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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Aug 1, 2021 11:23:16 GMT -5
Let me be clear first and foremost, I understand the stakes are not nearly as high as they were for WCW in 1997, but the concept is the same. I also have quite a bit of trust for AEW and their ability to book things correctly long term even if in the moment they don't make sense. The surprising directions that they've taken their angles in have almost always worked out in the past.
That being said, I think that there is a clear parallel between this angle and the NWO angle circa 1997. The Elite has been presented as an invincible heel stable who has gotten away with everything for almost a year. We're at a point now where the angle is RED HOT and everybody is chomping at the bit to finally see them lose. But as we all saw on Wednesday, we're getting to a point where it might be working too well. It's to the point with some people where seeing them win gets people mad, like turn off the TV and rage quit mad. They have a clear end point for this story too, and a clear way that it should end.
Much like Sting at Starrcade 1997, Hangman Page winning the belt at All Out is the only correct decision here. People were mad about the 10 man tag match (I wasn't particularly happy myself), and even though many were disproportionately angry in comparison to what had actually happened, it's illustrative that they need to tread very cautiously if they want to avoid a big backlash. A lot of the reason so many of us defended it as much as we did was the fact that this was clearly not the end of the story. Imagine how much angrier (and harder to justify) it would be if Hangman didn't end up leaving with the World Title at All Out?
I think this is going to be an important thing to navigate properly for AEW. Lots of goodwill could be killed off in one night if they don't play their cards right.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 1, 2021 11:29:24 GMT -5
Not even close.
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khali
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Post by khali on Aug 1, 2021 11:32:20 GMT -5
I think it’s a good comparison because this is the biggest long term story AEW has told yet, and it involves the coronation of a homegrown star. If they mess it up, it may make me more jaded about their booking going forward. They’ve totally gotten me to trust their booking directions so far. Fumbling this would cause a big hit to that. And it would be extra disappointing because I expected them to be a place where this stuff doesn’t happen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 11:56:05 GMT -5
Only if Hangman doesn’t actually win the title at the conclusion of the story. We’re all bent out of shape at this point because of speculation and surmise that Hangman won’t be wrestling at All Out, for whatever reason. Which is fair, because this has always felt like the denouement of the story would be All Out 2021 and, now, apparently, there’s a good chance it won’t be.
So, the story doesn’t finish at All Out, that’s going to be extremely disappointing. But if Hangman has his crowning moment at Full Gear, I don’t think there will be any real parallel to Starrcade 97. That story NEVER had a satisfying payoff.
What I will say, though, is if Hangman genuinely isn’t wrestling at All Out, and AEW sacrifices Christian to the wolves as Kenny’s opponent, it’ll be the first time I’ve been genuinely miffed at AEW’s booking and will definitely affect the extent of my fandom, at least in the short term.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 11:56:18 GMT -5
But Sting did leave with the title after Starrcade 97? It just was an over booked mess of a finish that didn't work, and had the NWO still as the most prominent place on the card when they should have lost and begun to disband. I don't think the Elite are anywhere near as dominant as the NWO taking up something like half the WCW roster.
I feel like Page is more comparable to if the Lex Express worked. You have a guy start a storyline with a clear as day finish (win the title from "evil foreigner"/ Page feeling inferior to the Elite), the fans get behind this new top guy (something Lex didn't get nearly enough as Page is), Vince thinks it failing so at Summerslam Lex wins, By count out, not winning the title. Page has all the momentum and should win. While everyone thought that would happen at All Out maybe we are waiting till Full Gear? I think AEW is smart enough for when Page does challenge he wins the title
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Aug 1, 2021 11:59:35 GMT -5
It all depends on when Page wins the title. He can’t lose his first challenge, he HAS to win. It’s probably gonna be at Full Gear. Even if it’s 3 months away instead of 1 month away, it’s still gonna be worth it. BUT he HAS TO WIN.
