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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 17, 2021 13:56:20 GMT -5
Again though, who the hell else do you put in that spot? It was his time even if he wasn’t the best person. The only person I think could have been ‘The guy’ in 96 is probably Vader. Have him win the Rumble in his first night in, destroy Bret at Mania then have a dominate run for the rest of the year. Either that or Vader just beats HBK for the title at Summerslam or earlier (KOTR maybe). But I still think anything WWE had in 96 just isn’t troubling the nWo in terms of popularity. A big challenge with that was that by 96 Vader was pretty beat up. In addition while Vader was a destructive monster multiple people have said Leon White was a very sensitive guy. I can just see the sharks in the locker room undermining him to get the spot.
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Post by romanstylesiii on Jan 17, 2021 14:01:14 GMT -5
That entire era was just a terrible time for heels. The WWE's top 3 guys were all faces (Bret, Taker, Shawn).
Sid was a good heel and it was even a good story, but that did not come until the end of his reign
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 17, 2021 14:33:36 GMT -5
Again though, who the hell else do you put in that spot? It was his time even if he wasn’t the best person. It's not about who you put in the spot, he was the best guy, it's more the presentation.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 17, 2021 14:35:47 GMT -5
Again though, who the hell else do you put in that spot? It was his time even if he wasn’t the best person. It's not about who you put in the spot, he was the best guy, it's more the presentation. I meant person as in real life. Regardless of the shape of the company of the time, He was the best guy to go with at the time, and I will die on that hill.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 17, 2021 14:37:11 GMT -5
It's not about who you put in the spot, he was the best guy, it's more the presentation. I meant person as in real life. Regardless of the shape of the company of the time, He was the best guy to go with at the time, and I will die on that hill. Oh totally, it's wrestling, if being a good person was a qualifier, most main eventers would never have made it. He was the right guy booked wrong.
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ppl591
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Post by ppl591 on Jan 18, 2021 4:48:24 GMT -5
I was 11 when he won the title. I hated his run and completely tuned out for a long time. Shawn is an amazing wrestler, no doubt. But his face character felt so disingenuous. To me it was like USA Luger. Nothing about it felt genuine
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 18, 2021 5:03:58 GMT -5
Mind Games remains maybe my favorite ever wrestling match, so I'll give face Shawn that.
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dav
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Post by dav on Jan 18, 2021 8:04:04 GMT -5
It said a fair bit about Shawn that people were chanting for Sid over him at the six man tag match at International Incident. Just unable to really carve out that niche for himself that he needed to do at the time.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 18, 2021 8:30:41 GMT -5
Is it fair to say Bret's fans did not translate into HBK fans, no matter how much of a good guy Shawn Michaels was presented as?
Myself and my friends in school did not buy Shawn Michaels as a champion on par with the Hitman and a percentage of folks in my circle stopped watching.
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Post by Aceorton on Jan 18, 2021 13:06:21 GMT -5
As others have said, Shawn was a natural heel, which he had demonstrated for the better part of five years at that point. His face turn in '95 was mostly organic because people recognized he had become almost unmatched in the ring, especially after the iron-man performance in the Rumble, carrying Diesel at WM11, etc. They didn't want him to change his personality ... only to direct his sneaky, smartass antics at the villains instead of the heroes.
This is Exhibit 742a for why Vince is not a genius -- because he couldn't see that, even as WCW was catching fire with its use of antiheroes. He took something the fans only wanted *slightly* adjusted and instead slathered it with sugar, since he only knew how to do one type of babyface: the white-bread, posing-after-every-victory one. Shawn's matches were still great, but as a character, he became a giant lamewad. And even as fans rolled their eyes at him, he somehow was able to go toe-to-toe with monsters like Vader and Sid. Basically, he got Roman Reigns'ed 20 years before Vince did it to Roman Reigns -- the difference being that Vince did have to tamp down his Shawn obsession by late '96/early '97 because his business was collapsing. It took him finally embracing another anti-hero, Austin, to keep the WWF afloat.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jan 18, 2021 13:44:23 GMT -5
Him against the NWO storyline was a tough thing to go against Mainly looked at Shawn title run as a failure and I'm like there was not a single wrestler on the WWE roster in 96 that would had anymore success as champion. Once the NWO started. That was the hottest thing in wrestling and nothing the WWE could have done to counter it because the roster was thin and the guys who did become the guys that saved the company down the line where still getting there traction. I mean Austin didn't start his change until KOTR when he made that Iconic promo. Survivor Series Austin got his first real ME level match to be taken as a legit guy. The Rock again Nov debut. Wasn't there. It was just a bad situation for Shawn and anybody for that matter. If Bret was in that role and didn't take time off. Bret was facing the same challengers, it wouldn't made a huge difference. It may only been better just for having Bret and Shawn on the cards the whole Spring and Summer of 96. Instead of only Shawn. But against they still wouldn't over come the NWO angle.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 18, 2021 15:46:10 GMT -5
Because he was an absolutely massive bellend. Even as a face he came across as snide, disingenuous, and smug, I suppose because he was. The metaphorical blowjob McMahon constantly gave him on commentary made it worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2021 16:56:50 GMT -5
HBK was awesome and watching him strip off while Vince was jizzing himself on commentary was hilarious.
