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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 13, 2021 19:38:27 GMT -5
I always think of AR Fox when this topic comes up, I'm amazed he hasn't been picked up for a major gig yet. I know AR has a weird past but I'm kinda shocked too? Like no company has picked him up period. As for the others, there's potential AEW could get a Moriarty but Lio Rush is signed to New Japan STRONG and Tankman's in MLW so they aren't "Free agent" Indie Guys as much as most. AJ Gray's got a lot of baggage as others have also said. Tankman could have been had, he signed with MLW mid-2020.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 13, 2021 19:40:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure that diversity on the roster is an issue. Whether diversity is an issue in how booking decisions are made and who benefits from them remains to be seen. So far, AEW seems committed to showcasing a wide array of voices among their talent. It is my fervent hope that the cream is allowed to rise to the top over time and that those elite wrestlers will be at least as varied as we're seeing now.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 13, 2021 20:11:12 GMT -5
Also if this relationship with NJPW bears fruit, I'd love to see guys like Lio Rush and ACH show up sometime. I don't know this for sure, but I feel pretty confident projecting that guys like ACH and Lio aren't under TV-exclusive contracts with NJPW, given how they've also shown up in MLW during the pandemic. That said, just because somebody's working under a non-exclusive contract or was an indy free agent recently doesn't mean they're necessarily looking for an AEW contract at the moment. Chris Bey struck me as a guy who knew he had a legit shot to get over big in a pretty short span of time, so he gambled on himself and went with Impact, a smaller promotion where he'd get a chance to rise to the top pretty quickly, become established, and build his name/reputation up enough that next time he's up for a contract he'll likely be able to demand a decent fee from whoever wants him. Same with Calvin Tankman; barring a situation like with Jacob Fatu where MLW just decides to back the money truck up to keep him around long term, I think he's guaranteeing that his next contract will be more on his terms than if he just tried to roll up in AEW or WWE earlier (e.g. "No, I don't think I need much time working at the PC/on Dark/etc., thank you"). But again, a lot of AEW's issues with minority representation in the men's main event scene revolved around timing, and how many of the best options out there for guys with instant top of the card credibility were already under contract elsewhere and/or might not have wanted to roll the dice on AEW right away in case it was a flash in the pan. I have to think that if and when he becomes available next AEW would be all over trying to get Willie Mack: super talented, great physical presence and charisma, easy to cheer for, and the Bucks would undoubtedly love having another guy repping SoCal. Willie's only weakness is that he's not a super strong promo, but AEW's a promotion that actually believes in managers and mouthpieces, so he'd be fine. Good call on Moriarty, too: I feel like AEW's one weakness with its roster so far is that I wish it had more technical/submission wrestlers getting time in the spotlight, and he'd be a great candidate.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 13, 2021 23:38:54 GMT -5
Honestly I really dont think Willie Mack is that good or charismatic
It might be sour taste from LU when he was a Stone Cols rip off.
Now Moose,thats a star but I think IMPACT wont let him go.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 13, 2021 23:46:50 GMT -5
I still think if they want a POC main event heel or TNT Title holder AC Mack is there for the taking
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Post by 3cheers4ramirez on Mar 14, 2021 4:31:31 GMT -5
It feels like an increasing problem by comparison. Since the last discussion on it, WWE started pushing Hurt Business, which feels much more like a modern day Horsemen than MJF's crew likely will. I find Hurt Business much more compelling than every faction AEW has. Just a bunch of stylish dudes wrecking the poor and making money. I unironically think the Hurt Business was originally supposed to be a racist BLM faction. There were reports beforehand that WWE wanted a "new nation", and only a couple of months later they tried to make a political statement by basing Retribution off 'Antifa' and making them a bunch of losers. I would assume much like New Day when they were going to be a "New Nation" (In the weeks before they became similarly woeful black gospel faces and bombed) Lashley and MVP managed to squash it. And I mean, one of the black guys getting pushed in WWE is doing a Shaka Zulu gimmick ATM. If AEW had Lashley and MVP, they'd definitely be pushing them just as hard as WWE is. Whenever WWE does like... anything with a black talent where the gimmick relates to blackness and isn't just a ethnically agnostic archetype, I assume that the original idea was probably racist in origin and if it plays out well, it's because the talent involved have somehow tricked Vince into not doing it. It's stunning to me that the conclusion drawn from this would be that AEW doesn't have a problem with diversity, but that WWE is an out and out racist company. If you ranked all the male solo wrestlers in AEW, at what number would you reach the first person who's black? In a business where you can make anyone anything, they've barely tried. I can't really see how you can argue around that.
