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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2021 14:43:17 GMT -5
Something random I thought of this week while reading a WWE thread about the contract signing on SD this week. Contract signings to me basically feel like a "hey let's throw that on, yeah that's easy and that'll work" type of segment these days. It's like, yall remember when you went to gym and the teacher was like "walk the track or play basketball today, whatever you want", right? Yall remember when the teacher rolled out the tv and just threw a movie on? That's how a lot of wrestling things are as a whole. Contract signings, random tag matches where 2 people team up against the people they face at another ppv, just stuff thrown in there that's embedded into wrestling as a whole.
So I gotta ask about AEW, since most of yall watch it more than I do along with critiquing it I gotta ask, what's some ways AEW breaks out of certain trends? Is there a segment or angle or something that makes you think "wow, that's new, creative and unique" relating to it? Things that break standard trends we've seen these past decades that really make a huge impact.
I gotta say the MJF thing this week really felt fresh to me. I loved it. The same with the Moxley/Omega match days ago. Those work. Also the AEW/TNA title match is another.
What other things have you seen that didn't feel like a "hey lemme throw this on to fill up time and space" here?
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Post by Yamashita Enforcement Division on Mar 12, 2021 14:58:51 GMT -5
I am going to be honest, I don't watch the wwf and haven't in years and have had no desire to do so for longer, so things that are wwf tradition have been replaced with TJPW, New Japan, and DDT's way of doing thing, and none of those shows have the wwf's problem of being incredibly lazy and also micromanaging the show to a massive extent. What other things have you seen that didn't feel like a "hey lemme throw this on to fill up time and space" here? So, the thing about AEW is that there isn't enough time to get everything done that they would want. There isn't enough time and thus no segment really ever feels like it isn't advancing something on Dynamite, because getting on Dynamite is an achievement in itself. Like some of the stuff that was the worst for being the show for an ill-explained reason, was the repeated Sting interview that has yet to be completed with Tony Schiavone. It keeps getting interrupted by people, and there was a period in the laning phase of the Team Sting/Team Taz feud where it was a weekly thing of "Sting or Taz cut promo, other side interrupts and Team Taz walks off in a huff" But even that had some reason for being on the show, nothing on TV is there just because they need to fill time, because they don't have enough time for what they already have, because everyone is allowed to author their own experience to an extent, so if there were time available, someone would sponge it up with a pitch.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 12, 2021 15:03:03 GMT -5
Announcing the match card for next week's show before the main event is something I really like, since it gets people hyped for the following week and the matches usually have a logical reason for why they're happening.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Mar 12, 2021 15:03:48 GMT -5
Most of what they do isn't super new or revolutionary. What does tend to be new is kind of subtle.
Probably the freshest part of AEW - the thing that made me decide that this is my wrestling, through its ups and downs - is that they're big on male bonding and male vulnerability in a way that WWE has never been in my memory. Hangman Page's anxiety, trust issues, and vulnerability to manipulation are very welcome; Eddie Kingston identifying himself as a guy with anxiety and PTSD and being a tough bastard regardless also hits that spot. Cody's feud with MJF had him taking comfort from his brother, his friends, his wife in a very "you're stronger when you lean on your loved ones" sort of way. Mox and Darby had this moment (that didn't land very well, but I appreciated it) of Mox tenderly cradling Darby after a title match. The tag division is filled with guys who have very deep and real-feeling affection for each other - the Inner Circle being kind of goofy and airheaded buddies, Kenny and Hangman playing their tag team breakup like the end of a relationship (in a way that hit good emotional beats and was never played as a joke), Mox and Kingston now having this deep-feeling connection based on shared experience and bonds that they've formed.
There's also stuff like John Silver's homoerotic shenanigans being played as a good thing (and not being played at all as gross or unpleasant), Peter Avalon having a whole deal centered on male attractiveness, Sonny Kiss being the fabulous genderfluid icon that he is while wrestling essentially a tuned-up Divas style, Bear Country leaning in to an aesthetic that is very celebrated in gay male communities while Taz extols how handsome they are on commentary...
