bog
Team Rocket
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Post by bog on Mar 14, 2021 10:38:10 GMT -5
The biggest thing that was bothering me about WWE was the implication that this huge roster of wrestlers shows up every week with absolutely no idea what's going to happen. They just live in this "universe" and are present for when things are announced that night. Typically, a few people will go to the ring and bicker until someone comes out and makes it a match, resulting in a "wow, can you believe it?" reaction. And really, there was a time when that made "sense" with how the Attitude Era was and how stuff could change on the fly with how Vince was feeling about how to crush Austin or whoever else was in his way because, well, television was sort of like that at the time, too. Smackdown itself at least was trying to get out of that under Heyman but the moment you tune in to Raw now and see that's still the format they're going with when the in kayfabe system doesn't have a totalitarian leader who wants to crush a loved babyface...they just come off as incompetent. I never really thought about it but yeah that must have been when this format originated. "Rasslin'" was considered lame at that time and they were moving as far away from that as possible. I think with the Jerry Springer years of television being over and more and more "nerdy" things have been popping up in the mainstream, a more traditional wrestling show makes sense. It's not just AEW either. What I've seen of ROH, Impact, and NJPW all present themselves in the fashion of a more traditional wrestling show. Let's not forget those attitude era years may also be when Vince's obsession with SNL may have taken off. That episode with Rock was a classic and I'm pretty sure he was quoted as wanting his shows to be more like a variety show institution.
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Post by eJm on Mar 14, 2021 10:53:43 GMT -5
And really, there was a time when that made "sense" with how the Attitude Era was and how stuff could change on the fly with how Vince was feeling about how to crush Austin or whoever else was in his way because, well, television was sort of like that at the time, too. Smackdown itself at least was trying to get out of that under Heyman but the moment you tune in to Raw now and see that's still the format they're going with when the in kayfabe system doesn't have a totalitarian leader who wants to crush a loved babyface...they just come off as incompetent. I never really thought about it but yeah that must have been when this format originated. "Rasslin'" was considered lame at that time and they were moving as far away from that as possible. I think with the Jerry Springer years of television being over and more and more "nerdy" things have been popping up in the mainstream, a more traditional wrestling show makes sense. It's not just AEW either. What I've seen of ROH, Impact, and NJPW all present themselves in the fashion of a more traditional wrestling show. Let's not forget those attitude era years may also be when Vince's obsession with SNL may have taken off. That episode with Rock was a classic and I'm pretty sure he was quoted as wanting his shows to be more like a variety show institution. Pretty much, yeah. And I'm sure there's nothing wrong with some unpredictability here and there but it gets more weirder as the years go on where you go into a show not knowing what's going to be on said show when you also repeatedly hype yourself up as a billion dollar company with all these big TV deals or trips to Saudi Arabia (a show, I may add, is built weeks in advance because, well, it wants to attract the interest of the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia the Saudi fans). Like, you don't see Disney revealing before people watch a movie on Disney+ what film they're going to be seeing. There's enough information in advance in the description to let you know what that film is going to be about and whose in it because they want you to watch the damn thing.
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Post by Hypnosis on Mar 14, 2021 11:17:56 GMT -5
I never really thought about it but yeah that must have been when this format originated. "Rasslin'" was considered lame at that time and they were moving as far away from that as possible. I think with the Jerry Springer years of television being over and more and more "nerdy" things have been popping up in the mainstream, a more traditional wrestling show makes sense. It's not just AEW either. What I've seen of ROH, Impact, and NJPW all present themselves in the fashion of a more traditional wrestling show. Let's not forget those attitude era years may also be when Vince's obsession with SNL may have taken off. That episode with Rock was a classic and I'm pretty sure he was quoted as wanting his shows to be more like a variety show institution. Pretty much, yeah. And I'm sure there's nothing wrong with some unpredictability here and there but it gets more weirder as the years go on where you go into a show not knowing what's going to be on said show when you also repeatedly hype yourself up as a billion dollar company with all these big TV deals or trips to Saudi Arabia (a show, I may add, is built weeks in advance because, well, it wants to attract the interest of the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia the Saudi fans). Like, you don't see Disney revealing before people watch a movie on Disney+ what film they're going to be seeing. There's enough information in advance in the description to let you know what that film is going to be about and whose in it because they want you to watch the damn thing. In WWE's case, it's rather frustrating for a fan who watches for certain wrestlers wondering if they're going to be featured or not that week. That fan eventually stops watching or takes a long break from the product after continued letdowns.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,410
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Post by FinalGwen on Mar 14, 2021 11:27:23 GMT -5
Most of what they do isn't super new or revolutionary. What does tend to be new is kind of subtle. Probably the freshest part of AEW - the thing that made me decide that this is my wrestling, through its ups and downs - is that they're big on male bonding and male vulnerability in a way that WWE has never been in my memory. Hangman Page's anxiety, trust issues, and vulnerability to manipulation are very welcome; Eddie Kingston identifying himself as a guy with anxiety and PTSD and being a tough bastard regardless also hits that spot. Cody's feud with MJF had him taking comfort from his brother, his friends, his wife in a very "you're stronger when you lean on your loved ones" sort of way. Mox and Darby had this moment (that didn't land very well, but I appreciated it) of Mox tenderly cradling Darby after a title match. The tag division is filled with guys who have very deep and real-feeling affection for each other - the Inner Circle being kind of goofy and airheaded buddies, Kenny and Hangman playing their tag team breakup like the end of a relationship (in a way that hit good emotional beats and was never played as a joke), Mox and Kingston now having this deep-feeling connection based on shared experience and bonds that they've formed. There's also stuff like John Silver's homoerotic shenanigans being played as a good thing (and not being played at all as gross or unpleasant), Peter Avalon having a whole deal centered on male attractiveness, Sonny Kiss being the fabulous genderfluid icon that he is while wrestling essentially a tuned-up Divas style, Bear Country leaning in to an aesthetic that is very celebrated in gay male communities while Taz extols how handsome they are on commentary... Oh, and the women's division, for all its problems, hits a lot of aesthetic notes that are very popular among queer women that I know. Monster girls (Abadon, Statlander), subverted cuteness (Maki, Riho in a way), femme-to-the-max without being diminished for it (Ford, Alex Gracia), swordswomen (Shida), butch swagger (Mizunami, KiLynn King, Swole in a Tuxedo Mask cosplay), tiny-and-will-murder-you (Hirsch), a huge trans woman who will murder you one minute and dress up in adorable outfits the next (Nyla Rose)... Basically, it's wrestling that isn't afraid to look gay. That makes some stuff even more disappointing than it would be otherwise (Max Caster and Jake the Snake use a lot of really uncomfortable misogynist tropes in their promos), but it's something that opens up their storytelling quite a lot - there's more room for characters to have the kinds of bonds and emotional range that make for better stories. And hey, maybe this is just a nonbinary bisexual reading too much into it, but AEW just has a lot of little touches that I feel are absent in a lot of other wrestling (especially US wrestling). This sort of stuff certainly isn't new in and of itself, but with AEW it feels very woven into their entire deal. Cosigned all of this. Beautifully explained and really shows what AEW does that we've never really seen before. The old wrestling tropes are all there but there's a humanity to the storytelling and the refusal to use old bigoted stereotypes that makes it all so much more refreshing. I remember being so pleasantly surprised with the Bullet Club/Golden Lovers story in NJPW/ROH where Cody got to be a despicable heel facing off against what was basically a gay-coded relationship, and made us hate him without ever resorting to anything crude or bigoted, and that gave me a lot of faith going forwards and they've thus far not really let me down.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,686
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 11:27:37 GMT -5
They don't go for dumb swerves just to have a twist, also their long term storytelling is great
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 14, 2021 12:36:28 GMT -5
AEW much like New Japan books everything in blocks. There are feuds that are just meant for a few weeks, feuds that are meant for special Dynamites, and feuds built for PPVs.
