Should Dark/Elevation not count towards the Ranking System?

[Deleted]

In terms of wins and losses, they do for AEW's wrestlers, but I keep thinking how damn easy it is for someone to wrestle on Dark for weeks, beat up jobbers (whether they are local guys, developmental, or AEW's jobbers like Luther, Serpentico, or Fuego del Sol), and suddenly, they're high in the rankings which would justify them, in kayfabe, for a title opportunity.

This is more of an argument about the quality of wins versus the quantity of wins, is what I'm saying.  Of course, that would also have to justify getting people who wrestle regularly on Dark onto Dynamite and see if they don't suck (see: Bear Country) to ensure you are making the right investment in giving them TV time, as well as a willingness to have them get wins over established names, and I am beginning to see why AEW prefers the model of using quantity over quality in creating new contenders out of nowhere for one-off matches.

[kingoftheindies]

I think its fine to use that if they make those guys contenders for the TNT title.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

No because then DARK and Elevation are useless shows. The matches counting towards the win/loss records make them matter at least in some regard. A lot of wrestlers since the pandemic began started on DARK got their first wins on DARK, and have overall found themselves and gotten signed full time.

Also not every match on DARK is a job squash and not every person who goes on jobber runs immediately gets into the top 5 if ever. Shaen Spears, Scorpio Sky, and Gunn Club went on tears of tomato cans and never sniffed the top five.

I think people put too much thought into the rankings and most of the time people do in fact get what would be constituted as quality wins in between soe of the DARK squashes. Overall, DARK and Elevation have been an important part for AEW not just for guys and girls finding themselves but getting consistent reps, and inevitably, everyone going into DARK is a trained pro wrestler looking for a win, and nothing is guaranteed.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

It's a mixed bag, and I think that the structure is sound, but the current storytelling around it isn't.

Eventually, those Dark wins have to transition into Dynamite wins. It's really hurting guys like Ricky Starks, Evil Uno, Stu Grayson, and Max Caster that they seem to rarely ever win on Dynamite while racking up records. If someone grinds away on the internet show where 1/3 of the audience sees it, then shows up on TV to lose, he's just a dude who loses all of his matches in the view of most of the audience...and to anyone who has been following the internet shows, he's still someone who loses to any opponent of substance.

And this is a major flaw in AEW's use of squash matches: the trick with squash matches back in the day was that, since they were the free TV content, it was expected that more people would see the squash matches than the PPV and house show matches that they advertised. A Youtube show that's easy to find, free, and streamable at leisure seems like the perfect successor to wide TV distribution - except that it is seen by fewer people overall, meaning that the buildup wins are just numbers on a screen and hardcore fan trivia instead of the dominant impression of the wrestlers.

My overall take is: the Dark winning streaks need more punctuation in the form of Dynamite wins, and it's to AEW's detriment that they've made less time for that lately.

[Deleted]

It’s a system that gives them leeway to preserve fresh matchups as much as they can. Quality of wins means beating someone who had “quality.” Well who are they beating to have “quality?” Cassidy vs PAC becomes a big deal because they #1 & #2. Cage beating Page was huge cause an unranked wrestler pinned one who was #1. If it means they all beat a bunch of job is leading up to it, so be it. Better than just having a guy pop out and say “I’m challenging now.

[Deleted]

I don't even watch Dark and Elevation but this would be bullshit.

It's like saying UFC wins and losses shouldn't count if they were preliminary bouts instead of on the main card.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Because then you're watching Main Event.

Then it's just jobber squashes for no reason. Why watch any of it?

[Mozenrath]

I would utterly hate this. Besides, they've already had Scorpio, Kaz, and Shawn Spears all complain at points about being stuck on Dark in the past despite racking up wins, so it isn't like Dynamite appearances aren't coveted plenty as it is, and they've also said in the past that the caliber of your wins are also weighted with the rankings.

[Mochi Lone Wolf]

They absolutely should count. Otherwise, what's the point?


You can't say wins and losses matter on one of your shows, but not on the others. That's just insulting.

[pippen94]

The whole point of dark was to pad records - of course Elevation matches should count

[eJm]

If you're asking if more clips of matches from Dark and Elevation should end up on Dynamite? Absolutely. Can't agree with that any more than you do.

If you're asking if those should count, as others have said, you just turn the show into a Main Event or an XPlosion or anything else that's likely a good watch but doesn't matter to anything else you watch for the company itself.

With Dark and especially Elevation, a lot of people watch those, arguably more so than other web based wrestling content, because they're important and they matter and they build people up who could end up being a bigger part of the company going forward. Take that away and you, again, put those shows on the same level as Main Event is now where they tweet that it matters but the only response to it is "Sure, Jan".

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Why would they make it harder for themselves to build talent back up in keyfabe and return them to contention after losing a title match?

These matches may not be as competitive as main show matches, but they're entertaining and that's what matters.

[Macho Pichu]

The rankings system is a work and it has to be to make it function properly. Go on a jobber win streak on Dark, earn yourself a match with a bigger name. Beat a few larger names, find yourself in the top 5. From there, it's either climb to #1, get pushed out by someone else, or challenge for a title.