Oh, and the women's division, for all its problems, hits a lot of aesthetic notes that are very popular among queer women that I know. Monster girls (Abadon, Statlander), subverted cuteness (Maki, Riho in a way), femme-to-the-max without being diminished for it (Ford, Alex Gracia), swordswomen (Shida), butch swagger (Mizunami, KiLynn King, Swole in a Tuxedo Mask cosplay), tiny-and-will-murder-you (Hirsch), a huge trans woman who will murder you one minute and dress up in adorable outfits the next (Nyla Rose)...
Basically, it's wrestling that isn't afraid to look gay. That makes some stuff even more disappointing than it would be otherwise (Max Caster and Jake the Snake use a lot of really uncomfortable misogynist tropes in their promos), but it's something that opens up their storytelling quite a lot - there's more room for characters to have the kinds of bonds and emotional range that make for better stories.
And hey, maybe this is just a nonbinary bisexual reading too much into it, but AEW just has a lot of little touches that I feel are absent in a lot of other wrestling (especially US wrestling). This sort of stuff certainly isn't new in and of itself, but with AEW it feels very woven into their entire deal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2021 15:09:59 GMT -5
From what I have seen of the product...they aren't an innovative company but the things they choose to excell in they do strongly.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 12, 2021 15:17:38 GMT -5
A wrestler losing doesn't mean they're going to automatically be irrelevant or never reach the next level in their career, which is an issue WWE's drilled into some peoples heads. I know a lot of people thought Darby was screwed when Cody beat him a few times, but now he's TNT Champion
They also can turn around what seem like dead in the water acts and make them incredibly over, Dark Order being the prime example, or Hangman's initial run with the company till his title match not being solid.
They haven't CHANGED THE WORLD in terms of the tropes they circumvent in wrestling, but I can certainly say they have helped me and others definitely trust them if something doesnt go right, case in point, Revolution's ending.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Mar 12, 2021 15:17:41 GMT -5
Even if they don't always harp a ton on it, they've kept themselves honest with actively telling you everyone's win/loss record. If WWE did that with some of the guys they randomly decided to push, it would look silly. So AEW can't just take a guy who's 1-23 and give him a sudden one month title push. As mentioned earlier, they announce most if not their entire cards ahead of time which shouldn't be innovative but is something that has been missing from major American companies for a long time. They also do not overdo rematches a ton which has become a bit of a crutch over the past few decades. They didn't rush back into FTR/Young Bucks for example. And when they do, they usually space it out and let it breathe.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 12, 2021 15:19:56 GMT -5
Another little tidbit I like? Comentary explaining why things are the way they are or why a move hurts or why this move or this particular body part is in pain and how certain wrestlers can take advantage of this or make certain rookie mistakes in ring
It's real subtle but it's one of the things I really like about guys liek Excalibur and Taz especially who never really got to show this side of himself in either WWE or TNA and it's refreshing.