I get why WWE doesn't do that but I do think taking a similar approach would be good... and honesrly they can still do that with the monthly.ppvs
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bog
Team Rocket
Posts: 995
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Post by bog on Mar 14, 2021 15:06:38 GMT -5
I never really thought about it but yeah that must have been when this format originated. "Rasslin'" was considered lame at that time and they were moving as far away from that as possible. I think with the Jerry Springer years of television being over and more and more "nerdy" things have been popping up in the mainstream, a more traditional wrestling show makes sense. It's not just AEW either. What I've seen of ROH, Impact, and NJPW all present themselves in the fashion of a more traditional wrestling show. Let's not forget those attitude era years may also be when Vince's obsession with SNL may have taken off. That episode with Rock was a classic and I'm pretty sure he was quoted as wanting his shows to be more like a variety show institution. Pretty much, yeah. And I'm sure there's nothing wrong with some unpredictability here and there but it gets more weirder as the years go on where you go into a show not knowing what's going to be on said show when you also repeatedly hype yourself up as a billion dollar company with all these big TV deals or trips to Saudi Arabia (a show, I may add, is built weeks in advance because, well, it wants to attract the interest of the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia the Saudi fans). Like, you don't see Disney revealing before people watch a movie on Disney+ what film they're going to be seeing. There's enough information in advance in the description to let you know what that film is going to be about and whose in it because they want you to watch the damn thing. Maybe Raw would be better if we got an SNL-style open introducing this week's cast members
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Post by eJm on Mar 14, 2021 15:08:24 GMT -5
Pretty much, yeah. And I'm sure there's nothing wrong with some unpredictability here and there but it gets more weirder as the years go on where you go into a show not knowing what's going to be on said show when you also repeatedly hype yourself up as a billion dollar company with all these big TV deals or trips to Saudi Arabia (a show, I may add, is built weeks in advance because, well, it wants to attract the interest of the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia the Saudi fans). Like, you don't see Disney revealing before people watch a movie on Disney+ what film they're going to be seeing. There's enough information in advance in the description to let you know what that film is going to be about and whose in it because they want you to watch the damn thing. Maybe Raw would be better if we got an SNL-style open introducing this week's cast members ...that's amazing and should totally happen. Can you picture Bobby Lashley finishing up beating up a bar full of dudes, turning to the camera and smiling with the belt? That sounds like the best thing ever.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 14, 2021 15:42:11 GMT -5
Maybe Raw would be better if we got an SNL-style open introducing this week's cast members ...that's amazing and should totally happen. Can you picture Bobby Lashley finishing up beating up a bar full of dudes, turning to the camera and smiling with the belt? That sounds like the best thing ever. Shit I haven't watched an episode of Raw in over a year and I'd tune in for that.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 14, 2021 18:08:26 GMT -5
AEW much like New Japan books everything in blocks. There are feuds that are just meant for a few weeks, feuds that are meant for special Dynamites, and feuds built for PPVs. I get why WWE doesn't do that but I do think taking a similar approach would be good... and honesrly they can still do that with the monthly.ppvs And then there's the long-term stuff like Hangman's fall from grace and subsequent gradual rise to the top and Omega embracing his dark side. And the best thing is that all of these storytelling aspects work in concert with one another.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 14, 2021 18:56:33 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of long-term booking and an acknowledgment of continuity in wrestling. Hell, I used to get excited when WWE brought up something that happened years ago as a point of contest or bonding between two people in a new angle.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Mar 14, 2021 20:05:49 GMT -5
I think that AEW recognize that nobody cares if a story is predictable if it makes sense and is satisfying. Everyone knew that MJF would turn against the Inner Circle and be a bigger villain but it was satisfying to watch his machinations and the end result was great. Everyone knew that Moxley would beat Kingston in their feud but it was a satisfying journey with great promos and a great match to cap it off.
It means that when there's a genuine swerve then it's fresh and exciting, nobody expected Brodie to demolish Cody like he did and that made it one of the greatest demolitions of a main event talent ever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 21:53:43 GMT -5
They're not reinventing the wheel, but I don't think they need to. WWE tries to be anything BUT wrestling, to its own detriment. I try not to let my own distaste for the WWE product shape my opinions, but.. yeah.
AEW is like someone looked at what worked from the old school, sees what everyone likes in the new, and tries to blend it all together in a cohesive element. While I find older styles of wrestling to be occasionally boring to watch, I do miss the longer-term storytelling and logical booking, which is what WWE has been missing for a long time now.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 14, 2021 22:47:19 GMT -5
I like that their ranking system for the most part has made a ton of sense and not completely collapsed in on itself in the first year. Losing streaks can feel good when they're snapped like with Cutler and Lee Johnson, runs and turning things around or slipping can factor in to wrestlers card placements, not wrestling at all for a few weeks means you can lose your spot to someone who has been winning more lately, and quality of opponents matter, beating 10 tomato cans on DARK won't help you as much as beating two established midcard acts/teams might.
It isn't as important as getting a title but being in the Top 5 definitely feels like "This Guy/Girl/Team has something to strive for", especially when you have say as much depth as the AEW Tag Division does currently to be in the top five rankings of it. The reset aspect also helps overall storylines and storytelling where someone could have better or worse years. It's a good way to work off of last year or start fresh and make a new run at the top.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 14, 2021 23:02:34 GMT -5
I think that AEW recognize that nobody cares if a story is predictable if it makes sense and is satisfying. Everyone knew that MJF would turn against the Inner Circle and be a bigger villain but it was satisfying to watch his machinations and the end result was great. Everyone knew that Moxley would beat Kingston in their feud but it was a satisfying journey with great promos and a great match to cap it off. It means that when there's a genuine swerve then it's fresh and exciting, nobody expected Brodie to demolish Cody like he did and that made it one of the greatest demolitions of a main event talent ever. Predictable stories are fine. Most people just want a good story told and often times while good stories do have plot twists, the conclusion is almost always predictable rather than filled with swerves. I blame the Monday Night Wars-era of wrestling on a lot of the "there must be swerves" mindset when WCW and WWF had to constantly outdo the other with surprises in order to get people to tune in over their competitors.