[toodarkmark]

May 6, 2021 11:17:54 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

In terms of wins and losses, they do for AEW's wrestlers, but I keep thinking how damn easy it is for someone to wrestle on Dark for weeks, beat up jobbers (whether they are local guys, developmental, or AEW's jobbers like Luther, Serpentico, or Fuego del Sol), and suddenly, they're high in the rankings which would justify them, in kayfabe, for a title opportunity.

This is more of an argument about the quality of wins versus the quantity of wins, is what I'm saying.  Of course, that would also have to justify getting people who wrestle regularly on Dark onto Dynamite and see if they don't suck (see: Bear Country) to ensure you are making the right investment in giving them TV time, as well as a willingness to have them get wins over established names, and I am beginning to see why AEW prefers the model of using quantity over quality in creating new contenders out of nowhere for one-off matches.

In the NCAA a quality win helps you get into the tournament, but Villanova beating Hartford is a win just like if they had beaten Virginia.

Also, alot of people enjoy Dark and Elevation. Normalize thinking that all wrestlers are worth something, and not just some people that are pushed. Alot of great matches on happen on both shows, and jeez, what an insult to this large group of indie people trying to make a name for themselves.

[Deleted]

May 7, 2021 8:34:51 GMT -5 toodarkmark said:

May 6, 2021 11:17:54 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

In terms of wins and losses, they do for AEW's wrestlers, but I keep thinking how damn easy it is for someone to wrestle on Dark for weeks, beat up jobbers (whether they are local guys, developmental, or AEW's jobbers like Luther, Serpentico, or Fuego del Sol), and suddenly, they're high in the rankings which would justify them, in kayfabe, for a title opportunity.

This is more of an argument about the quality of wins versus the quantity of wins, is what I'm saying.  Of course, that would also have to justify getting people who wrestle regularly on Dark onto Dynamite and see if they don't suck (see: Bear Country) to ensure you are making the right investment in giving them TV time, as well as a willingness to have them get wins over established names, and I am beginning to see why AEW prefers the model of using quantity over quality in creating new contenders out of nowhere for one-off matches.

In the NCAA a quality win helps you get into the tournament, but Villanova beating Hartford is a win just like if they had beaten Virginia.

Also, alot of people enjoy Dark and Elevation. Normalize thinking that all wrestlers are worth something, and not just some people that are pushed. Alot of great matches on happen on both shows, and jeez, what an insult to this large group of indie people trying to make a name for themselves.

I'm not trying to insult the people who appear on Dark, I'm just looking at how AEW utilizes their means of (usually) assigning title opportunities.

[Deleted]

May 7, 2021 8:34:51 GMT -5 toodarkmark said:

May 6, 2021 11:17:54 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

In terms of wins and losses, they do for AEW's wrestlers, but I keep thinking how damn easy it is for someone to wrestle on Dark for weeks, beat up jobbers (whether they are local guys, developmental, or AEW's jobbers like Luther, Serpentico, or Fuego del Sol), and suddenly, they're high in the rankings which would justify them, in kayfabe, for a title opportunity.

This is more of an argument about the quality of wins versus the quantity of wins, is what I'm saying.  Of course, that would also have to justify getting people who wrestle regularly on Dark onto Dynamite and see if they don't suck (see: Bear Country) to ensure you are making the right investment in giving them TV time, as well as a willingness to have them get wins over established names, and I am beginning to see why AEW prefers the model of using quantity over quality in creating new contenders out of nowhere for one-off matches.

In the NCAA a quality win helps you get into the tournament, but Villanova beating Hartford is a win just like if they had beaten Virginia.

Also, alot of people enjoy Dark and Elevation. Normalize thinking that all wrestlers are worth something, and not just some people that are pushed. Alot of great matches on happen on both shows, and jeez, what an insult to this large group of indie people trying to make a name for themselves.

Yeah, my thought is that AEW should do a weekly YouTube show with someone like Marvez or Excalibur in a Joe Lunardi type role, where they analyze what the rankings are, and why they are what they are each week.

In the NCAA Villanova beating UVA is a win the same as beating Hartford or Lehigh, but UVA is a "quad-1" win, while Lehigh and Hartford are "quad-4." In AEW, beating PAC should be a "quad-1" win, while beating Ryzin should be a "quad-4." In the NCAA, if Duke is 10-5 and Xavier is 15-0, but Duke has way more "quality" wins, Duke will still be ranked higher. That's how I think AEW could add "legitimacy" to the ranking system.

Suppose Powerhouse Hobbs is 11-0, but his wins are all against Vary Morales, D3, Ryzin, and VSK, so he's ranked behind Orange Cassidy, who has losses, but has beaten guys like PAC, let's say.

[RKTaker]

with AEW having as big of a roster that they have not everybody can have matches on Dynamite for their Wins/losses to count so say Pac has the title match against Omega and loses and that knocks him off the Rankings that means that we have no #5 spot cause everybody else have matches on Dark/Elevation which wouldn't count, sure you could put a new guy on Dynamite but then you're taking somebody like Pac off constantly. Also remember before the Pandemic there weren't the amount of jobbers that there are now so there weren't really easy wins

[eJm]

May 7, 2021 14:33:31 GMT -5 RKTaker said:

Also remember before the Pandemic there weren't the amount of jobbers that there are now so there weren't really easy wins

And likely when they start touring again, contracts are going to be more based on appearances if they’re in their local area than travelling to one place to record shows.

[Cyno]

No, this is a pretty terrible idea.

[RKTaker]

another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose