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Post by dex on Jan 19, 2021 15:07:41 GMT -5
This is an issue that comes up again and again with Charlotte . She just isn't able to bring the best out of less skilled talents in her matches with them, even when those talents have shown flashes in their matches with other talents.
In the last 2 weeks she's ahd bad matches with Lacey and Peyton . Now neither of those two are top tier in-ring talents , but both have had nice matches with other wrestlers before. Lacey had her very solid series of matches with Kairi in NXT with much less experience, her work with Natalya, and her matches against Sasha and Bayley on SD. Peyton has her matches with the likes of Asuka and Ember in NXT, the tag vteam elimination chamber match, and more recently her matches against the Riott Squad members
Despite Lacey and Peyton having a track record of being able to be carried to solid matches Charlotte just wasn't able to, and she never has really shown the ability to.
I think this flaw diminishes her as a wrestler, and keeps her out of the very top tier of women. Talents like Sasha are able to bring the very best out of their opponents despite their talent or experience level, for example Sasha's current feud with Carmella, and Bayley's work as SD champ dragging decent matches out of the likes of Tamina.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 19, 2021 15:19:44 GMT -5
Charlotte is greatly overrate in the ring,I will say that,that is not to say she is not really good,that speaks mroe of how people overrate her.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 19, 2021 15:22:10 GMT -5
Love Charlotte but I agree. It’s interesting because there are always talented folks that very much work to the level of their opponent. Doesn’t make them bad or anything but every performer has weaknesses and for some folks, it’s that.
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4real
Wade Wilson
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Post by 4real on Jan 19, 2021 15:24:00 GMT -5
Think Peyton needs to take some of the blame for last night she just didn’t look good at all.
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Post by Captain Patren Fenderbaum-X on Jan 19, 2021 15:28:29 GMT -5
What bugs me the most about Charlottes in ring abilities is that she is literally the definition of that ole childish taunt of....it bounces off of me and sticks to you or however that saying goes that is Charlotte.
Everyone has to take her offense as if it is this moneumental hit that drops them...where as when Charlotte gets hit she just rubberbands back.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Jan 19, 2021 15:31:24 GMT -5
I argue that if all your good matches are with great wrestlers, and you can't carry a match with lesser talent... than you are the one being carried in your good matches.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 19, 2021 16:51:56 GMT -5
Charlotte has good instincts as a ring general, but she can't carry matches at all with talent that's below her level.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 16:53:11 GMT -5
Been a fan of Charlotte's for a while, but I've been pretty underwhelmed with her since she's returned, even in the ring. She's still one of the most talented people they have, but there are a bunch of others I'd rather watch at this point.
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Post by eJm on Jan 19, 2021 17:00:19 GMT -5
Far be it from me to just plain speculate but there’s a part of me that can’t help but think some of it comes down to how she was trained at the PC and who was in her ear. Because she was always going to be a big deal regardless and NXT at the time was more interested in building to these bigger matches on the Network than building a division and using other names to elevate. Not to say it wasn’t taught but possibly Charlotte wasn’t seen as someone to be taught that.
This thread also reminds me of the interview she did after the TLC debacle where she said she still needed to get her stuff in regardless of what happened with Sane and it sort of says to me improv isn’t really something taught at times. Or at the very least, Charlotte hasn’t been taught to modify match plans if needed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 17:02:04 GMT -5
Charlotte's plenty capable of carrying her own weight but can do no further. It is a pretty big part of while I'd call her good in the ring I wouldn't say she's great.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Jan 19, 2021 17:09:35 GMT -5
Yeah, I still say she's athletic as hell and can put on great matches, but it's why I put someone like Shida or Asuka above her overall. Those two seem to at least pull decent matches out of just about anyone they face. But I wouldn't say she isn't good, just that she needs the right opponents. A lot of wrestlers are like that really, sometimes they don't have that ring general mentality and go through the motions without much thought put into who the opponent is. I think I read Jericho was like that for a good chunk of his career.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 19, 2021 17:20:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I still say she's athletic as hell and can put on great matches, but it's why I put someone like Shida or Asuka above her overall. Those two seem to at least pull decent matches out of just about anyone they face. But I wouldn't say she isn't good, just that she needs the right opponents. A lot of wrestlers are like that really, sometimes they don't have that ring general mentality and go through the motions without much thought put into who the opponent is. I think I read Jericho was like that for a good chunk of his career. Yeah, Charlotte is a great talent. But I don't put her on the same elite level as someone like an Io Shirai or an Asuka. Hell, even Bayley and Sasha Banks feel like they've really put on their A game lately and you can argue they're at least on Charlotte's level now, possibly even surpassing her overall.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 17:22:54 GMT -5
Sasha will sell like crazy to make everyone look great. Flair I question if she knows how to sell sometimes.
