lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,690
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 14:36:14 GMT -5
Also in spite of Cutler's and Avalon's jobby roles, they're very experienced veterans and also a part of AEW's staff. Lee Johnson's the equivalent of a Young Boy. I think we re not gonna agree on this one. Im bowing out, I do get what you're saying though. All I'm saying is that AEW could've done better with those two.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 14, 2021 14:39:10 GMT -5
I think they will get better with them in the long term. Lee Johnson just got signed to a full-term deal last month and Shawn Dean a week and a half ago. Until then, they were part-timers (and that was in spite of Lee being part of the Nightmare Family).
Best way to get either to more prominent places on the card is to make noise for them.
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Glitch
King Koopa
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,714
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Post by Glitch on Mar 15, 2021 6:50:20 GMT -5
WWE is seen as racist because they have a history of being just that it. The point is that lack of diversity in both companies happens for very different reasons. And no, you can't just make anybody into anything. It's a two sided effort. Good booking can only do so much if the person being pushed isn't talented enough to carry that role. That's the history of pro wrestling. AEW themselves tried to push Scorpio Sky to the main event but he didn't have the talent to do so (at least for now). I'm not defending things the WWE has done in the past. I am saying that bringing them up in an AEW thread, to say that they are actually currently worse on this issue - because there's probably actually a racist backstory behind all the black wrestlers they push - is absurd. Wishcasting racism to avoid giving anybody involved any credit. AEW has one of the most patient and loving fanbases of any company to have ever existed. There are people convincing themselves they are excited to watch the Big Show wrestle in 2021, because he's in AEW. Tony Khan and The Elite are some of the most acclaimed creative minds around. Of course they could really get somebody over if they put some effort into it. Scorpio Sky's 'main event push' involved him winning a few matches on Dark, wrestling for the secondary title and losing. I'm not sure that's enough to justify throwing your hands up and saying well we tried but there just aren't any black wrestlers who are good enough. The first four pages of this thread was very heavily discussing why this would be an issue in AEW. In no way were members here trying to avoid the subject, as you make it sound. Eventually wwe would be brought up for comparison since they have had a near monopoly on the American wrestling scene for 18 years. As for the Big Show, people don't have to convince themselves to be excited for him. He's a guy who was there for big moments in the monday night wars, and has been active for decades in wrestling. His image sells itself. And no, you can't just throw any jobber into the main event scene and expect it to work if you book it just right. A performer has to be able to carry the spot they are in( no matter how good the story is). This has been the truth since wrestling began. I don't know why you think it's somehow different now.
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Post by 3cheers4ramirez on Mar 15, 2021 17:33:10 GMT -5
I'm not defending things the WWE has done in the past. I am saying that bringing them up in an AEW thread, to say that they are actually currently worse on this issue - because there's probably actually a racist backstory behind all the black wrestlers they push - is absurd. Wishcasting racism to avoid giving anybody involved any credit. AEW has one of the most patient and loving fanbases of any company to have ever existed. There are people convincing themselves they are excited to watch the Big Show wrestle in 2021, because he's in AEW. Tony Khan and The Elite are some of the most acclaimed creative minds around. Of course they could really get somebody over if they put some effort into it. Scorpio Sky's 'main event push' involved him winning a few matches on Dark, wrestling for the secondary title and losing. I'm not sure that's enough to justify throwing your hands up and saying well we tried but there just aren't any black wrestlers who are good enough. The first four pages of this thread was very heavily discussing why this would be an issue in AEW. In no way were members here trying to avoid the subject, as you make it sound. Eventually wwe would be brought up for comparison since they have had a near monopoly on the American wrestling scene for 18 years. As for the Big Show, people don't have to convince themselves to be excited for him. He's a guy who was there for big moments in the monday night wars, and has been active for decades in wrestling. His image sells itself. And no, you can't just throw any jobber into the main event scene and expect it to work if you book it just right. A performer has to be able to carry the spot they are in( no matter how good the story is). This has been the truth since wrestling began. I don't know why you think it's somehow different now. I think the discrepancy comes from the idea that there isn't a black wrestler available to AEW, who's current talent level sits above 'jobber'.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,690
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 16, 2021 9:20:39 GMT -5
The first four pages of this thread was very heavily discussing why this would be an issue in AEW. In no way were members here trying to avoid the subject, as you make it sound. Eventually wwe would be brought up for comparison since they have had a near monopoly on the American wrestling scene for 18 years. As for the Big Show, people don't have to convince themselves to be excited for him. He's a guy who was there for big moments in the monday night wars, and has been active for decades in wrestling. His image sells itself. And no, you can't just throw any jobber into the main event scene and expect it to work if you book it just right. A performer has to be able to carry the spot they are in( no matter how good the story is). This has been the truth since wrestling began. I don't know why you think it's somehow different now. I think the discrepancy comes from the idea that there isn't a black wrestler available to AEW, who's current talent level sits above 'jobber'. Yep that's one of my points. I dont like that connotation at all.
