably, the brand split. Every time it’s been done, back to the experimental NWO shoes. In effect, a company deliberately going into competition with itself. Brilliant. Came here to say this. Just a dumb idea all around. Suddenly you're not seeing a WWF (excuse me, WWE) show anymore - it's Raw or it's SmackDown, with both rosters down half the star power they had when it was one combined product. On top of that, every attempt to create "brand rivalry" since 2002 has been a joke. YOU ALL WORK FOR THE SAME COMPANY. Thing is with the size of their overall roster, you could easily have the two shows each have a very distinct style and feel from each other. But trying to enforce a straight split between the two just can't last in the long term. You are going to need to have some crossover sooner rather than later.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 18, 2021 12:28:00 GMT -5
Came here to say this. Just a dumb idea all around. Suddenly you're not seeing a WWF (excuse me, WWE) show anymore - it's Raw or it's SmackDown, with both rosters down half the star power they had when it was one combined product. On top of that, every attempt to create "brand rivalry" since 2002 has been a joke. YOU ALL WORK FOR THE SAME COMPANY. Thing is with the size of their overall roster, you could easily have the two shows each have a very distinct style and feel from each other. But trying to enforce a straight split between the two just can't last in the long term. You are going to need to have some crossover sooner rather than later. I always thought that making only Championships floating would have been better than introduce 2 x heavyweight championships, 2 x IC equivalents, 2 x tag titles etc. That is, the Champion can compete on either brand but people on the brand can aim towards something without devaluation of individual titles.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 18, 2021 12:32:17 GMT -5
I still remember people here being incredulous to him being announced to be a part of the #1 contendership six-man match. Not him winning the title or even getting a title shot, but "Why on earth is he in a match which will determine the next challenger?" Jinder said the exact same thing on Talk is Jericho - "WTF am I doing on this list?" when he saw the schedule of matches.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 18, 2021 16:32:31 GMT -5
The November 19th, 2001 Raw. The show that tossed away 8 months of storyline. Heel and face alignments were shifted in a completely half assed and nonsensical way. The fans were all told that everything they invested in for the better part of a year didn't matter. The company has never recovered from it This show makes me so angry. Flair showed up. Flair showed up. You telling me you didn't have him signed the day before? Can you imagine the sound in that arena the night before if Flair had shown up and won the InVasion for WCW?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 23:38:06 GMT -5
JBL as a main eventer and world champion. I've noticed it's slowly being received better as years pass but I'll always maintain it was terrible.
It completely crippled Smackdown, a show that was going toe to toe with Raw and often getting the better of it, in terms of quality and ratings. From the original brand split until JBL's push Smackdown never felt like the "B" show. Both the last match on the card (Angle/Lesnar) and the most promoted match (Hogan/Vince) at Wrestlemania 19 were Smackdown matches. They also main evented other big dual-brand shows like Summerslam 2002. They had the Royal Rumble winner in 2003 and 2004. The second JBL got the title though Smackdown became second rate.
There's this myth that even if he wasn't the best in the ring he was at least a really over heel. I mean maybe he was on Smackdown with the seagull pops and fake heat but go watch when he was on a live show. There was no interest in his matches. Look at his "big four" title defences. Summerslam v Undertaker the crowd cared so little they turned on the match and did the wave. Survivor Series v Booker T again a boring match the crowd could not possibly care about less. Royal Rumble a forgettable triple threat where he's the least over person in the match. And v Cena in a Wrestlemania semi main event/world title match that no one cared about until popping for Cena's win at the end.
It's very similar to Jinder's reign over a decade later. Smackdown was on fire after the second brand split, like it was prior to JBL's push in 2004, until Wrestlemania 33 and only started being seen as second rate to Raw again when a career midcarder got the belt and starting having heatless title matches. Within a few months the title feuds went from Styles/Cena to Wyatt/Orton (say what you will about how the match turned out but that storyline was over at the time) to Jinder/Nakamura. A weak champion in both cases completely tanked a whole show.
And the booking of the Eddie feud is unforgivable. JBL made his mother have a heart attack, did Nazi salutes, literally chased away Mexicans at the border and was using racial slurs against him on a weekly basis, then beat him and took his title. Imagine being a Hispanic fan at the time and watching this. I have no idea why this isn't mentioned as much as Booker/Triple H as a storyline with the babyface losing the big match and never getting revenge on the racist. Even if Eddie wasn't dealing with the pressure of carrying the show and had to drop the title there's no way that story should have ended without him coming out on top in SOME way. He didn't need to win the title back, but just some modicum of revenge to make it feel like the good guy overcame the racist but nope, he just completely moved on.
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Post by sungod2020 on Jan 20, 2021 12:17:01 GMT -5
It's very similar to Jinder's reign over a decade later. Smackdown was on fire after the second brand split, like it was prior to JBL's push in 2004, until Wrestlemania 33 and only started being seen as second rate to Raw again when a career midcarder got the belt and starting having heatless title matches. Within a few months the title feuds went from Styles/Cena to Wyatt/Orton (say what you will about how the match turned out but that storyline was over at the time) to Jinder/Nakamura. A weak champion in both cases completely tanked a whole show. And the booking of the Eddie feud is unforgivable. JBL made his mother have a heart attack, did Nazi salutes, literally chased away Mexicans at the border and was using racial slurs against him on a weekly basis, then beat him and took his title. Imagine being a Hispanic fan at the time and watching this. I have no idea why this isn't mentioned as much as Booker/Triple H as a storyline with the babyface losing the big match and never getting revenge on the racist. Even if Eddie wasn't dealing with the pressure of carrying the show and had to drop the title there's no way that story should have ended without him coming out on top in SOME way. He didn't need to win the title back, but just some modicum of revenge to make it feel like the good guy overcame the racist but nope, he just completely moved on. The main difference between Jinder and JBL was, Layfield had prior success in the APA with Faarooq, whereas Jinder's most "prominent" role up to that point was playing third fiddle in 3MB, a comedy jobber stable at that, for somebody who was a jobber to begin with. Also, in regards to the second paragraph, that sounds like a pretty effective heel to me. As a heel, you're not suppose to have redeeming qualities. I feel this whole "Xpac/Go Away Heat" was just an excuse from some internet smark to not give heels that get to them credit for getting under their skin. Before such a term existed, there was no distinction between hating someone in kayfabe, and hating them "in real life"(as if you knew them personally to really hate them), if you hated them, you hated them. That was that. I felt JBL did a great job for his role. From abandoning his long-time tag team partner and friend Faarooq, to butting his way into the main event, to taking Eddie's title AND keeping it for 9 months by the skin of his teeth, that to me is classic heel 101. And when he co-main evented Wrestlemania against a rising John Cena, he did not feel out of place in his spot. So in hindsight, I do feel JBL's title reign was a success, at least to me, but i'm sure others as well. His booking might've not been the greatest, but serviceable given what they were aiming for.
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