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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2021 15:22:37 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose Yeah, it would be impossible to have any kind of objective metric of evaluating W/L records, or "win quality" like there is with college basketball, because wrestling is scripted and people don't wrestle the same number of matches in a given period. I just think it would add an air of legitimacy to the whole ranking thing if there was a segment each week breaking down like: Max Castor is #5 this week, he's 11-2, but some of his wins have been against Ryzin and VSK who are still seeking their first win in AEW. Orange Cassidy is #4, he's 10-5, but he's picked up a huge win over Chris Jericho. I don't think there would be any harm in doing that.
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Post by eJm on May 7, 2021 15:25:27 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose Yeah, it would be impossible to have any kind of objective metric of evaluating W/L records, or "win quality" like there is with college basketball, because wrestling is scripted and people don't wrestle the same number of matches in a given period. I just think it would add an air of legitimacy to the whole ranking thing if there was a segment each week breaking down like: Max Castor is #5 this week, he's 11-2, but some of his wins have been against Ryzin and VSK who are still seeking their first win in AEW. Orange Cassidy is #4, he's 10-5, but he's picked up a huge win over Chris Jericho. I don't think there would be any harm in doing that. I can agree with that. I also love the idea for the ranking show that you talked about since that just makes a lot of sense for those who don’t have the time to watch Dark or Elevation.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 7, 2021 16:39:10 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose Acclaimed beat the likes of SCU to get their tag title shot, on Dynamite. Bear Country beat the likes of Hybrid 2 who are an established team before they wrestled Jurassic Express, and Abadon has recently beaten the likes of Ryo Mizunami, and that was on Elevation We can't act like getting quality wins on any of these shows doesn't happen and all these people do is lose when they're on the main show. It's also a matter of their contracts and AEW's overall commitment to them like Bear Country in terms of getting Dynamite wins I suppose. Could AEW call more attention to who these people have beaten? Yeah sure I would welcome that, but the notion that the only wins on DARK are against tomato cans? No, that's not the case at all. Also hasn't Sydal been praised for his Dynamite work? He doesn't have a ton of Dynamite wins but his match vs Kenny, Cage, and Kingston, were all praised for being good matches. But he also has quality wins against the likes of Luther, Serpentico, Sonny Kiss, Christopher Daniels, Five, Lee Johnson, Aaron Solow, Danny Limelight and Joey Janela. AEW could yes, bring that up, but Sydal's no pushover in AEW, he's actually a really good person to get a quality win over at this point.
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RKTaker
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Post by RKTaker on May 7, 2021 18:25:05 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose Acclaimed beat the likes of SCU to get their tag title shot, on Dynamite. Bear Country beat the likes of Hybrid 2 who are an established team before they wrestled Jurassic Express, and Abadon has recently beaten the likes of Ryo Mizunami, and that was on Elevation We can't act like getting quality wins on any of these shows doesn't happen and all these people do is lose when they're on the main show. It's also a matter of their contracts and AEW's overall commitment to them like Bear Country in terms of getting Dynamite wins I suppose. Could AEW call more attention to who these people have beaten? Yeah sure I would welcome that, but the notion that the only wins on DARK are against tomato cans? No, that's not the case at all. Also hasn't Sydal been praised for his Dynamite work? He doesn't have a ton of Dynamite wins but his match vs Kenny, Cage, and Kingston, were all praised for being good matches. But he also has quality wins against the likes of Luther, Serpentico, Sonny Kiss, Christopher Daniels, Five, Lee Johnson, Aaron Solow, Danny Limelight and Joey Janela. AEW could yes, bring that up, but Sydal's no pushover in AEW, he's actually a really good person to get a quality win over at this point. when was the last time TH2 won a significant match? they're just as much jobbers as the wrestlers without contracts let's not pretend beating TH2 is like beating the Lucha Bros, or beating Ryo is like beating Britt
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 7, 2021 19:01:36 GMT -5
Acclaimed beat the likes of SCU to get their tag title shot, on Dynamite. Bear Country beat the likes of Hybrid 2 who are an established team before they wrestled Jurassic Express, and Abadon has recently beaten the likes of Ryo Mizunami, and that was on Elevation We can't act like getting quality wins on any of these shows doesn't happen and all these people do is lose when they're on the main show. It's also a matter of their contracts and AEW's overall commitment to them like Bear Country in terms of getting Dynamite wins I suppose. Could AEW call more attention to who these people have beaten? Yeah sure I would welcome that, but the notion that the only wins on DARK are against tomato cans? No, that's not the case at all. Also hasn't Sydal been praised for his Dynamite work? He doesn't have a ton of Dynamite wins but his match vs Kenny, Cage, and Kingston, were all praised for being good matches. But he also has quality wins against the likes of Luther, Serpentico, Sonny Kiss, Christopher Daniels, Five, Lee Johnson, Aaron Solow, Danny Limelight and Joey Janela. AEW could yes, bring that up, but Sydal's no pushover in AEW, he's actually a really good person to get a quality win over at this point. when was the last time TH2 won a significant match? they're just as much jobbers as the wrestlers without contracts let's not pretend beating TH2 is like beating the Lucha Bros, or beating Ryo is like beating Britt Ryo literally only lost to Shida, and beat the likes of Aja Kong and Nyla Rose. Nyla beat Britt in the tourney, so like, she's decently legit I'd say since she won that whole damn tournament. TH2 fluctuate but they've beaten some decent teams in their tenure including SCU and Janela and Kiss.
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Post by The Ichi on May 7, 2021 19:50:17 GMT -5
The answer is to have less squash matches, I guess. Though they're doing a good job of that with matches like Abadon/Mizunami which I felt could have gone either way.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on May 7, 2021 20:56:28 GMT -5
I think it's done a fantastic job of showing who's a real contender in AEW.
I'm even a fan of some of the dudes with miserable W-L records because I've seen those dudes at local Indies, and this has definitely raised their profile for appearances in the future.
I was really skeptical of the system when it started, but a year on I think they've earned some trust.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 7, 2021 21:01:10 GMT -5
The answer is to have less squash matches, I guess. Though they're doing a good job of that with matches like Abadon/Mizunami which I felt could have gone either way. There's gonna be when they tour again. DARK being like this is temporary. Elevation looks like it will become the main enhancement sorta show for the foreseeable future, within the next few months if all goes well Elevation I assume remains at Daily's as a main hud with fans and such, or finds another arena similar to THE MOTHERSHIP for WCW Saturday Night
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on May 7, 2021 21:04:00 GMT -5
In terms of wins and losses, they do for AEW's wrestlers, but I keep thinking how damn easy it is for someone to wrestle on Dark for weeks, beat up jobbers (whether they are local guys, developmental, or AEW's jobbers like Luther, Serpentico, or Fuego del Sol), and suddenly, they're high in the rankings which would justify them, in kayfabe, for a title opportunity. This is more of an argument about the quality of wins versus the quantity of wins, is what I'm saying. Of course, that would also have to justify getting people who wrestle regularly on Dark onto Dynamite and see if they don't suck (see: Bear Country) to ensure you are making the right investment in giving them TV time, as well as a willingness to have them get wins over established names, and I am beginning to see why AEW prefers the model of using quantity over quality in creating new contenders out of nowhere for one-off matches. Okay but quality of wins do count in the rating system, sure people have snuck into the top 5 but the key thing is that you can't go any higher without beating some rated higher than you.
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on May 7, 2021 21:37:41 GMT -5
If I cared enough about making it more like a sport, I would make Dark match wins worth like a half a point, and Dynamite wins worth 2 points or something, then have overall points be more important than record.
But that's probably too complex to make it worthwhile too.
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Post by toodarkmark on May 7, 2021 21:43:31 GMT -5
I do like that a plot device that is a complete work gets people talking. Maybe that's also a point. It's a layer. Some people hate it, some people like it, and it causes a reaction to something that is probably just TK and the EVPs writing down what would be best for the stories they want to tell.
