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Post by Mid-Carder on Aug 9, 2021 17:04:50 GMT -5
I thought the brand split was a terrible idea back then and I still hate it. Two world titles in one company was the beginning of the end.
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Post by sungod2020 on Aug 9, 2021 19:58:58 GMT -5
I thought the brand split was a terrible idea back then and I still hate it. Two world titles in one company was the beginning of the end. I didn't mind the brand split and I like the idea of the World champion roaming through both shows. The two world title thing however devalues the company though. It makes less sense now since the pandemic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2021 23:30:58 GMT -5
The problem is, booking a brand split with a single champion is very clumsy, and they never really figured it out. It's really hard to determine #1 contenders and give the champion things to do on both shows. I've always wanted to hear arguments for an undisputed champion, though, because I do agree that it would be better. I just don't see it working very well with the brand split. So it's either one champion and no split, or a split and two champions. Unless someone can convince me otherwise.
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auph10imitated
Dennis Stamp
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Post by auph10imitated on Aug 10, 2021 9:06:56 GMT -5
2002 was the year I stopped watching full time so its one of those years where there's always gaps in my memory, where from 1991-2001 I know exactly what happened all year long and when, this was the year I got my first job and started to grow up so it was difficult to keep track of, so it certainly wasn't bad, it was just difficult to be a full time fan, I feel like it got bad in 2004.
I wasn't keen on the brand split, although I suppose there was an element of fun too it back then with the trades and stealing talent, but I just feel like it would have worked better in 2001 with the WCW brand and they never should have killed that brand, had they had WCW Nitro in Smackdowns spot, with a WCW set and primarily WCW stars then it would have felt different. I mean lets look at the brand split and the rosters as of May 2002 these guys were WCW alumni and they could have built a WCW Nitro brand around them.
Kevin Nash Scott Hall X-Pac (needed refreshing so send to WCW) Chris Benoit Hulk Hogan Ric Flair Booker T Big Show Kanyon William Regal Chris Jericho Perry Saturn Mike Awesome Raven Diamond Dallas Page Hugh Morrus Big Boss Man (maybe repackage him as Big Bubba to change it up) Rhyno Randy Orton Shawn Stasiak Tommy Dreamer Rico
CW Division: The Hurricane Billy Kidman Tajiri Spike Dudley Scotty II Hotty Chavo Guerrero
Women: (Mainly non wrestlers for bikini contests) Stacy Keibler Torrie Wilson Dawn Marie Terri Runnels Lillian Garcia Stephanie McMahon
That's a strong roster that looks like WCW and obviously you can build it from there.
Which would leave RAW like this:
Stone Cold Steve Austin Triple H The Rock Rob Van Dam Brock Lesnar (with Paul Heyman) The Undertaker Kane Eddie Guerrero (Id have him WWE as his character was much better known here) Edge Christian Kurt Angle Al Snow D'Lo Brown Goldust Mark Henry Mr Perfect Maven Rikishi Test Steve Blackman Steven Richards Val Venis Godfather
Womens Divison: Trish Stratus Jazz Lita Molly Holly Ivory Jacqueline
I would then have the Tag Titles exclusive to both shows The APA - (with Jackie) The Dudley Boyz Albert & Bull Buchanan (repackaged as a bad as team - new look and names) Billy & Chuck - (with Rico) The Hardy Boyz - (with Lita) The Holly Cousins The Impact Players - (with Dawn Marie) Jindrak and O'Haire - (with Stacy Keibler)
That is the full roster as of May 2002, I know things had moved past WCW at that point but I would had Stephanie McMahon buy half of the WWF from Ric Flair and to spite her dad she appoints Eric Bischoff as the GM and he renames it WCW Nitro, and its written in he has first pick of the roster and he picks all his old buddies along with a few more and just build it from there, you could eventually lead to the Eric vs Stephanie angle actually on WCW Nitro as they start off as pals, but he pisses her off.
Meanwhile Vince still owns RAW, but I would have him as a neutral figure head thats not involved as much, so that brand isnt GM orientated and just cracks on with its wrestler so you have a different vibe.
Nitro's first night is a tournament for the WCW World Heavyweight Title, since Hurricane is CW Champion WCW aquires that divison and WWE gets the Womens, mean while the tag titles are the travelling title for the time being as we have enough teams to do that.
Looking at the roster in July 2002 you have these newcomers and this is where I would add them: Chris Nowinski (WWF) Batista (WCW - as WWF has Brock and I would push them as the equivalent) Jamie Noble (WCW) Nidia (WCW) Jackie Gayda (Developmental) 3 Minute Warning (Tag Division) John Cena (WWF - WCW has Orton) Victoria (WWF) Shannon Moore (WCW) Rey Mysterio (WCW)
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Aug 10, 2021 9:39:09 GMT -5
This was the first point that I stopped regularly watching them. Bitterness still lingering from the inVasion, the Reign of Terror looming, and all that.