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 14, 2021 6:38:27 GMT -5
I unironically think the Hurt Business was originally supposed to be a racist BLM faction. There were reports beforehand that WWE wanted a "new nation", and only a couple of months later they tried to make a political statement by basing Retribution off 'Antifa' and making them a bunch of losers. I would assume much like New Day when they were going to be a "New Nation" (In the weeks before they became similarly woeful black gospel faces and bombed) Lashley and MVP managed to squash it. And I mean, one of the black guys getting pushed in WWE is doing a Shaka Zulu gimmick ATM. If AEW had Lashley and MVP, they'd definitely be pushing them just as hard as WWE is. Whenever WWE does like... anything with a black talent where the gimmick relates to blackness and isn't just a ethnically agnostic archetype, I assume that the original idea was probably racist in origin and if it plays out well, it's because the talent involved have somehow tricked Vince into not doing it. It's stunning to me that the conclusion drawn from this would be that AEW doesn't have a problem with diversity, but that WWE is an out and out racist company. If you ranked all the male solo wrestlers in AEW, at what number would you reach the first person who's black? In a business where you can make anyone anything, they've barely tried. I can't really see how you can argue around that. Maybe because WWE has a long and storied history of racist and racially motivated incidents both on and off screen... and AEW well, just doesn't.
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Glitch
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Post by Glitch on Mar 14, 2021 6:46:34 GMT -5
I unironically think the Hurt Business was originally supposed to be a racist BLM faction. There were reports beforehand that WWE wanted a "new nation", and only a couple of months later they tried to make a political statement by basing Retribution off 'Antifa' and making them a bunch of losers. I would assume much like New Day when they were going to be a "New Nation" (In the weeks before they became similarly woeful black gospel faces and bombed) Lashley and MVP managed to squash it. And I mean, one of the black guys getting pushed in WWE is doing a Shaka Zulu gimmick ATM. If AEW had Lashley and MVP, they'd definitely be pushing them just as hard as WWE is. Whenever WWE does like... anything with a black talent where the gimmick relates to blackness and isn't just a ethnically agnostic archetype, I assume that the original idea was probably racist in origin and if it plays out well, it's because the talent involved have somehow tricked Vince into not doing it. It's stunning to me that the conclusion drawn from this would be that AEW doesn't have a problem with diversity, but that WWE is an out and out racist company. If you ranked all the male solo wrestlers in AEW, at what number would you reach the first person who's black? In a business where you can make anyone anything, they've barely tried. I can't really see how you can argue around that. WWE is seen as racist because they have a history of being just that it. The point is that lack of diversity in both companies happens for very different reasons. And no, you can't just make anybody into anything. It's a two sided effort. Good booking can only do so much if the person being pushed isn't talented enough to carry that role. That's the history of pro wrestling. AEW themselves tried to push Scorpio Sky to the main event but he didn't have the talent to do so (at least for now).
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Mar 14, 2021 7:39:29 GMT -5
If you could make someone a major star through strength of push alone, Randy Orton would be bigger than the Rock, Roman Reigns would have received no pushback and Jinder Mahal would be a force to be reckoned with. You cannot force the audience to care about a guy just because they're pushed, ask Shawn Spears and Scorpio Sky. I like both but their pushes didn't generate any buzz the way Darby's did because he has charisma, he has the it factor and they don't.
AEW are building up their next set of future stars, as someone who watches dark, I am invested in Lee Johnson, Top Flight, The Acclaimed and so on, I've been with them from day one and I will mark out hard when they eventually win titles. The last thing I want is to see them burn through five years of storytelling in six months because the WWE have shown, it's easy to sour the audience on a guy by hotshotting them and hard as hell to get them back onside after that.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 14, 2021 7:56:46 GMT -5
I unironically think the Hurt Business was originally supposed to be a racist BLM faction. There were reports beforehand that WWE wanted a "new nation", and only a couple of months later they tried to make a political statement by basing Retribution off 'Antifa' and making them a bunch of losers. I would assume much like New Day when they were going to be a "New Nation" (In the weeks before they became similarly woeful black gospel faces and bombed) Lashley and MVP managed to squash it. And I mean, one of the black guys getting pushed in WWE is doing a Shaka Zulu gimmick ATM. If AEW had Lashley and MVP, they'd definitely be pushing them just as hard as WWE is. Whenever WWE does like... anything with a black talent where the gimmick relates to blackness and isn't just a ethnically agnostic archetype, I assume that the original idea was probably racist in origin and if it plays out well, it's because the talent involved have somehow tricked Vince into not doing it. It's stunning to me that the conclusion drawn from this would be that AEW doesn't have a problem with diversity, but that WWE is an out and out racist company. If you ranked all the male solo wrestlers in AEW, at what number would you reach the first person who's black? In a business where you can make anyone anything, they've barely tried. I can't really see how you can argue around that. It's stunning to me that we're going to compare and contrast AEW, whose discussed issue is simply main event diversity, against WWE, a company that has had so many out-and-out storyline problems with racist caricatures, ethnic heels, Triple H vs. Booker T, and backstage scandals aplenty. There's validity in the question of if AEW has diversity issues. But there is absolutely zero comparison point on the issues of that against WWE's issues with race. Them having a black world champion doesn't make them inherently, definitely better on this front given the backstage issues and creative decisions the company makes time and again.