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Post by schiavonecuckscole on May 8, 2021 12:19:50 GMT -5
In terms of wins and losses, they do for AEW's wrestlers, but I keep thinking how damn easy it is for someone to wrestle on Dark for weeks, beat up jobbers (whether they are local guys, developmental, or AEW's jobbers like Luther, Serpentico, or Fuego del Sol), and suddenly, they're high in the rankings which would justify them, in kayfabe, for a title opportunity. This is more of an argument about the quality of wins versus the quantity of wins, is what I'm saying. Of course, that would also have to justify getting people who wrestle regularly on Dark onto Dynamite and see if they don't suck (see: Bear Country) to ensure you are making the right investment in giving them TV time, as well as a willingness to have them get wins over established names, and I am beginning to see why AEW prefers the model of using quantity over quality in creating new contenders out of nowhere for one-off matches. This is old school wrestling at its best. Have new guys establish themselves by piling on wins vs jobbers. I have no problem with it. In fact it should be done more. You can get your champs even More Over in that you can feed them guys that have huge w-l records that you will never put a belt on & then feed them to your champs to make them more impressive.
Imagine taking a guy just coming in thats a good hand but now main event material. Build him up on dark & elevation to say 20-0. Then feed him to an Omega before a big show & have Omega squash him. WOW the champ just squashed a 20-0 guy!
You also could do that with a Heel #1 contender that you are not giving the belt to. Have the #1 heel squash the 20-0 guy to make it seem like the champ has no hope. Think of this example with Archer as the #1 Contender & a Hangman Page as the champ.
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Post by Muskrat on May 8, 2021 12:30:25 GMT -5
I’m sitting here listening to Lance Storm and Bryan Alvarez ranting and raving about how Dark and Elevation are bullshit and shouldn’t count. It’s an asininely flawed argument, it happened on the show I choose to not watch therefore it shouldn’t count. Alvarez even explicitly said he refuses to give credit to the “internet show” like YouTube in 2021 is some foreign f***ing concept to the majority of the audience. They’re bitching about not seeing Brit Baker’s wins, when AEW could not have been more obvious in using her as an attraction for Elevation. She went on Dynamite every week and cut promos that were essentially holding up a neon sign that’s flashing “WATCH AEW ELEVATION 7pm MONDAY ON YOUTUBE!!!!!”. Important shit happens on the other shows because they’re trying to bring viewers to the other f***ing shows.
I never watch NJPW Road to…. Shows, I guess that makes it NJPW fault if I miss an angle on the show I willingly chose not to watch despite knowing it could have storyline implications for the shows I do watch. What an illogical argument that is.
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Post by toodarkmark on May 8, 2021 16:07:37 GMT -5
I’m sitting here listening to Lance Storm and Bryan Alvarez ranting and raving about how Dark and Elevation are bullshit and shouldn’t count. It’s an asininely flawed argument, it happened on the show I choose to not watch therefore it shouldn’t count. Alvarez even explicitly said he refuses to give credit to the “internet show” like YouTube in 2021 is some foreign f***ing concept to the majority of the audience. They’re bitching about not seeing Brit Baker’s wins, when AEW could not have been more obvious in using her as an attraction for Elevation. She went on Dynamite every week and cut promos that were essentially holding up a neon sign that’s flashing “WATCH AEW ELEVATION 7pm MONDAY ON YOUTUBE!!!!!”. Important shit happens on the other shows because they’re trying to bring viewers to the other f***ing shows. I never watch NJPW Road to…. Shows, I guess that makes it NJPW fault if I miss an angle on the show I willingly chose not to watch despite knowing it could have storyline implications for the shows I do watch. What an illogical argument that is. Lance Storm has a weird issue with Britt Baker. Like everytime I hear about him with AEW negatives, it's about something Baker promo related. Alvarez gets hammered all the time for being pro AEW, so this is a safe attack he can do to go "hey I can dislike them too." I think it's bs. They should just pretend Elevation or Dark are NWA Powerr or MLW, and treat them the same. Like, should people pretend Alvarez doesn't exist because his show is not on the radio but only on the internet?
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Post by Cyno on May 8, 2021 16:20:01 GMT -5
One of the most famous win-loss records in all wrestling was Goldberg's winning streak in WCW. Like him or not, there was a ton of hype around him being this unstoppable force that never lost. The streak was snapped at 173-0 when he lost the WCW Championship to Kevin Nash and Scott Hall's taser.