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Post by Yamashita Enforcement Division on Mar 12, 2021 15:25:01 GMT -5
Another little tidbit I like? Comentary explaining why things are the way they are or why a move hurts or why this move or this particular body part is in pain and how certain wrestlers can take advantage of this or make certain rookie mistakes in ring It's real subtle but it's one of the things I really like about guys liek Excalibur and Taz especially who never really got to show this side of himself in either WWE or TNA and it's refreshing. Taz getting to geek out about Tay Conti's judo throws is a highlight of ever Conti match on Dark.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 12, 2021 15:25:52 GMT -5
Most of what they do isn't super new or revolutionary. What does tend to be new is kind of subtle. Probably the freshest part of AEW - the thing that made me decide that this is my wrestling, through its ups and downs - is that they're big on male bonding and male vulnerability in a way that WWE has never been in my memory. Hangman Page's anxiety, trust issues, and vulnerability to manipulation are very welcome; Eddie Kingston identifying himself as a guy with anxiety and PTSD and being a tough bastard regardless also hits that spot. Cody's feud with MJF had him taking comfort from his brother, his friends, his wife in a very "you're stronger when you lean on your loved ones" sort of way. Mox and Darby had this moment (that didn't land very well, but I appreciated it) of Mox tenderly cradling Darby after a title match. The tag division is filled with guys who have very deep and real-feeling affection for each other - the Inner Circle being kind of goofy and airheaded buddies, Kenny and Hangman playing their tag team breakup like the end of a relationship (in a way that hit good emotional beats and was never played as a joke), Mox and Kingston now having this deep-feeling connection based on shared experience and bonds that they've formed. There's also stuff like John Silver's homoerotic shenanigans being played as a good thing (and not being played at all as gross or unpleasant), Peter Avalon having a whole deal centered on male attractiveness, Sonny Kiss being the fabulous genderfluid icon that he is while wrestling essentially a tuned-up Divas style, Bear Country leaning in to an aesthetic that is very celebrated in gay male communities while Taz extols how handsome they are on commentary... Oh, and the women's division, for all its problems, hits a lot of aesthetic notes that are very popular among queer women that I know. Monster girls (Abadon, Statlander), subverted cuteness (Maki, Riho in a way), femme-to-the-max without being diminished for it (Ford, Alex Gracia), swordswomen (Shida), butch swagger (Mizunami, KiLynn King, Swole in a Tuxedo Mask cosplay), tiny-and-will-murder-you (Hirsch), a huge trans woman who will murder you one minute and dress up in adorable outfits the next (Nyla Rose)... Basically, it's wrestling that isn't afraid to look gay. That makes some stuff even more disappointing than it would be otherwise (Max Caster and Jake the Snake use a lot of really uncomfortable misogynist tropes in their promos), but it's something that opens up their storytelling quite a lot - there's more room for characters to have the kinds of bonds and emotional range that make for better stories. And hey, maybe this is just a nonbinary bisexual reading too much into it, but AEW just has a lot of little touches that I feel are absent in a lot of other wrestling (especially US wrestling). This sort of stuff certainly isn't new in and of itself, but with AEW it feels very woven into their entire deal. The more "human" side of wrestling storytelling with the examples brought up really help set AEW storylines apart from most other wrestling feuds that are just mostly "I hate this guy, I want to kick his ass".
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Mar 12, 2021 15:27:43 GMT -5
Oh, one thing separate from the larger point of my big post that is also kind of small, but something that is a nice innovation in the face of wrestling's never-ending race for bigger and cooler moves:
They're doing a lot to pull back on the distinction between finishers and normal moves. Commentary and match psychology both emphasize that a match is won with a move and the pin, meaning that a poor pin or a bad move execution is enough to turn a victory into a nearfall. The range of finishers runs the gamut from fancy head drops like the One-Winged Angel and the Pentagon Driver, to simpler and older moves like the Death Valley Driver and a spinebuster.
I get the sense that someone looked at Bryan Danielson's ROH formula of "four moves that rotate between finish and near falls," combined it with the Japanese psychology where a finisher can also be a signature move that's hit enough times, and made it a core part of the promotion's style.
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 12, 2021 15:30:08 GMT -5
Honestly, it feels less insulting to the audience in the way they tell stories. They trust the audience to read between the lines and enjoy the little details rather than ramming home every point like the audience won't get it otherwise.
That's not to say everything they've done is high art but it does feel like more of a thinking man's product that the WWF/E has ever been.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Mar 12, 2021 16:03:44 GMT -5
They don’t really reinvent the wheel, but they certainly in many ways built a better wheel when it comes to storytelling.
I really do like the feeling of when someone loses, then their career isn’t destroyed. They don’t make losing something to be ashamed of or makes you less than. A loss doesn’t bury you. And even you lose a big match and get de pushed a little bit, they still will keep you strong until the next opportunity comes along. I think a good example currently are guys like Scorpio Sky, who at first was pushed pretty hard out of the gate, even got a title match with Chris Jericho. After he lost that match, he never had the same push. But he was never made to look weak on Dark and built himself back up to now with a heel, he’s becoming a big part of the show again.
