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Post by eJm on May 2, 2022 18:13:07 GMT -5
If they’ve already expressed to you that they’re leaving, yeah, you can use them in matches to put people over, but you really don’t want to do anything with them story or character-wise. I mean, isn’t that why they have shows like Main Event or Level Up? To have them wrestle without doing much on the actually important televised product. These are the deals they agreed to at the end of the day. If they couldn’t agree to keep with the 2-3 year deals they usually sign these people for, don’t sign them to 2-3 year deals unless they do something particularly fire worthy. We know that’s not how WWE “works” but for as much as we go “Oh, these people know the environment, why did they renew?” they also aren’t the people that made the idea for the commitment in the first place. Sure, so the deals should be made with that in mind instead of promising them the world for the length set and cutting them when they likely have not much time left anyway. It doesn’t work in any other workplace and the reason WWE gets away with it is because of classification that they aren’t the only ones who abuse it (truck drivers are independent contractors in pretty much the same way wrestlers are, as an example).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2022 18:24:26 GMT -5
Roddy signed a new contract in 2021. He better hope they let him go off the strength. Really makes me wonder what assurances he got to sign at the time, and what he's seen since to change his mind. Who knows but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he'd want less dates to spend with his family. He did that small NXT UK stint over there for one and given they wanted him to move up to the main roster, and all that entails, yeah it's rougher on his family time.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,097
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Post by Mecca on May 2, 2022 19:01:20 GMT -5
Roddy signed a new contract in 2021. He better hope they let him go off the strength. Pretty sure he signed that because he wanted to help his wife, she was supposed to get Ivy Niles spot.
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Post by Raw is Doodie101 on May 2, 2022 19:29:55 GMT -5
If they’ve already expressed to you that they’re leaving, yeah, you can use them in matches to put people over, but you really don’t want to do anything with them story or character-wise. I mean, isn’t that why they have shows like Main Event or Level Up? To have them wrestle without doing much on the actually important televised product. These are the deals they agreed to at the end of the day. If they couldn’t agree to keep with the 2-3 year deals they usually sign these people for, don’t sign them to 2-3 year deals unless they do something particularly fire worthy. We know that’s not how WWE “works” but for as much as we go “Oh, these people know the environment, why did they renew?” they also aren’t the people that made the idea for the commitment in the first place. Sure, so the deals should be made with that in mind instead of promising them the world for the length set and cutting them when they likely have not much time left anyway. It doesn’t work in any other workplace and the reason WWE gets away with it is because of classification that they aren’t the only ones who abuse it (truck drivers are independent contractors in pretty much the same way wrestlers are, as an example). This actually does happen all the time with contracts that are not guaranteed. For instance, the NFL regularly cuts veterans when they have cheaper talent or people they want to push for spots. They're paid the guarantees but not the full contracts. WWE does the same thing where they'll out someone's full downside guarantee but not pay them their full-length contract. That's just business, especially in sports. It also happens in Entertainment. A lot of the CNN+ stars are still getting their guaranteed money even though the streamer is ending but not getting optional years in their contracts. It sucks but WWE isn't doing anything that's special or different. The length of contracts doesn't mean shit. The only thing that matters is how much are you guaranteed to get.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on May 2, 2022 19:50:54 GMT -5
If they’ve already expressed to you that they’re leaving, yeah, you can use them in matches to put people over, but you really don’t want to do anything with them story or character-wise. I mean, isn’t that why they have shows like Main Event or Level Up? To have them wrestle without doing much on the actually important televised product. These are the deals they agreed to at the end of the day. If they couldn’t agree to keep with the 2-3 year deals they usually sign these people for, don’t sign them to 2-3 year deals unless they do something particularly fire worthy. We know that’s not how WWE “works” but for as much as we go “Oh, these people know the environment, why did they renew?” they also aren’t the people that made the idea for the commitment in the first place. Sure, so the deals should be made with that in mind instead of promising them the world for the length set and cutting them when they likely have not much time left anyway. It doesn’t work in any other workplace and the reason WWE gets away with it is because of classification that they aren’t the only ones who abuse it (truck drivers are independent contractors in pretty much the same way wrestlers are, as an example). Something that I need to add here in the case of Bivens for sure, and I think applies to other names on the recent list of releases (Lumis is rumored to be another, but I don't have anything to cite). How much time is left on the contract is a factor here as well. If someone has only four months on their deal, they may decide to cut that contract if they know they aren't staying. Especially if there's an edict from up top that basically says, cut X amount of names. You'll upset way less people if you submit a name that's a few months out the door as opposed to someone who really wants to stay and has a year left on their deal. And let's face it, they aren't cutting Roderick Strong anyway. They know they f***ed up when they released Bobby Fish when Cole and O'Reilly were up that same calendar year. AEW isn't getting the full UE just yet.