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 16, 2021 10:42:24 GMT -5
I think the discrepancy comes from the idea that there isn't a black wrestler available to AEW, who's current talent level sits above 'jobber'. Yep that's one of my points. I dont like that connotation at all. Enlighten us then if there's so called connotations in play. I mean, I've seen the likes of Lee Moriarty mentioned. I love Lee Moriarty, I think he's great, but I struggle to believe he's going to be able to walk through the door and straight into an upper card spot when someone like Ethan Page, who has spent the past decade or so cultivating a reputation on the indies, being a big deal on weekly TV on Impact and gaining himself a solid online presence was met with a chorus of 'who?' all over AEW's social media. I'm struggling to think of a single wrestler of colour who is currently a free agent who sits above an Ethan Page for example in terms of exposure so I'm genuinely interested to hear who I'm overlooking.
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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 16, 2021 11:08:16 GMT -5
Yep that's one of my points. I dont like that connotation at all. Enlighten us then if there's so called connotations in play. I mean, I've seen the likes of Lee Moriarty mentioned. I love Lee Moriarty, I think he's great, but I struggle to believe he's going to be able to walk through the door and straight into an upper card spot when someone like Ethan Page, who has spent the past decade or so cultivating a reputation on the indies, being a big deal on weekly TV on Impact and gaining himself a solid online presence was met with a chorus of 'who?' all over AEW's social media. I'm struggling to think of a single wrestler of colour who is currently a free agent who sits above an Ethan Page for example in terms of exposure so I'm genuinely interested to hear who I'm overlooking. Why is it limited to currently? What about all of the free agents that signed since AEW has been a thing.
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 16, 2021 11:37:21 GMT -5
Enlighten us then if there's so called connotations in play. I mean, I've seen the likes of Lee Moriarty mentioned. I love Lee Moriarty, I think he's great, but I struggle to believe he's going to be able to walk through the door and straight into an upper card spot when someone like Ethan Page, who has spent the past decade or so cultivating a reputation on the indies, being a big deal on weekly TV on Impact and gaining himself a solid online presence was met with a chorus of 'who?' all over AEW's social media. I'm struggling to think of a single wrestler of colour who is currently a free agent who sits above an Ethan Page for example in terms of exposure so I'm genuinely interested to hear who I'm overlooking. Why is it limited to currently? What about all of the free agents that signed since AEW has been a thing. Because the message I quoted was talking in terms of current wrestlers, as seen below. I think the discrepancy comes from the idea that there isn't a black wrestler available to AEW, who's current talent level sits above 'jobber'. I think AEW's track record in signing wrestlers that have been available to them shows that there's no problem in signing wrestlers from diverse backgrounds. Also, to discuss wrestlers that are now signed elsewhere would imply that there was never an AEW offer on the table and not that the wrestler in question simply chose to sign elsewhere for whatever reason. For all we know AEW could have tried to sign any number of wrestlers of colour that ended up signing elsewhere and therefore it wouldn't be fair to discuss the in's and out's of those deals when we don't know the details.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Mar 16, 2021 11:54:36 GMT -5
I am sad that Suge D didn't end up with AEW full-time, but apparently he wasn't interested in a contract and wanted to stay on the indies. Which, hey, do what you gotta do for what you think is best for your career. Jericho gave him some real shine and I hope it helps him with whatever career prospects he has. I don't know Homie's circumstances, but this is kinda shocking Is AEW offering that little/is there THAT much more money available on the Indies, especially during a Pandemic when you can't really have packed houses?
