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Post by The Rick Jericho on May 26, 2021 18:05:34 GMT -5
I believe, if everything went to plan, Bret was to take the title to Wrestlemania 14 and drop it to Austin.
After that, where does it go from there?
Bret fires Owen, Anvil and Davey for failing to "protect" his WWF title?
Owen, Anvil and Davey jump Bret Hart the night after Raw, thus turning him into a babyface again?
The stay together, turn face and feud with DX or The Nation? Were there any concreate plans for the Hart Foundation in 1998 that surfaced before Montreal?
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on May 26, 2021 19:59:05 GMT -5
It's an interesting question - one which I'm not sure Vince had a firm answer to prior to Summerslam 1997.
He had a bit of a booking conundrum on his hands, I think. Bret's "heel turn" had gotten a mixed reaction stateside, to the point at which DX was invariably getting heel reactions against the Hart Foundation (and every other faction, in fact), but was growing by that fall into a "too respected to hate" situation. It didn't hurt that the Internet wrestling community, then in its infancy, was discussing a lot of this stuff away from the boards and newsgroups and was colouring the overall fans' perception of how the business worked and why decisions were being made. At the time it seemed ludricrous that Vince would choose Shawn over Bret. It was quite possible that Vince had to weigh the costs and benefits of choosing one or the other, and decided that he could let Bret go for a couple years, sort out who was worth picking up from WCW when Hogan started rearing his giant head in the booking room, then bring them back with him when his contract ran out by the fall of 2000 (so the timeline might have gone.) If he lost Michaels to WCW, he'd lose him forever to that place.
I think Pillman's death scuppered any long-term plans for the Hart Foundation, though. At the time, it only piled on the face cred precisely where Vince _didn't_ want it to go: on DX and, past that, Austin. With the need to start a build for Michaels/Austin for Wrestlemania soon, Vince could not risk keeping around a distracting top figure whose mere presence in WWE was now going to call up questions about why Bret wasn't going to be the main event. How does one destroy a beast that was still profitable and popular, but not meshing with the long-term plans? You cut off the head, and you bury the rest.
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Post by Aceorton on May 26, 2021 22:14:44 GMT -5
I don't think they'd split the family again. Too much "been there, done that" with Bret-Owen, Bret-Davey and even Owen-Davey.
But man, it's HARD to book 1998 with the Harts still around and together without sacrificing a LOT of what actually happened that year.
Assuming Michaels still exits after WM14 and Vince still becomes the top mega-heel against Austin, here's the scenario I envision: - Michaels does something awful to Shamrock in late '97 and is dealing with him through WM14 - Bret begrudgingly shows respect to Austin after losing to him at WM14 and takes some storyline time off - DX vs. Hart Foundation (Owen, Davey and Neidhart) erupts worse than ever after WM14 with Triple H taking over and adding X-Pac and the Outlaws. This brings Bret back from his hiatus, leading to a big eight-man showdown at Over the Edge and Bret vs. HHH at KOTR or even SummerSlam, with Bret vowing to snuff out DX once and for all - DX starts its feud with the (Owen-less) Nation, triggering their transition to being faces - although maybe not as soon as it actually ended up happening - Owen and Bulldog quietly split off to do their own undercard feuds - During the Undertaker-Kane "cahoots" business, Austin gets help from the unlikeliest of allies: Bret - After Rock's eventual WWF title win (with a different finish because now the Screwjob never happened!), Bret gets a solid title program with him (defying McMahon, who wants Bret to see reason and just be a good company man) - Big Show arrives, and we get a Bret vs. Big Show feud - Owen not killed - Bret is definitely NOT on board with the whole Corporation/Corporate Ministry business and finally feuds with McMahon himself (match and all) - Jericho arrives and shits all over Bret as a "phony" Canadian hero, and we get several months of gold there as Bret properly elevates Jericho
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻 on May 27, 2021 0:58:44 GMT -5
Probably peters out when Anvil gets fired. Davey is probably released shortly after. Bret and Owen maybe form a tag team for a bit with a possible split there and a feud Bret insists on to get Owen top pay. After that, who knows?