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 2, 2022 20:29:15 GMT -5
Alvarez has been saying for awhile that he wouldn't be shocked if WWE decided to go back to hiring indy wrestlers again soon just because of how many of the rookies they have aren't catching on like they had hoped. And ones that are like D'Angelo and Breakker had training before going to WWE
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Post by Raw is Doodie101 on May 2, 2022 20:32:30 GMT -5
Alvarez has been saying for awhile that he wouldn't be shocked if WWE decided to go back to hiring indy wrestlers again soon just because of how many of the rookies they have aren't catching on like they had hoped. And ones that are like D'Angelo and Breakker had training before going to WWE They never said that they wouldn't sign indy workers. Just that they wouldn't hoard them. They just sign Roc-C who comes from the indies. They just want young indy talent.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2022 21:17:56 GMT -5
Alvarez has been saying for awhile that he wouldn't be shocked if WWE decided to go back to hiring indy wrestlers again soon just because of how many of the rookies they have aren't catching on like they had hoped. And ones that are like D'Angelo and Breakker had training before going to WWE Like I said this was always going to backfire on them...but why would any Indy wrestler worth anything even give it a go ...atleast while Vince is still around because like pointed out you can literally make more money than WWE is gonna offer you from not just the indys but with ladies doing things like OnlyFans to twitch and cameo etc. And they get to keep their creative freedom. But WWE is running out of vetearn hands and green talent wrestling green talent on TV is just gonna keep producing Nikkita Vs Lash matches so wont be the least bit shocked they atleast internally and start trying to bring back people they fired that are still out there....question is would any of them want to.
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Post by oxbaker on May 2, 2022 21:22:46 GMT -5
If they’ve already expressed to you that they’re leaving, yeah, you can use them in matches to put people over, but you really don’t want to do anything with them story or character-wise. I mean, isn’t that why they have shows like Main Event or Level Up? To have them wrestle without doing much on the actually important televised product. These are the deals they agreed to at the end of the day. If they couldn’t agree to keep with the 2-3 year deals they usually sign these people for, don’t sign them to 2-3 year deals unless they do something particularly fire worthy. We know that’s not how WWE “works” but for as much as we go “Oh, these people know the environment, why did they renew?” they also aren’t the people that made the idea for the commitment in the first place. Sure, so the deals should be made with that in mind instead of promising them the world for the length set and cutting them when they likely have not much time left anyway. It doesn’t work in any other workplace and the reason WWE gets away with it is because of classification that they aren’t the only ones who abuse it (truck drivers are independent contractors in pretty much the same way wrestlers are, as an example). Perhaps they don’t want to pay them what they’re paying them to only use them on Main Event or Level Up, or just don’t see any use for them at this point. Whatever deals WWE signs, they must contain language that the signee agrees to that they can be cut before end of term. It’s not written invisible ink. The wrestler can choose not to sign the contract if he or she doesn’t like the terms. If you’ve got leverage, you use it to get the conditions you want in the contract. If you don’t you work to get that bargaining position. And no this isn’t nearly the only place in the workscape that people can be cut at any time. In the NFL there are practice squad players signed and released week to week. Minor league baseball players can be cut. So can G-league basketball players. Some pro athletes have guaranteed money, some do not. In fact, these ‘tryout’ people who WWE is recruiting from the world of athletics understand this far better than the people on wrestling forums. Yesterday, hundreds of players signed with the NFL as undrafted free agents — they aren’t being duped if the team says ‘we see potential in you, ball out and you could end up on the roster making big money’ when they know that only a few of them will make it. If some football player signs one of these deals with WWE, they know they’re trying to make the team. They know they can be cut. It’s reality, just as if they try to make the NBA or NFL or to an MLB team.