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Mar 16, 2021 12:08:55 GMT -5
It sucks how Archer catching the covid destroyed Hobbs original push, he couldve been involved in the feud with the Elite. I was enjoying his original Face run as "Will Power" Hobbs, however the combination of his physique and having an ice grill of THIS caliber There's probably more money in him being a heel Also heard him do a promo on his own for the first time on Elevation and he definitely knows what to do with a Mic
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,690
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 16, 2021 12:11:10 GMT -5
Yep that's one of my points. I dont like that connotation at all. Enlighten us then if there's so called connotations in play. I mean, I've seen the likes of Lee Moriarty mentioned. I love Lee Moriarty, I think he's great, but I struggle to believe he's going to be able to walk through the door and straight into an upper card spot when someone like Ethan Page, who has spent the past decade or so cultivating a reputation on the indies, being a big deal on weekly TV on Impact and gaining himself a solid online presence was met with a chorus of 'who?' all over AEW's social media. I'm struggling to think of a single wrestler of colour who is currently a free agent who sits above an Ethan Page for example in terms of exposure so I'm genuinely interested to hear who I'm overlooking. Its their job to get us to care. AEW s issue with new talent is that they assume the audience knows who they are. Its a wrestling wide problem, they need to do videos and vignettes like they've been doing for some wrestlers
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Post by toodarkmark on Mar 16, 2021 12:33:04 GMT -5
They had overtures to Willie Mack and Chris Bey early on, but they chose Impact over them. Thank goodness Eddie Kingston, Ricky Starks and Hobbs picked AEW over the WWE offers they got after showing up on TV. Building up Lee Johnson, Max Caster, Hobbs and Shawn Dean is their best best. More future star profiles, like the first one on Elevation last night with Lee Johnson. Keep pushing Scorpio Sky even if he's not connecting how you want. Keep trying.
Who could they have signed since 2019 that would change this perception? MVP? I mean, give me the name of the person who signed with WWE, Impact or ROH in the last two years who would be a better fit then Scorpio Sky and Eddie Kingston in getting title shots? Honestly, here are the names of the indie (non-WWE) wrestlers they signed to full contracts since the the pandemic started. Anthony Bowens, Brian Cage, Dante Martin, Darius Martin, Eddie Kingston, Ethan Page, Lance Archer, Lee Johnson, Max Caster, Hobbs, Ten, Five, Ricky Starks, and Shawn Dean. 9 of their last 14 male signees are people who are at least half black. I think that they understood they had an issue with it last year, and have worked on trying to remedy it.
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Post by toodarkmark on Mar 16, 2021 12:40:04 GMT -5
Enlighten us then if there's so called connotations in play. I mean, I've seen the likes of Lee Moriarty mentioned. I love Lee Moriarty, I think he's great, but I struggle to believe he's going to be able to walk through the door and straight into an upper card spot when someone like Ethan Page, who has spent the past decade or so cultivating a reputation on the indies, being a big deal on weekly TV on Impact and gaining himself a solid online presence was met with a chorus of 'who?' all over AEW's social media. I'm struggling to think of a single wrestler of colour who is currently a free agent who sits above an Ethan Page for example in terms of exposure so I'm genuinely interested to hear who I'm overlooking. Its their job to get us to care. AEW s issue with new talent is that they assume the audience knows who they are. Its a wrestling wide problem, they need to do videos and vignettes like they've been doing for some wrestlers They did a video package about Lee Johnson last night on Elevation. Here's a link to the show. Lee Johnson's package starts at 37:00. www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4cbuWQFcJU
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Post by toodarkmark on Mar 16, 2021 12:41:18 GMT -5
I am sad that Suge D didn't end up with AEW full-time, but apparently he wasn't interested in a contract and wanted to stay on the indies. Which, hey, do what you gotta do for what you think is best for your career. Jericho gave him some real shine and I hope it helps him with whatever career prospects he has. I don't know Homie's circumstances, but this is kinda shocking Is AEW offering that little/is there THAT much more money available on the Indies, especially during a Pandemic when you can't really have packed houses? I was following him at the time on twitter. He made a conscious decision to not work there anymore, and was happy with the experiences he had. I think he wanted to focus more on working indies.