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Post by eJm on Mar 12, 2021 16:53:56 GMT -5
As people mentioned, it doesn't do much different as much as utilize what it has to an effective manner.
It's probably the closest since WCW to go into the "wrestling is a circus" analogy Foley talked about. There's your WWE style stories, your CZW style grudge matches, your Lucha Underground style craziness on occasions, your PWG/Dragon Gate style spectacles, your NWA style stories, your Joshis, your hosses, your technical grapplers, just all blends together to be a showcase of wrestling on a big stage.
It's absolutely not perfect and there are still kinks that need to be worked on but the cool thing is that those kinks are being worked on. Some slower than others but it still feels like something growing and developing and changing rather than staying static and sticking to formula. The first hour of the Dynamite before Revolution is pretty much the best embodiment of that.
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Post by Kalmia on Mar 12, 2021 16:58:11 GMT -5
I like that they acknowledge it's a TV show. Cameras are there for a reason and wrestlers know they are. Wrestlers watch the show back and find out information they didn't know before.
Faces aren't dumb. Losses matter, but don't signal being buried/loss of a push. You can clearly see how a guy like Jungle Boy is going to be the man, but understand why he isn't right now.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 12, 2021 17:05:51 GMT -5
The answer is kinda lame but: sometimes.
They know the tropes and know how to walk aroind at times ,but you cant always avoid it.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 12, 2021 17:11:26 GMT -5
I don't know if what they do is really innovative so much as paying attention to the lessons, good and bad, from their domestic and foreign counterparts. It's a breath of fresh air as far as a different kind of presentation from WWE, though.
What I like is that there's a certain self-awareness about the product. They're not trying to "work the marks" with that old school carny attitude from not just WWE but other promotions like Jarrett/Carter-era TNA and WCW. Faces are competent without heels looking like doofuses at their expense unless circumstances specifically call for it. They also realize how silly pro wrestling can be, and lean into it instead of pretending everything has to be super-serious all the time. Of course these attitudes can rankle the sensibilities of those with old school mindsets, but I find it refreshing.
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Post by eJm on Mar 12, 2021 17:11:39 GMT -5
The answer is kinda lame but: sometimes. They know the tropes and know how to walk aroind at times ,but you cant always avoid it. It's sort of hard if an industry, or even a genre, has dominated an industry for as long as WWE has to not fall into the tropes that it has (how many companies have had their own version of MITB? My two local companies have had their own damn MITBs) and it's not really any kind of an issue as long as you aren't just doing what they did. Like, there's a reason a lot of movies are doing end credit scenes and building to sequels in them because the MCU did it and the MCU made a f*** tonne of money with it. It's certainly not a new thing in movies but when a company defines the blockbuster for so long, you kind of get roped into it.
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Post by Chiral on Mar 12, 2021 17:17:16 GMT -5
This more iterative than innovative for me but I really like their melding of social media/online vids and main storytelling. Hangman's journey last year got derailed a bit because of the lockdowns but his work with like his hilarious letters on Twitter or his adventures getting drunk and living in the woods on BTE turned it back around. Wrestling started to dabble with that stuff around like...Zack Ryder's show? But AEW feels more cohesive about all their stuff working together.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 12, 2021 17:25:16 GMT -5
This more iterative than innovative for me but I really like their melding of social media/online vids and main storytelling. Hangman's journey last year got derailed a bit because of the lockdowns but his work with like his hilarious letters on Twitter or his adventures getting drunk and living in the woods on BTE turned it back around. Wrestling started to dabble with that stuff around like...Zack Ryder's show? But AEW feels more cohesive about all their stuff working together. BTE basically made Dark Order as over as they are, especially John Silver, who Tony Khan literally asked to "Do more stuff like you do on BTE".
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