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Post by oxbaker on May 2, 2022 21:27:09 GMT -5
Alvarez has been saying for awhile that he wouldn't be shocked if WWE decided to go back to hiring indy wrestlers again soon just because of how many of the rookies they have aren't catching on like they had hoped. And ones that are like D'Angelo and Breakker had training before going to WWE Like I said this was always going to backfire on them...but why would any Indy wrestler worth anything even give it a go ...atleast while Vince is still around because like pointed out you can literally make more money than WWE is gonna offer you from not just the indys but with ladies doing things like OnlyFans to twitch and cameo etc. And they get to keep their creative freedom. But WWE is running out of vetearn hands and green talent wrestling green talent on TV is just gonna keep producing Nikkita Vs Lash matches so wont be the least bit shocked they atleast internally and start trying to bring back people they fired that are still out there....question is would any of them want to. Why? Because the WWE pays a lot more and if they really make it, it pays exponentially more — the kind of huge bucks that most aspiring wrestlers hope to make. Worst case, you sign with WWE and it doesn’t work out and you go back to the indies … and probably get to charge more if you’ve had some TV exposure.
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Post by eJm on May 3, 2022 3:40:54 GMT -5
I’m leaving this topic for now because I really can’t be bothered but all I’ll say is that it’s depressing how little some people actually care about the rights of workers in WWE and how little negotiating power they actually have even with stuff going their way.
And with that, I’m out.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
Posts: 1,668
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Post by thehottag on May 3, 2022 4:13:58 GMT -5
It’s not written invisible ink. The wrestler can choose not to sign the contract if he or she doesn’t like the terms. Ah, argumentum ergo decedo, that old chestnut.
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knsffa
Team Rocket
Missed This Place and People
Posts: 796
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Post by knsffa on May 3, 2022 4:25:50 GMT -5
I’m leaving this topic for now because I really can’t be bothered but all I’ll say is that it’s depressing how little some people actually care about the rights of workers in WWE and how little negotiating power they actually have even with stuff going their way. And with that, I’m out. My feeling is as long as the talent want to be there -- regardless of if they want to sign a new deal -- they should not be released because they don't want to sign a new deal. I hope I've not said anything to suggest otherwise. As far as we know so far NONE of the released persons wanted out of their current deals. I wish best for everyone still there and hope someday the culture changes because as long as the culture remains the same this type of stuff will continue, driving people away and hurting those still there.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 3, 2022 5:55:26 GMT -5
Like I said this was always going to backfire on them...but why would any Indy wrestler worth anything even give it a go ...atleast while Vince is still around because like pointed out you can literally make more money than WWE is gonna offer you from not just the indys but with ladies doing things like OnlyFans to twitch and cameo etc. And they get to keep their creative freedom. But WWE is running out of vetearn hands and green talent wrestling green talent on TV is just gonna keep producing Nikkita Vs Lash matches so wont be the least bit shocked they atleast internally and start trying to bring back people they fired that are still out there....question is would any of them want to. Why? Because the WWE pays a lot more and if they really make it, it pays exponentially more — the kind of huge bucks that most aspiring wrestlers hope to make. Worst case, you sign with WWE and it doesn’t work out and you go back to the indies … and probably get to charge more if you’ve had some TV exposure. There will always be people who will be willing and ready to give WWE a shot. But don't underestimate the allure of creative freedom and international bookings being away from WWE may have for a lot of indy workers. Now that being said it was mentioned by someone else that when WWE does decide to look at indy wrestlers they may be able to negotiate more money and spots on the main show now just due to how thin the roster is getting stretched and just how young and inexperienced most of NXT is. Just look at a guy like EJ Nduwka who was a PC prospect and is now a top guy in MLW. If WWE comes calling, he likely isn't accepting a developmental deal
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Post by Raw is Doodie101 on May 3, 2022 7:01:45 GMT -5
I care about workers' rights & also understand that what WWE is doing is just normal business practices in sports & entertainment.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 3, 2022 7:53:00 GMT -5