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Post by eJm on Mar 16, 2021 13:00:30 GMT -5
I don't know Homie's circumstances, but this is kinda shocking Is AEW offering that little/is there THAT much more money available on the Indies, especially during a Pandemic when you can't really have packed houses? I was following him at the time on twitter. He made a conscious decision to not work there anymore, and was happy with the experiences he had. I think he wanted to focus more on working indies. Was about to say, he seems like a guy who wants to make his own path and succeeding in some ways. He also likely wants to establish something to replace INDEPENDENT after all the stuff with David Starr last year came out, just more going from the statement last year than anything.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 16, 2021 13:13:20 GMT -5
Suge's a veteran of the scene. He got a big rub from AEW last year, but I gotta trust he knows what he's doing. Even better if he can fill the void left by David Starr while being far less of a scumbag than Starr turned out to be.
Maybe both Johnson and Dean could use a showcase match on Dynamite or even something like the Buy-In before a major weekend show. That did wonders for Private Party who were complete unknowns outside the NYC scene. If they're that green, then use a ring general kind of veteran who can cover up rough spots and make them look like a million bucks.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,690
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 16, 2021 13:17:31 GMT -5
Its their job to get us to care. AEW s issue with new talent is that they assume the audience knows who they are. Its a wrestling wide problem, they need to do videos and vignettes like they've been doing for some wrestlers They did a video package about Lee Johnson last night on Elevation. Here's a link to the show. Lee Johnson's package starts at 37:00. www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4cbuWQFcJUYup that's definitely a good sign of progress
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,690
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 16, 2021 13:18:06 GMT -5
Suge's a veteran of the scene. He got a big rub from AEW last year, but I gotta trust he knows what he's doing. Even better if he can fill the void left by David Starr while being far less of a scumbag than Starr turned out to be. Maybe both Johnson and Dean could use a showcase match on Dynamite or even something like the Buy-In before a major weekend show. That did wonders for Private Party who were complete unknowns outside the NYC scene. If they're that green, then use a ring general kind of veteran who can cover up rough spots and make them look like a million bucks. If signed on with AEW he probably would've been a jobber and just known as Pineapple Pete. I dont think he wanted that
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 16, 2021 13:21:15 GMT -5
Enlighten us then if there's so called connotations in play. I mean, I've seen the likes of Lee Moriarty mentioned. I love Lee Moriarty, I think he's great, but I struggle to believe he's going to be able to walk through the door and straight into an upper card spot when someone like Ethan Page, who has spent the past decade or so cultivating a reputation on the indies, being a big deal on weekly TV on Impact and gaining himself a solid online presence was met with a chorus of 'who?' all over AEW's social media. I'm struggling to think of a single wrestler of colour who is currently a free agent who sits above an Ethan Page for example in terms of exposure so I'm genuinely interested to hear who I'm overlooking. Its their job to get us to care. AEW s issue with new talent is that they assume the audience knows who they are. Its a wrestling wide problem, they need to do videos and vignettes like they've been doing for some wrestlers In fairness, while I don't agree with you in terms of their recruitment, you definitely have a point when it comes to debuts/preparing for debuts, it's been one of AEW's weaker points since day one.
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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 16, 2021 13:39:51 GMT -5
They had overtures to Willie Mack and Chris Bey early on, but they chose Impact over them. Thank goodness Eddie Kingston, Ricky Starks and Hobbs picked AEW over the WWE offers they got after showing up on TV. Building up Lee Johnson, Max Caster, Hobbs and Shawn Dean is their best best. More future star profiles, like the first one on Elevation last night with Lee Johnson. Keep pushing Scorpio Sky even if he's not connecting how you want. Keep trying. Who could they have signed since 2019 that would change this perception? MVP? I mean, give me the name of the person who signed with WWE, Impact or ROH in the last two years who would be a better fit then Scorpio Sky and Eddie Kingston in getting title shots? Honestly, here are the names of the indie (non-WWE) wrestlers they signed to full contracts since the the pandemic started. Anthony Bowens, Brian Cage, Dante Martin, Darius Martin, Eddie Kingston, Ethan Page, Lance Archer, Lee Johnson, Max Caster, Hobbs, Ten, Five, Ricky Starks, and Shawn Dean. 9 of their last 14 male signees are people who are at least half black. I think that they understood they had an issue with it last year, and have worked on trying to remedy it. Some of the bigger names that some might argue they could’ve went harder after were Calvin Tankman, Shane Strickland, AR Fox, Chris Bey, and Willie Mack. I think Moose re-signed early to mid 2019 and his contract expires this year.
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