The only way this becomes a Starrcade 97 thing is if the match is dreadful and the booking is beyond overbooked. And I don’t think that would happen.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 1, 2021 12:02:44 GMT -5
I thought we had established that the Q4 drop last week was largely due to DirecTV cutting out for almost seven minutes? Like Gage vs Jericho saw the second highest viewership as the show ticked back almost all its fans after that. Obviously some people might've rage quit but we have to say what happened to cause that drop and largely it was not Hangman losing.
While I agree Hangman should win the belt at All Out... I'm really not gonna be pressed if they wait till Full Gear. I don't think it'd be Starrcade whatsoever. This is a company that has also earned by trust and Khan is someone who is constantly and actively trying not to make the same mistakes WCW did. So I'm confident he won't.
Hangman is gonna win the title when he challenges for it. And it's gonna be a hell of a moment when it officially happens.
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Post by Dub H on Aug 1, 2021 12:08:41 GMT -5
I thought we had established that the Q4 drop last week was largely due to DirecTV cutting out for almost seven minutes? Like Gage vs Jericho saw the second highest viewership as the show ticked back almost all its fans after that. Obviously some people might've rage quit but we have to say what happened to cause that drop and largely it was not Hangman losing. While I agree Hangman should win the belt at All Out... I'm really not gonna be pressed if they wait till Full Gear. I don't think it'd be Starrcade whatsoever. This is a company that has also earned by trust and Khan is someone who is constantly and actively trying not to make the same mistakes WCW did. So I'm confident he won't. Hangman is gonna win the title when he challenges for it. And it's gonna be a hell of a moment when it officially happens. ーAlvarez said it was 3 thinga that affected,the directtv issues, TNt putting a big amount of commercias at that quarter and hangman losing
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 1, 2021 12:11:34 GMT -5
I thought we had established that the Q4 drop last week was largely due to DirecTV cutting out for almost seven minutes? Like Gage vs Jericho saw the second highest viewership as the show ticked back almost all its fans after that. Obviously some people might've rage quit but we have to say what happened to cause that drop and largely it was not Hangman losing. While I agree Hangman should win the belt at All Out... I'm really not gonna be pressed if they wait till Full Gear. I don't think it'd be Starrcade whatsoever. This is a company that has also earned by trust and Khan is someone who is constantly and actively trying not to make the same mistakes WCW did. So I'm confident he won't. Hangman is gonna win the title when he challenges for it. And it's gonna be a hell of a moment when it officially happens. ーAlvarez said it was 3 thinga that affected,the directtv issues, TNt putting a big amount of commercias at that quarter and hangman losing Which is why I said putting it directly on Hangman losing wasn't true. The large reason for the plummet was the blackout for seven minutes. This literally happened before awhile ago and they lost like 300K viewers for a time.
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bog
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Post by bog on Aug 1, 2021 13:30:27 GMT -5
Only if Hangman doesn’t actually win the title at the conclusion of the story. We’re all bent out of shape at this point because of speculation and surmise that Hangman won’t be wrestling at All Out, for whatever reason. Which is fair, because this has always felt like the denouement of the story would be All Out 2021 and, now, apparently, there’s a good chance it won’t be. So, the story doesn’t finish at All Out, that’s going to be extremely disappointing. But if Hangman has his crowning moment at Full Gear, I don’t think there will be any real parallel to Starrcade 97. That story NEVER had a satisfying payoff. What I will say, though, is if Hangman genuinely isn’t wrestling at All Out, and AEW sacrifices Christian to the wolves as Kenny’s opponent, it’ll be the first time I’ve been genuinely miffed at AEW’s booking and will definitely affect the extent of my fandom, at least in the short term. Perfectly said I don't have that many criticisms towards AEW, but I do think they like to let feuds go for too long. Pinnacle/IC, Darby/Taz, etc. This one felt a little more special because it's been brewing for so long, and I loved they had Hangman actively avoiding talking about it. Now it's here and I don't want it to drag out as long as some of these other feuds. I will say though, the payoffs to the feuds are pretty satisfying. I like how much team Taz grew during the Darby feud, it just did not need to take nearly as long as it did.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 1, 2021 14:10:50 GMT -5
The reason Starrcade '97 was so bad was not just because of how overbooked the match was, and that it wasn't the right result, but because how we got there. Hogan used his politicking and creative control clause in his contract to screw Sting out of the decision. A long term storyline was completely derailed by a company's shortsighted decision to appease one man's ego. The other thing is that AEW doesn't really have that "big show" like Starrcade or Wrestlemania. I guess it helps when you only run four PPV's a year, but they haven't really built any of the four to be seen as more important or prestigious than the other three. At least we know that if this doesn't happen at All Out, it won't be because Kenny Omega is a raging egomaniac who can't handle losing. Not that it won't make it any less disappointing if All Out isn't a coronation of Adam Page. But it not being THE big show I think makes it possibly waiting for Full Gear a little less disappointing than it could've been. Now if it never happens and say Punk or Danielson cuts the line to get the championship instead? That would be a big mistake on their part.