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Post by The Thread Barbi on May 27, 2021 1:23:08 GMT -5
Said it before - Bret Hart - Mr. McMahon's chosen corporate champion and thorn in Austin's side
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Post by celtics543 on May 27, 2021 10:19:28 GMT -5
I actually think Bret fits in pretty well to 1998 and 1999. It's the rest of the Hart Foundation that I don't think fits very well. I could easily see Bret keeping the title until Wrestlemania and dropping it to Austin. Shawn never gets hurt because he's not in the casket match at Royal Rumble so he's still around through 1998 and 1999 as well. It's interesting but the butterfly effect of Bret leaving is that Shawn's career was almost ended as well.
This timeline may be much worse than the real timeline of how things happened, at least for WWE. Shawn and Hunter are still wielding big political power, Bret and the foundation are still at odds with Shawn and DX, and Austin is caught in between. As it actually went, Bret was gone, Shawn was gone, and there was a huge spot open at the top for Austin to step into.
Best case scenario, you have the most stacked roster of all time with guys getting developed and storylines branching off. With Austin, Bret, Shawn, Foley, Undertaker, Kane, HHH, and Rock at the top of the card plus the ascension of the evil Mr. McMahon character you really should have some entertaining tv. The backstage egos might have been the undoing though.
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Post by The Rick Jericho on May 27, 2021 20:07:43 GMT -5
I don't think they'd split the family again. Too much "been there, done that" with Bret-Owen, Bret-Davey and even Owen-Davey. But man, it's HARD to book 1998 with the Harts still around and together without sacrificing a LOT of what actually happened that year. Assuming Michaels still exits after WM14 and Vince still becomes the top mega-heel against Austin, here's the scenario I envision: - Michaels does something awful to Shamrock in late '97 and is dealing with him through WM14 - Bret begrudgingly shows respect to Austin after losing to him at WM14 and takes some storyline time off - DX vs. Hart Foundation (Owen, Davey and Neidhart) erupts worse than ever after WM14 with Triple H taking over and adding X-Pac and the Outlaws. This brings Bret back from his hiatus, leading to a big eight-man showdown at Over the Edge and Bret vs. HHH at KOTR or even SummerSlam, with Bret vowing to snuff out DX once and for all - DX starts its feud with the (Owen-less) Nation, triggering their transition to being faces - although maybe not as soon as it actually ended up happening - Owen and Bulldog quietly split off to do their own undercard feuds - During the Undertaker-Kane "cahoots" business, Austin gets help from the unlikeliest of allies: Bret - After Rock's eventual WWF title win (with a different finish because now the Screwjob never happened!), Bret gets a solid title program with him (defying McMahon, who wants Bret to see reason and just be a good company man) - Big Show arrives, and we get a Bret vs. Big Show feud - Owen not killed - Bret is definitely NOT on board with the whole Corporation/Corporate Ministry business and finally feuds with McMahon himself (match and all) - Jericho arrives and shits all over Bret as a "phony" Canadian hero, and we get several months of gold there as Bret properly elevates Jericho I wish this existed and I wish this was a Wrestling tape.
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Post by DZ: WF Legacy on May 28, 2021 15:08:14 GMT -5
Hart Foundation vs DX 2.0 vs Rock's Nation would've been INCREDIBLE. Hell, they could've had Owen betray the HF and join The Nation that way in a move nobody saw coming.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 28, 2021 15:14:07 GMT -5
I think they all slowly go their separate ways while still having a loose alliance when necessary. Pillman was going down that before he passed anyway and I think the others would have followed suit.