Now, a lot of those wins were squashes against jobbers and JTTS or just lower card talent in general. Very few of those wins were against so-called quality opponents. Hell, it's all-but-proven that WCW padded his winning streak with wins to matches that never existed to make it the streak more impressive than it really was in reality. Did any of that matter to wrestling fans? No, not really. And if it did, they were a small, relatively quiet minority at the time. A win's a win, whether it was on a PPV, Nitro, Thunder, Saturday Night, or Worldwide. Or even outright made up.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 8, 2021 18:02:12 GMT -5
The issue right now is you basically can do 5-6 matches on Dynamite per week. With three divisions going on plus the fact that some matches might be more feud based than anything related to the rankings (think Arcade Anarchy), there's only going to be so much top talent/top talent matches. Plus as a wrestling booker both in reality and in kayfabe, you shouldn't front load your cards every week with top guy/top guy matches. Given that, Dark is sort of a necessity right now to both give top guys records that look impressive and also to have some of those top matches you aren't having on Dynamite. Plus if you look at guys and just their record against signed talent, not that much changes. Like PAC and Orange Cassidy are both undefeated this year and have faced at least one reputable talent. Every other top guy has a loss this year. And they're also both presented as big deals. I'd like for PAC to have wrestled more but his injury got in the way of that. But it doesn't insult my intelligence really. Even with the Britt situation, she's like the only top contender who hasn't gotten a title shot since Shida won the belt. She should probably get one anyway so her getting wins on Dark just adds to that justification.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on May 8, 2021 19:16:35 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose The Acclaimed had a Dynamite match where they won over SCU ahead of their match with the Bucks. Bear Country wasn't coming up to have a credible push match, but to do the Kong vs. Godzilla thing and then vanish for a month. They're a lower tier team who got that push to put Jurassic Express over, because they're a mid-tier team getting those credible wins. In that regard I don't see how the system isn't working perfectly. There's clear divisions and delineations in the roster; some acts only get enhancement wins, some acts get wins over enhancement talents but then also against other wrestlers with winning records. Take Brian Cage, who picks up regular enhancement wins but then also beats the regularly-winning Joey Janela and Sonny Kiss in a tag match, then goes up to Dynamite and beats Hangman. Cage got his wins over no-hope losers, sometimes with outright squashes. Then he beat some other guys with winning records, then he got a pretty sizable win. There's a whole ecosystem going on. Or the four-way tag match this week; three of the teams were on Dark getting wins, and SCU is the one who got their big win over those acts on their way to the Bucks. That's a quality win and it came from using other teams with winning records to do it. I think more accurately, AEW is working on keeping their featured players credible, and has them beat each other in strategic places, rather than just having that be the default.
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Post by toodarkmark on May 8, 2021 23:00:02 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose The Acclaimed had a Dynamite match where they won over SCU ahead of their match with the Bucks. Bear Country wasn't coming up to have a credible push match, but to do the Kong vs. Godzilla thing and then vanish for a month. They're a lower tier team who got that push to put Jurassic Express over, because they're a mid-tier team getting those credible wins. In that regard I don't see how the system isn't working perfectly. There's clear divisions and delineations in the roster; some acts only get enhancement wins, some acts get wins over enhancement talents but then also against other wrestlers with winning records. Take Brian Cage, who picks up regular enhancement wins but then also beats the regularly-winning Joey Janela and Sonny Kiss in a tag match, then goes up to Dynamite and beats Hangman. Cage got his wins over no-hope losers, sometimes with outright squashes. Then he beat some other guys with winning records, then he got a pretty sizable win. There's a whole ecosystem going on. Or the four-way tag match this week; three of the teams were on Dark getting wins, and SCU is the one who got their big win over those acts on their way to the Bucks. That's a quality win and it came from using other teams with winning records to do it. I think more accurately, AEW is working on keeping their featured players credible, and has them beat each other in strategic places, rather than just having that be the default. Frankly Mr. This Charming, I like it when rational explainers of the world unite.
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Post by Glitch on May 8, 2021 23:45:21 GMT -5
They should, since it's used pretty well.
If wwe used the ranking system, they'd have Brock fight four jobbers at once. And then pin them all at once. For four points each.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2021 23:52:32 GMT -5
The reason you're citing as a bad thing is why it's a good thing. It's an incredibly useful, easy booking tool
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