But yeah, I get there will be major disappointed if Hangman gets screwed out of things. I'll be among the disappointed. But the Starrcade 97 moment was was so unique in its absurdity that I don't think any company will ever reach that particular lowlight again. They'd have to actively try to be that bad.
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Post by AndyUK on Aug 1, 2021 15:44:11 GMT -5
My guess is that because All Out is going to be all about Punk's first match in nearly 8 years and they're gonna have that main event show, they're just delaying him winning the title until Full Gear.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 15:54:46 GMT -5
Sting v the NWO/Hogan being built for 18 months and then Sting taking a clean 3 count, needing the match to be restarted to get a tainted win then being stripped of the title the next week was maybe the worst booking decision ever. This is nowhere close to that.
At worst it'll be a TNA Samoa Joe/Tetsuya Naito/Braun Strowman situation. Guys who fans were begging to win the title and at a fever pitch for but they delayed the big win and then when they did deliver it later it didn't come off as well as it would have if they did it at their peak.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Aug 1, 2021 16:24:18 GMT -5
So... Omega pins Hangman clean, then CM Punk comes out and says Rick Knox made a fast count even though he clearly didn't, so the match is restarted and Page wins, but is forced to vacate the belt on Dynamite a couple weeks later?
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Aug 1, 2021 23:44:04 GMT -5
I should clarify when I say Starrcade 97 moment, I mean it's their moment where the story is at the turning point of being remembered fondly or living in infamy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2021 0:56:58 GMT -5
Let me be clear first and foremost, I understand the stakes are not nearly as high as they were for WCW in 1997, but the concept is the same. I also have quite a bit of trust for AEW and their ability to book things correctly long term even if in the moment they don't make sense. The surprising directions that they've taken their angles in have almost always worked out in the past. That being said, I think that there is a clear parallel between this angle and the NWO angle circa 1997. The Elite has been presented as an invincible heel stable who has gotten away with everything for almost a year. We're at a point now where the angle is RED HOT and everybody is chomping at the bit to finally see them lose. But as we all saw on Wednesday, we're getting to a point where it might be working too well. It's to the point with some people where seeing them win gets people mad, like turn off the TV and rage quit mad. They have a clear end point for this story too, and a clear way that it should end. Much like Sting at Starrcade 1997, Hangman Page winning the belt at All Out is the only correct decision here. People were mad about the 10 man tag match (I wasn't particularly happy myself), and even though many were disproportionately angry in comparison to what had actually happened, it's illustrative that they need to tread very cautiously if they want to avoid a big backlash. A lot of the reason so many of us defended it as much as we did was the fact that this was clearly not the end of the story. Imagine how much angrier (and harder to justify) it would be if Hangman didn't end up leaving with the World Title at All Out? I think this is going to be an important thing to navigate properly for AEW. Lots of goodwill could be killed off in one night if they don't play their cards right. To put it frankly, I've been tired of Elite shtick since at least May or so. There's a tight rope to walk in terms of how much a crowd hates something, and it can quickly turn from "I can't wait for this asshole to lose" from a kayfabe perspective to "I'm tired of waiting for this asshole to lose" and you just tune out. It wouldn't be so bad if they would even occasionally give The Elite a mild comeuppance, but they've had nothing save for that loss to Penta and Eddie Kingston. Someone once brought up that this is how they booked Flair and Horsemen in the Crockett days, but I disagree. To paraphrase something Ric himself said "I'm a 16 time champion, and I'm pretty sure that means I've only won 16 matches" I recognize I'm just one guy, and there's plenty of good things to like about AEW, but I just don't have the desire for a lot of "Wait and see" past a certain point anymore. Hangman winning at All Out has to be the crescendo, and any other plan would be a massive misstep that would make me walk away for a while.