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Post by S-Chrome on May 28, 2021 15:21:29 GMT -5
I don't think they'd split the family again. Too much "been there, done that" with Bret-Owen, Bret-Davey and even Owen-Davey. But man, it's HARD to book 1998 with the Harts still around and together without sacrificing a LOT of what actually happened that year. Assuming Michaels still exits after WM14 and Vince still becomes the top mega-heel against Austin, here's the scenario I envision: - Michaels does something awful to Shamrock in late '97 and is dealing with him through WM14 - Bret begrudgingly shows respect to Austin after losing to him at WM14 and takes some storyline time off - DX vs. Hart Foundation (Owen, Davey and Neidhart) erupts worse than ever after WM14 with Triple H taking over and adding X-Pac and the Outlaws. This brings Bret back from his hiatus, leading to a big eight-man showdown at Over the Edge and Bret vs. HHH at KOTR or even SummerSlam, with Bret vowing to snuff out DX once and for all - DX starts its feud with the (Owen-less) Nation, triggering their transition to being faces - although maybe not as soon as it actually ended up happening - Owen and Bulldog quietly split off to do their own undercard feuds - During the Undertaker-Kane "cahoots" business, Austin gets help from the unlikeliest of allies: Bret - After Rock's eventual WWF title win (with a different finish because now the Screwjob never happened!), Bret gets a solid title program with him (defying McMahon, who wants Bret to see reason and just be a good company man) - Big Show arrives, and we get a Bret vs. Big Show feud - Owen not killed - Bret is definitely NOT on board with the whole Corporation/Corporate Ministry business and finally feuds with McMahon himself (match and all) - Jericho arrives and shits all over Bret as a "phony" Canadian hero, and we get several months of gold there as Bret properly elevates Jericho This is pretty damn good. It's really interesting how Bret's departure turned out doing wonders for the careers of Rock, Foley and HHH. Rock would have broken through regardless, but Foley and Trips are a bit more murky. Michaels probably doesn't get his back broken in that Casket Match if Bret is still around and Michaels still being around would've seriously hindered H's progression.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 18:49:28 GMT -5
Bret would finally lose to Austin if he stayed around.
Austin needed to get that win and Bret would've done the job. 100%.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 19:35:00 GMT -5
If survivor series is a schmoz like it was supposed to be, then "nothing is settled", so if bret loses wm 14 to austin, does that mean bret goes back to fighting shawn endlessly throughout 98 while austin fights maybe rocky or something like they were doing at the end of 97, but now for the world title.
No montreal screwjob, and there would be no corporate vince, unless you can turn the stuff they were doing with austin being hurt and not allowed to wrestle into corporate owner vince off of that. Bret losing to austin at wm, turns into a "now what do you do with him" for bret, fight against austin for the title all year, or go back to fighting shawn all year. Bret and shawn both being out really created a hole that they needed to bring up some new guys, and with them staying, it turns into 1997 part two almost.
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Post by The Rick Jericho on May 28, 2021 19:55:56 GMT -5
Bret would finally lose to Austin if he stayed around. Austin needed to get that win and Bret would've done the job. 100%. And imagine, there was a LEGIT WORK screwjob. Austin wins clean from Bret. Next night on Raw, Bret Hart wrestles his arch-enemy Shawn Michaels in a loser leaves the WWF match forced by Vince McMahon. Screwjob live on Raw. Bret leaves for a few months to a year. I have a feeling, while it may not have happened in Montreal, that screwjob storyline was going to happen to Bret later on eventually either work or shoot down the road.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on May 28, 2021 20:28:02 GMT -5
I really don't know, but it's a good question. I also don't know if Foley, HHH, and Rock ever get to where they got (certainly not as quickly) if Bret and Shawn were still there. It's not like they were going to move Bret and Shawn down the card. And since Bret is there you might still have other stale dead weight like Bulldog and Neidhart taking opportunities from the Nation and DX guys from the real 1998 timeline.
I don't think he meant to, but the Screwjob and Shawn's injury really made Vince rip the bandaid off and plunge into the Attitude Era. It certainly didn't work out great for Bret or Shawn (for a while), but I think the WWF was better off with those guys gone.
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BRV
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Post by BRV on May 28, 2021 21:52:12 GMT -5
The Hart Foundation could’ve still existed well into 1998 as the perfect foils to help turn D-Generation X face. Fans in 1998 were ready to support DX and the Hart Foundation, as this group of do-gooders who looked down on American chauvinism, would have been ideal heels to help them get over.