But weren't we all golf clapping Flair and Morgan because Liv was able to have an above average match with her? That was less than a year ago.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 19, 2021 17:27:12 GMT -5
Love Charlotte but I agree. It’s interesting because there are always talented folks that very much work to the level of their opponent. Doesn’t make them bad or anything but every performer has weaknesses and for some folks, it’s that. Yeah, Kurt Angle was very much like that too.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 19, 2021 17:27:45 GMT -5
I honestly think a lot of the problem is that Charlotte is a bit of an awkward size. She is too tall and big to wrestle like some of the others for a lot of the less experienced women, and she's not big enough like a Nia where you'd handle it as a giantess kind of match. Like, Nia is obviously often a major issue, but you at least can pretty easily agent that kind of a match.
It's like when Charlotte does the moonsault and it so very often looks awful because the other women aren't really tall enough to comfortably catch her.
This is something that a lot of the onus is on Charlotte to work around, but that doesn't help matters.
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Facetious
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Post by Facetious on Jan 19, 2021 17:38:39 GMT -5
I think it's kinda like Batista's early title runs. You put him with great talent (Triple H and Taker) and get some bangers. Otherwise it's not good lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 17:41:22 GMT -5
Love Charlotte but I agree. It’s interesting because there are always talented folks that very much work to the level of their opponent. Doesn’t make them bad or anything but every performer has weaknesses and for some folks, it’s that. Yeah, Kurt Angle was very much like that too. I'd say Angle spent most of his career outright not being a good wrestler. Technically very sound but his TNA run made it very clear that he knows absolutely nothing about how to actually structure a match.
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msc
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Post by msc on Jan 19, 2021 17:42:39 GMT -5
The Four Horsewomen are a bit like Edge and Christian/The Hardys.
Sasha Banks is Jeff Hardy. The daredevil one, the one that folk instantly take to from Day 1, who when her mental game is on can have crackers with Asuka or Tamina, pretty much, like Jeff in 2000-3.
Bayley is Matt Hardy. The solid one who pretty much always produces a good 6 or 7 out of 10 effort from nearly everyone, but didn't get a decent push until they turned heel.
Becky WAS Christian - by which I mean the purists bet for best of the four, utterly underrated by their own industry and in the shadow of friends pushed heavier UNTIL Summerslam 2018 when magic, catharsis and 20 years of this type of wrestler not pushing back against the system turned her into a supernova.
And Charlotte is Edge. Edge was the flashiest, the one getting the push, the one who had star written all over them. The one with all the pushes. But... the thing about Edge's career is that he was pretty much a main event mirror. Put him in the ring with someone great like a John Cena or a CM Punk, you get great matches. Put him in with Orton, you got good stuff when Orton was in the right frame of mind. Put him in with Kennedy or Kane or the like and you got pretty much a match based on how good the opponent was. Which was part of the reason Edge's 2002-3 push was spent surrounded by brilliant wrestlers like Angle, Eddie, Benoit, and so on. And why Charlotte's been surrounded by brilliant wrestlers like Becky, Sasha, Asuka and so on...
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msc
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Post by msc on Jan 19, 2021 17:46:02 GMT -5
And since I mentioned Angle (their..zaniness matched off well)... Yeah, Kurt Angle was very much like that too. I'd say Angle spent most of his career outright not being a good wrestler. Technically very sound but his TNA run made it very clear that he knows absolutely nothing about how to actually structure a match. To add, there's matches in the Eddie/Angle feud where Guerrero makes him slow the f*** down in the ring. Best of their series iirc. Think it was a number one contender match on Smackdown?
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Post by Cyno on Jan 19, 2021 18:20:06 GMT -5
Kurt Angle was an amazing technical wrestler thanks to his amateur experience. He's also a much better promo than I ever expected. All that said, he was awful at in-ring storytelling and overall psychology. And that has a lot to do with him jumping almost immediately from being an Olympic gold medalist to the top echelons of pro wrestling without honing his craft in the indies or a developmental system.
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