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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 14, 2021 8:22:03 GMT -5
It's stunning to me that the conclusion drawn from this would be that AEW doesn't have a problem with diversity, but that WWE is an out and out racist company. If you ranked all the male solo wrestlers in AEW, at what number would you reach the first person who's black? In a business where you can make anyone anything, they've barely tried. I can't really see how you can argue around that. It's stunning to me that we're going to compare and contrast AEW, whose discussed issue is simply main event diversity, against WWE, a company that has had so many out-and-out storyline problems with racist caricatures, ethnic heels, Triple H vs. Booker T, and backstage scandals aplenty. There's validity in the question of if AEW has diversity issues. But there is absolutely zero comparison point on the issues of that against WWE's issues with race. Them having a black world champion doesn't make them inherently, definitely better on this front given the backstage issues and creative decisions the company makes time and again. Also hard to compare a company that started a year and a half ago, against a company that’s had a history for 40-50 years. Can only really compare the time that they overlap when it comes to how progressive the companies are and how many missteps there have been.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 8:34:48 GMT -5
I think the biggest issue is them touting diversity when they barely put time on their POC talent or relegated them to the mid card. If they can make Darby Allin an upper mid carder why not Private Party, Penta, Fenix, etc? They're doing better now but I have a feeling the ME scene is gonna be chock full of white males for a good while and we ll be having this conversation again next year.
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Post by pinja on Mar 14, 2021 8:42:35 GMT -5
To clarify: I argued from a viewer's perspectice, not from a corporate's. When I watch WWE, I get more enojoyable diversity than when I watch AEW. So if that's a factor for me (it is), WWE has an advantage. The company's culture does not have to reflect what it presents to me and the other way around. It may be a fact that AEW is not racist as a corporate entity, but that does not necessarily make a diverse product.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 14, 2021 8:42:43 GMT -5
I think the biggest issue is them touting diversity when they barely put time on their POC talent or relegated them to the mid card. If they can make Darby Allin an upper mid carder why not Private Party, Penta, Fenix, etc? They're doing better now but I have a feeling the ME scene is gonna be chock full of white males for a good while and we ll be having this conversation again next year. The thing is the people in the main event right now are talented enough to be there, and probably should be there. But more PoC will probably start making their way more into the mix, as you said Penta and Fenix, as things go on. Sky would also be good if he can find something. Private Party are still getting seasoning tbh. They're improving a lot though, and Quen's added some muscle mass. They might be tag champs by the end of the year.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 14, 2021 8:43:27 GMT -5
It's stunning to me that we're going to compare and contrast AEW, whose discussed issue is simply main event diversity, against WWE, a company that has had so many out-and-out storyline problems with racist caricatures, ethnic heels, Triple H vs. Booker T, and backstage scandals aplenty. There's validity in the question of if AEW has diversity issues. But there is absolutely zero comparison point on the issues of that against WWE's issues with race. Them having a black world champion doesn't make them inherently, definitely better on this front given the backstage issues and creative decisions the company makes time and again. Also hard to compare a company that started a year and a half ago, against a company that’s had a history for 40-50 years. Can only really compare the time that they overlap when it comes to how progressive the companies are and how many missteps there have been. And if we want to compare time until a POC gets the world title, AEW has most of a decade to go if we're counting Vince Sr's booking of the company, and if not then they have actual decades. I'd say that kinda works in favour of the idea that comparing relative track records on race isn't very helpful or useful at all. But even if we want to talk only the time they have coexisted for comparison (which sheds so much stuff from WWE's record, including Vince literally just dropping an n bomb), the company's issues are legitimately not comparable and I think that trying to use how many black men Vince has pushed to try and show that it's doing 'better' than AEW isn't it. A black man just showed up on TV a week ago with a goddamned spear. We can talk about AEW's issues. I think trying to compare them to WWE isn't only a needless fandom slapfight, but actively laughable.