I'll never forget that time he was dancing on the roof of the IYH set 😂
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Post by sungod2020 on Jan 18, 2021 17:31:38 GMT -5
As others have said, Shawn was a natural heel, which he had demonstrated for the better part of five years at that point. His face turn in '95 was mostly organic because people recognized he had become almost unmatched in the ring, especially after the iron-man performance in the Rumble, carrying Diesel at WM11, etc. They didn't want him to change his personality ... only to direct his sneaky, smartass antics at the villains instead of the heroes. This is Exhibit 742a for why Vince is not a genius -- because he couldn't see that, even as WCW was catching fire with its use of antiheroes. He took something the fans only wanted *slightly* adjusted and instead slathered it with sugar, since he only knew how to do one type of babyface: the white-bread, posing-after-every-victory one. Shawn's matches were still great, but as a character, he became a giant lamewad. And even as fans rolled their eyes at him, he somehow was able to go toe-to-toe with monsters like Vader and Sid. Basically, he got Roman Reigns'ed 20 years before Vince did it to Roman Reigns -- the difference being that Vince did have to tamp down his Shawn obsession by late '96/early '97 because his business was collapsing. It took him finally embracing another anti-hero, Austin, to keep the WWF afloat. I thought he was (for the most part at least) over as a face headed into and after Wrestlemania XII. He was like a babyface with an edge. I thought what watered him down was trying to be a sympathetic face with bringing his trainer out to all the shows. And no, I don't remember the fans turning on him like they did with Roman Reigns(who's push wasn't organic to begin with), probably because they didn't have time to with his fake injuries and hiatuses before becoming the Degenerate we eventually came to know him as.
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Post by Aceorton on Jan 18, 2021 17:47:56 GMT -5
As others have said, Shawn was a natural heel, which he had demonstrated for the better part of five years at that point. His face turn in '95 was mostly organic because people recognized he had become almost unmatched in the ring, especially after the iron-man performance in the Rumble, carrying Diesel at WM11, etc. They didn't want him to change his personality ... only to direct his sneaky, smartass antics at the villains instead of the heroes. This is Exhibit 742a for why Vince is not a genius -- because he couldn't see that, even as WCW was catching fire with its use of antiheroes. He took something the fans only wanted *slightly* adjusted and instead slathered it with sugar, since he only knew how to do one type of babyface: the white-bread, posing-after-every-victory one. Shawn's matches were still great, but as a character, he became a giant lamewad. And even as fans rolled their eyes at him, he somehow was able to go toe-to-toe with monsters like Vader and Sid. Basically, he got Roman Reigns'ed 20 years before Vince did it to Roman Reigns -- the difference being that Vince did have to tamp down his Shawn obsession by late '96/early '97 because his business was collapsing. It took him finally embracing another anti-hero, Austin, to keep the WWF afloat. I thought he was (for the most part at least) over as a face headed into and after Wrestlemania XII. He was like a babyface with an edge. I thought what watered him down was trying to be a sympathetic face with bringing his trainer out to all the shows. And no, I don't remember the fans turning on him like they did with Roman Reigns(who's push wasn't organic to begin with), probably because they didn't have time to with his fake injuries and hiatuses before becoming the Degenerate we eventually came to know him as. Yes, to be clear, I'm largely referring to Shawn post-WM12. Without Bret as his foil, that's when Vince forced him into Babyface 101 mode. Not saying fans reacted to HBK like they did Reigns (they didn't have time for that depth of resentment to set in, fortunately), only that Vince clearly had decided Shawn was The Guy, but instead of playing up what made him popular, he made him LESS likable and would have ridden that into the ground if not for the fact that his company's survival was at stake. If WCW/nWo weren't threatening to force Vince out of business at that time, I could easily see him holding the belt well past WM13.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2021 18:03:50 GMT -5
Loved HBK then, but I was also 4/5. After learning about what kind of a person he was at the time, it's really hard for me to buy his babyface shtick. None of it seemed genuine, and the whole stripping thing was pretty awkward. The matches are still AMAZING, though.
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Post by nisidhe on Jan 18, 2021 22:32:37 GMT -5
Him against the NWO storyline was a tough thing to go against Mainly looked at Shawn title run as a failure and I'm like there was not a single wrestler on the WWE roster in 96 that would had anymore success as champion. Once the NWO started. That was the hottest thing in wrestling and nothing the WWE could have done to counter it because the roster was thin and the guys who did become the guys that saved the company down the line where still getting there traction. I mean Austin didn't start his change until KOTR when he made that Iconic promo. Survivor Series Austin got his first real ME level match to be taken as a legit guy. The Rock again Nov debut. Wasn't there. It was just a bad situation for Shawn and anybody for that matter. If Bret was in that role and didn't take time off. Bret was facing the same challengers, it wouldn't made a huge difference. It may only been better just for having Bret and Shawn on the cards the whole Spring and Summer of 96. Instead of only Shawn. But against they still wouldn't over come the NWO angle. Bret was absent from WWE between Wrestlemania XII and Survivor Series, partly to wrap up some film and TV projects, partly to give Vince (and Shawn) a bit of room for Shawn to grow into the champion role without Bret there to cast a shadow. It didn't work. WWE lost money that year. Shawn as a face was utterly disingenuous and the cracks in that face persona were showing all through his reign. Meanwhile, the biggest new heel to enter WWE that year was specifically calling out Bret while ignoring the WWE champion. That summer and early fall were strewn with lost opportunities - Vader would have been one of Bret's biggest challengers and Bret, better trained and more patient with his coworkers, would have carried that behemoth to a match that might have brought flashbacks of Bret's match with Tom Magee. It was becoming clear, I think, that Michaels was caught in the middle of Austin coming up as a top heel like a rocket, Owen still continuing as a threat, Vader and Sid still in the picture as huge potential threats to whoever held the belt, but many fans stateside, and most overseas, were still chanting for Bret.
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Squirrel Master
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Post by Squirrel Master on Jan 19, 2021 1:09:59 GMT -5
Seeing HBK posing for the centerfold of Playgirl magazine butt naked with (Bret’s) WWF world title belt just pissed me off!
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