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Post by lildude8218 on May 28, 2021 22:45:40 GMT -5
Bret as Thanos, Triple H as Tony Stark
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on May 29, 2021 20:04:06 GMT -5
Bret as Thanos, Triple H as Tony Stark Who is Mick Foley?
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on May 29, 2021 22:57:30 GMT -5
I actually think Bret fits in pretty well to 1998 and 1999. It's the rest of the Hart Foundation that I don't think fits very well. I could easily see Bret keeping the title until Wrestlemania and dropping it to Austin. Shawn never gets hurt because he's not in the casket match at Royal Rumble so he's still around through 1998 and 1999 as well. It's interesting but the butterfly effect of Bret leaving is that Shawn's career was almost ended as well. This timeline may be much worse than the real timeline of how things happened, at least for WWE. Shawn and Hunter are still wielding big political power, Bret and the foundation are still at odds with Shawn and DX, and Austin is caught in between. As it actually went, Bret was gone, Shawn was gone, and there was a huge spot open at the top for Austin to step into. Best case scenario, you have the most stacked roster of all time with guys getting developed and storylines branching off. With Austin, Bret, Shawn, Foley, Undertaker, Kane, HHH, and Rock at the top of the card plus the ascension of the evil Mr. McMahon character you really should have some entertaining tv. The backstage egos might have been the undoing though. Yeah, this is actually a really good point. Both Bret and Shawn being forced out of the fold as Austin was on the rise might have been the best thing to happen to both Austin and the WWF. Since the Screwjob doesn't happen in this timeline, it probably means the Rumble isn't main evented by a Shawn vs. Taker casket match, and Michaels is still around. And it's not just Austin that ends up thrusted into the limelight free of political strife, as Triple H also takes over DX from Shawn and his feud with Rock and the Nation eventually catapults both of them into the main event in due time. It's possible the WWF falls into the same trap WCW fell into in 1998, where the old guard is still around taking up spots. Even if Austin ends up taking the title at Mania, he ends up rehashing his rivalries with Bret and Shawn to diminishing returns which prevents the WWF from solidly overtaking WCW in 1998. In our timeline, he has a fresh character in Mr. McMahon as his archrival, and he trades the title with other contemporary rivals like Kane, Rock, Ministry Taker, and Mankind, creating a situation where a rising tide lifts all ships.
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Post by avenger on May 31, 2021 2:18:05 GMT -5
Bret as Thanos, Triple H as Tony Stark Who is Mick Foley? No, Who is Jim Neidhart.
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Post by sungod2020 on Jun 23, 2021 20:08:14 GMT -5
I actually think Bret fits in pretty well to 1998 and 1999. It's the rest of the Hart Foundation that I don't think fits very well. I could easily see Bret keeping the title until Wrestlemania and dropping it to Austin. Shawn never gets hurt because he's not in the casket match at Royal Rumble so he's still around through 1998 and 1999 as well. It's interesting but the butterfly effect of Bret leaving is that Shawn's career was almost ended as well. This timeline may be much worse than the real timeline of how things happened, at least for WWE. Shawn and Hunter are still wielding big political power, Bret and the foundation are still at odds with Shawn and DX, and Austin is caught in between. As it actually went, Bret was gone, Shawn was gone, and there was a huge spot open at the top for Austin to step into. Best case scenario, you have the most stacked roster of all time with guys getting developed and storylines branching off. With Austin, Bret, Shawn, Foley, Undertaker, Kane, HHH, and Rock at the top of the card plus the ascension of the evil Mr. McMahon character you really should have some entertaining tv. The backstage egos might have been the undoing though. It's pretty ironic that as big of an integral role the Hart Foundation had in 1997, it would've been difficult to book them the following year, hell WWF had trouble booking Owen once his brother and the other Hart Foundation members left, what should that tell you? Timing is everything when it comes to finding success and pro wrestling is no different. Bret and The Hart Foundation(except for Owen) left at the right time. I don't even think Davey Boy and Neidhart's characters would fit in the Attitude Era anyway, just look at Davey Boy's 1999 return to see what I mean.
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