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Post by 3cheers4ramirez on Mar 14, 2021 8:51:47 GMT -5
It's stunning to me that the conclusion drawn from this would be that AEW doesn't have a problem with diversity, but that WWE is an out and out racist company. If you ranked all the male solo wrestlers in AEW, at what number would you reach the first person who's black? In a business where you can make anyone anything, they've barely tried. I can't really see how you can argue around that. WWE is seen as racist because they have a history of being just that it. The point is that lack of diversity in both companies happens for very different reasons. And no, you can't just make anybody into anything. It's a two sided effort. Good booking can only do so much if the person being pushed isn't talented enough to carry that role. That's the history of pro wrestling. AEW themselves tried to push Scorpio Sky to the main event but he didn't have the talent to do so (at least for now). I'm not defending things the WWE has done in the past. I am saying that bringing them up in an AEW thread, to say that they are actually currently worse on this issue - because there's probably actually a racist backstory behind all the black wrestlers they push - is absurd. Wishcasting racism to avoid giving anybody involved any credit. AEW has one of the most patient and loving fanbases of any company to have ever existed. There are people convincing themselves they are excited to watch the Big Show wrestle in 2021, because he's in AEW. Tony Khan and The Elite are some of the most acclaimed creative minds around. Of course they could really get somebody over if they put some effort into it. Scorpio Sky's 'main event push' involved him winning a few matches on Dark, wrestling for the secondary title and losing. I'm not sure that's enough to justify throwing your hands up and saying well we tried but there just aren't any black wrestlers who are good enough.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 14, 2021 8:52:17 GMT -5
Looking at the thread and some topics being discussed I'm just gonna go over a few of the points from my perspective, ain't saying I'm right it's just my own perspective, which probably differs from others.
Is AEW More Diverse as a roster than last year?: Yes, 100 percent they are and that shouldn't even be a debate
Should there be more diversity in the Males Main Event?: There are a lot of white guys in the main event as it stands, but with a ton of youth and upside in the PoC section of the AEW roster, with Kingston, Penta, Fenix, Guevara, and PNP around the upper currently, I feel like it could be a matter of time.
Could AEW sign more PoC wrestlers more ready for a main event spotlight?: Possibly yes, but AEW's roster is already very big with a very stacked upper card, maybe now wouldn't be the time and they might focus on their in house talent? Or for potential Free Agents (Moose) to possibly hit the market.
AEW's definitely gotten better at vatiery of talent especially when trying to showcase them on TV, but I think like with other things within AEW, it's a process, but given how much of a turnaround the women's division has had in a year, I think AEW is actively trying to diversify the roster and prepare for both the now and the future decade of the company.
Still a very young company, but they have a lot of good will and have shown they can make very steady growth with divisions, talent, and diversity already. I just hope that continues like I am sure we are all hoping for.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 14, 2021 8:54:41 GMT -5
WWE is seen as racist because they have a history of being just that it. The point is that lack of diversity in both companies happens for very different reasons. And no, you can't just make anybody into anything. It's a two sided effort. Good booking can only do so much if the person being pushed isn't talented enough to carry that role. That's the history of pro wrestling. AEW themselves tried to push Scorpio Sky to the main event but he didn't have the talent to do so (at least for now). Scorpio Sky's 'main event push' involved him winning a few matches on Dark, wrestling for the secondary title and losing. I'm not sure that's enough to justify throwing your hands up and saying well we tried but there just aren't any black wrestlers who are good enough. Sky is one half of the first ever AEW Tag Champions, beating The Lucha Bros for the belts, he's had a world title match and was one of the first challengers for the belt vs Jericho, he's challenged for the TNT Title not once but twice. Let's not act like Scorpio Sky hasn't been pushed throughout his tenure and AEW aren't trying to make him stick in the upper card. They are still trying with him given he just turned heel and tried to break Darby's ankle post match. He was injured for a few months, that didn't help, but he has had consistent looks at the upper card, and holds an accolade as being one of the first champions in the company period. It's always been about the gimmick with Sky, because when he wrestles he shows why he can be upper card, his matches are great. I hope he can find it, because I want to care about the guy.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 8:56:12 GMT -5
I'm gonna give it time. If we re having the same conversation next year however, I dunno if I can wait. AEW touts a diverse company, everywhere else but the main event scene is full of diversity. Why should we give them a longer leash than WWE? They should do better. Thats my opinion
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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 14, 2021 9:15:12 GMT -5
Also hard to compare a company that started a year and a half ago, against a company that’s had a history for 40-50 years. Can only really compare the time that they overlap when it comes to how progressive the companies are and how many missteps there have been. And if we want to compare time until a POC gets the world title, AEW has most of a decade to go if we're counting Vince Sr's booking of the company, and if not then they have actual decades. I'd say that kinda works in favour of the idea that comparing relative track records on race isn't very helpful or useful at all. But even if we want to talk only the time they have coexisted for comparison (which sheds so much stuff from WWE's record, including Vince literally just dropping an n bomb), the company's issues are legitimately not comparable and I think that trying to use how many black men Vince has pushed to try and show that it's doing 'better' than AEW isn't it. A black man just showed up on TV a week ago with a goddamned spear. We can talk about AEW's issues. I think trying to compare them to WWE isn't only a needless fandom slapfight, but actively laughable. I think my post was fairly benign and somehow you got that there was some type of fandom slap fight and actively laughable opinion out of it. You do you.
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