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Nr1Humanoid
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Aug 2, 2021 1:01:36 GMT -5
I hate that Page's winn is set in stone as it makes every title match before then rather pointless.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2021 1:23:30 GMT -5
I hate that Page's winn is set in stone as it makes every title match before then rather pointless. In fairness, Kenny has only defended the title against Mox in the rematch, and Jungle Boy (at least in recent memory). AEW is pretty good about not having the title defended once the main event for a PPV is set in stone. Granted, the title match for All Out isn't set all yet, but I sincerely hope that TK is smart enough to know that now is the time to pull the trigger on Hangman. I realize they're probably getting two huge signings in Punk and DBD, but they can work up the rankings same as everyone else. Let one of them fight Miro for the TNT title.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 2, 2021 1:37:00 GMT -5
I think it’s a good comparison because this is the biggest long term story AEW has told yet, and it involves the coronation of a homegrown star. If they mess it up, it may make me more jaded about their booking going forward. They’ve totally gotten me to trust their booking directions so far. Fumbling this would cause a big hit to that. And it would be extra disappointing because I expected them to be a place where this stuff doesn’t happen. Yeah, like, I would show them some patience that maybe it'd be like when Naito had to wait extra long to get the payoff to his Okada feud, but I do feel like it'd be better to not risk it.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Aug 2, 2021 2:34:01 GMT -5
Let me be clear first and foremost, I understand the stakes are not nearly as high as they were for WCW in 1997, but the concept is the same. I also have quite a bit of trust for AEW and their ability to book things correctly long term even if in the moment they don't make sense. The surprising directions that they've taken their angles in have almost always worked out in the past. That being said, I think that there is a clear parallel between this angle and the NWO angle circa 1997. The Elite has been presented as an invincible heel stable who has gotten away with everything for almost a year. We're at a point now where the angle is RED HOT and everybody is chomping at the bit to finally see them lose. But as we all saw on Wednesday, we're getting to a point where it might be working too well. It's to the point with some people where seeing them win gets people mad, like turn off the TV and rage quit mad. They have a clear end point for this story too, and a clear way that it should end. Much like Sting at Starrcade 1997, Hangman Page winning the belt at All Out is the only correct decision here. People were mad about the 10 man tag match (I wasn't particularly happy myself), and even though many were disproportionately angry in comparison to what had actually happened, it's illustrative that they need to tread very cautiously if they want to avoid a big backlash. A lot of the reason so many of us defended it as much as we did was the fact that this was clearly not the end of the story. Imagine how much angrier (and harder to justify) it would be if Hangman didn't end up leaving with the World Title at All Out? I think this is going to be an important thing to navigate properly for AEW. Lots of goodwill could be killed off in one night if they don't play their cards right. To put it frankly, I've been tired of Elite shtick since at least May or so. There's a tight rope to walk in terms of how much a crowd hates something, and it can quickly turn from "I can't wait for this asshole to lose" from a kayfabe perspective to "I'm tired of waiting for this asshole to lose" and you just tune out. It wouldn't be so bad if they would even occasionally give The Elite a mild comeuppance, but they've had nothing save for that loss to Penta and Eddie Kingston. Someone once brought up that this is how they booked Flair and Horsemen in the Crockett days, but I disagree. To paraphrase something Ric himself said "I'm a 16 time champion, and I'm pretty sure that means I've only won 16 matches" I recognize I'm just one guy, and there's plenty of good things to like about AEW, but I just don't have the desire for a lot of "Wait and see" past a certain point anymore. Hangman winning at All Out has to be the crescendo, and any other plan would be a massive misstep that would make me walk away for a while. Same.
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