If they’ve already expressed to you that they’re leaving, yeah, you can use them in matches to put people over, but you really don’t want to do anything with them story or character-wise. I mean, isn’t that why they have shows like Main Event or Level Up? To have them wrestle without doing much on the actually important televised product. These are the deals they agreed to at the end of the day. If they couldn’t agree to keep with the 2-3 year deals they usually sign these people for, don’t sign them to 2-3 year deals unless they do something particularly fire worthy. We know that’s not how WWE “works” but for as much as we go “Oh, these people know the environment, why did they renew?” they also aren’t the people that made the idea for the commitment in the first place. Sure, so the deals should be made with that in mind instead of promising them the world for the length set and cutting them when they likely have not much time left anyway. It doesn’t work in any other workplace and the reason WWE gets away with it is because of classification that they aren’t the only ones who abuse it (truck drivers are independent contractors in pretty much the same way wrestlers are, as an example). Being cut at any time is pretty much how it works in most fields, and the WWE contracts reflect that they can release you with a certain amount of notice. Your typical worker in the US works without a contract at all and can be terminated at any time (though they have the benefit of also being able to quit at any time, if they have no contract). Corporate types that do get contracts typically have language in there about when they can be cut and when they can leave (usually with a notice period, similar to what WWE has). It’s common that there will be a provision that where the person quits before the end of the contract, they have a more stringent non-compete clause in there than they would if the contract just expired. In the sports realm, it depends on the sport as MLB deals are typically fully guaranteed, whereas NFL deals can usually be cut at any time, as long as you pay out whatever money is guaranteed in the deal.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,725
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Post by nisidhe on May 3, 2022 10:04:51 GMT -5
Why? Because the WWE pays a lot more and if they really make it, it pays exponentially more — the kind of huge bucks that most aspiring wrestlers hope to make. Worst case, you sign with WWE and it doesn’t work out and you go back to the indies … and probably get to charge more if you’ve had some TV exposure. That's...not exactly true about WWE pay. Many a tale has been told of PC talent getting paid less than they'd make at any other entry-level job. And the last ten to fifteen years has made it quite clear that it is possible for talents to make more on the indies than in WWE. Hence, the effort by WWE to grab those talents by having to shell out far more. The Cameo/OnlyFans/Twitch issue arose because it was often the case that talent was making far more from those revenue streams than from their work with WWE. An "independent contractor" should be able to make additional income from non-wrestling content if they so chose, right? WWE saw differently, however, and basically forced its talent to sign over their rights to those projects to WWE in exchange for a smaller bump in WWE pay and/or not getting released and made to sit out their 90 days and/or being sued over their own likeness rights. Once that came out, however, that slammed the door for WWE to access to a very great many outside talents who are and have been making significant sums from their projects as well as their work in wrestling. Moreover, among its own contracted talent are those who will either not re-sign or who will bend WWE over a barrel for more and more control over those revenues knowing that WWE's appeal to the IWC (you know, the younger set) depends on that more mainstream exposure. Again, it's not necessarily unreasonable for WWE to flip-flop on the independent wrestlers question, but it is unreasonable to expect to do so without accepting, or at least understanding, that independent wrestlers aren't going to rush back to WWE just on WWE's say-so. WWE has embarked on a longterm initiative that was intended to separate itself from the pro wrestling industry as a whole. There is little incentive for the industry to protect WWE from WWE's own, potentially-fatal error.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,478
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Post by r. on May 3, 2022 10:19:39 GMT -5
Alvarez has been saying for awhile that he wouldn't be shocked if WWE decided to go back to hiring indy wrestlers again soon just because of how many of the rookies they have aren't catching on like they had hoped. And ones that are like D'Angelo and Breakker had training before going to WWE They never said that they wouldn't sign indy workers. Just that they wouldn't hoard them. They just sign Roc-C who comes from the indies. They just want young indy talent. They wanted talent they could mold from day-1. They know anyone coming in from the indies will have hurdles. 1:They likely have an established name 2:They are already set in wrestling a certain way 3:They know greener pastures exist. You have none of those problems when you grab a kid straight out of college.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,986
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Post by chazraps on May 3, 2022 10:27:51 GMT -5
I care about workers' rights & also understand that what WWE is doing is just normal business practices in sports & entertainment. It's really not when you consider that they're "independent contractors."
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Post by Raw is Doodie101 on May 3, 2022 10:32:07 GMT -5
I care about workers' rights & also understand that what WWE is doing is just normal business practices in sports & entertainment. It's really not when you consider that they're "independent contractors." That's a different argument from guaranteed contracts & releasing someone before a contract ends though. That's normal. Wasn't talking about independent contractor issues.
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