I'll bring up NJPW, which also has IMO some of the best, most consistent presentation in pro wrestling. Most NJPW matches have very predictable results. I can't remember the last time I was genuinely shocked by a NJPW match's ending; maybe EVIL beating Naito for the IWGP Heavyweight/IC Championships last year. But you watch for the stories being told in the ring between the wrestlers, not just for the ending. It's a different way of watching wrestling compared to American wrestling, but it's one I've grown to appreciate since I stepped outside that WWE/American bubble.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,480
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Post by Bo Rida on Mar 15, 2021 2:23:25 GMT -5
Like others have basically said the main thing is that a higher proportion of storylines are charachter driven.
In other promotions there's often the feeling that you could often replace the wrestlers in the story and it would play out exactly the same. Modern WWE in particular due to scripted promos.
(Of course there are many exceptions)
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 15, 2021 6:14:13 GMT -5
It does often feel like it's breaking trends, but mostly because I think there haven't been many modern era prime time wrestling shows, if we begin that timeline from Nitro in '95 through TNA's stint on Spike and WWE's main shows over the years, keep such an emphasis on long-term booking and character-driven storytelling. For a lot of modern wrestling history multi-hour prime time shows have revolved more around "moments" (something we've talked about a lot regarding WWE's booking) and sometimes repetitive schticks that people get comfortable watching. Not to say there hasn't been strong storytelling in the past, of course, but it hasn't felt this consistent. Makes me wonder if part of how they're doing that is by limiting themselves to four PPVs a year.
And yeah, even things they come up with like the ranking system/win-loss records seem to be engineered with "how do we make stories out of this idea?" in mind, rather than coming off like random attempts to make a change to a pre-existing product or otherwise stand out from the competition. I mean, differentiating itself from WWE was almost undoubtedly why they introduced those things, but they actually often end up playing a role in things like motivations and planting the seeds for feuds or angles.
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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 15, 2021 9:16:28 GMT -5
i think big things that help AEW breaking from tradional trend are that: Khan is an fresher,younger mind that us very genrr savvy. And that Kenny for example,has been on the record that he wants to evolve wrestling ,add new methos of storytelling and such. I think they take a rather simple booking approach with logical storytelling and add bells and whistles here and there and try new things here and there, which is really all you need in wrestling. I also think the announcing of the cards in advance is a strong point that I wish we’d see more of in WWE. I think Khan’s age helps a lot with keeping up with the times and adapting. For comparison’s sake, Khan’s age now (38) is how old Vince was in 1983. I also think the limited amount of canon TV and PPV they have to produce is another strong point in letting them book logical storylines with beginnings, middles and ends and sticking to it. WWE has become too big for one man to spearhead the creative direction when he’s producing 5 hours of new primetime content each week and 12-15 PPVs per year. The schedule is chaotic and it shows in the booking at times (although Smackdown the last year or two has seemed to find a good balance of storytelling at a solid pace).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 10:09:59 GMT -5
I’ll never understand the lack of time argument when they have a two hour YouTube show they fill with squash matches.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Mar 15, 2021 12:35:53 GMT -5
While characters still generally fall into "Face" and "Heel" they still generally have different personalities and attributes.
For instance, not every Face is a squeaky clean hero of justice and virtue. You've got guys like Darby Allin who is an edgy anti-hero who will do anything to himself for a win, or the Young Bucks who have a hell of a mean streak when it comes down to it, Orange Cassidy who is generally apathetic about everything but is still an absurdly good athlete, or Jon Moxley who's just a tough bastard who LOVES a good fight
And the Heels aren't all buddies, and you can hate them for very different reasons and to varying degrees. MJF you hate with all your soul because he's a just a slimy prick who goes out of his way to be a dick, Jericho is someone you love to hate because he's just so entertaining in being a dick, Eddie Kingston was a very complex, tragic and sympathetic villain who you were kind of rooting for, Kenny Omega's a maniacal supervillain, or Matt Hardy whose just a slimy as hell promoter.
As compared to a lot of wrestling where heels are just generically "a prick" and faces are just generically "nice", AEW has distinct characters not caricatures.
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