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Post by sungod2020 on Aug 10, 2021 11:00:38 GMT -5
The problem is, booking a brand split with a single champion is very clumsy, and they never really figured it out. It's really hard to determine #1 contenders and give the champion things to do on both shows. I've always wanted to hear arguments for an undisputed champion, though, because I do agree that it would be better. I just don't see it working very well with the brand split. So it's either one champion and no split, or a split and two champions. Unless someone can convince me otherwise. Well, I guess one reason to have an undisputed champion is to take on all comers. It'll make him more competitive and guys from both brands would be via for the championship. It could also potentially be a good ratings grabber to have the main guy on both shows while everybody below the World Championship level would have time to shine. As far as what to do on both shows, that is kinda tricky. I would say defend the championship regularly, but then that would make PPV defenses matter less. Between the one champion and no split, or a split and two champions, I would choose the former since at the end of the day, it's still one company. Also, it makes the Royal Rumble match less important. Why would one have to fight 29 other guys(or women) to have a title shot at Wrestlemania, when some other schmuck on the other roster can just attack the other World champion(who is suppose to be on equal footing for whoever the Royal Rumble winner chooses to face) and make him mad at you for it? It just devalues both titles and the prestige(a term I use loosely for a fake sport) of the Royal Rumble. In short, one World, one World champion. Edit:Also, I think instead of having a full "official" brand extension, they can just feature midcard talent more on one show, while the other half on the other just to get more screen time without having any "brand" loyalty. It would be like a brand split without being one if you get my drift.
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Post by nickcave on Aug 10, 2021 13:06:49 GMT -5
It gave us a great roster for the PS2 game Shut Your Mouth but the actual television was not good lol
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 28,035
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Post by 4real on Aug 10, 2021 14:25:19 GMT -5
Some of the best wrestling WWE has ever seen. The week to week TV though…not as good. But Smackdown in late 2002 was a very good show. Raw (like right now) was more difficult to get through.
Summerslam & Survivor Series that year are in the top 10 for me for PPV’s that WWE have produced. 2 outstanding shows. Obviously the debuts of Lesnar, Cena, Orton & Batista were massive for WWE in the long run.
I also got to see my first ever live WWE show in Birmingham. April/May just before the infamous Plane ride from hell. Hulk Hogan was WWE Champion but couldn’t be bothered to show up. Main event was Austin v Scott Hall. Lucky I got to see Austin before he left and ‘took his ball’ home. There was also a tag match with Taker & Lesnar v HHH & Matt Hardy. Guess who got pinned?
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Post by Feyrhausen on Aug 10, 2021 15:10:43 GMT -5
2002 was the year I stopped watching full time so its one of those years where there's always gaps in my memory, where from 1991-2001 I know exactly what happened all year long and when, this was the year I got my first job and started to grow up so it was difficult to keep track of, so it certainly wasn't bad, it was just difficult to be a full time fan, I feel like it got bad in 2004. I wasn't keen on the brand split, although I suppose there was an element of fun too it back then with the trades and stealing talent, but I just feel like it would have worked better in 2001 with the WCW brand and they never should have killed that brand, had they had WCW Nitro in Smackdowns spot, with a WCW set and primarily WCW stars then it would have felt different. I mean lets look at the brand split and the rosters as of May 2002 these guys were WCW alumni and they could have built a WCW Nitro brand around them. Kevin Nash Scott Hall X-Pac (needed refreshing so send to WCW) Chris Benoit Hulk Hogan Ric Flair Booker T Big Show Kanyon William Regal Chris Jericho Perry Saturn Mike Awesome Raven Diamond Dallas Page Hugh Morrus Big Boss Man (maybe repackage him as Big Bubba to change it up) Rhyno Randy Orton Shawn Stasiak Tommy Dreamer Rico CW Division: The Hurricane Billy Kidman Tajiri Spike Dudley Scotty II Hotty Chavo Guerrero Women: (Mainly non wrestlers for bikini contests) Stacy Keibler Torrie Wilson Dawn Marie Terri Runnels Lillian Garcia Stephanie McMahon That's a strong roster that looks like WCW and obviously you can build it from there. Which would leave RAW like this: Stone Cold Steve Austin Triple H The Rock Rob Van Dam Brock Lesnar (with Paul Heyman) The Undertaker Kane Eddie Guerrero (Id have him WWE as his character was much better known here) Edge Christian Kurt Angle Al Snow D'Lo Brown Goldust Mark Henry Mr Perfect Maven Rikishi Test Steve Blackman Steven Richards Val Venis Godfather Womens Divison: Trish Stratus Jazz Lita Molly Holly Ivory Jacqueline I would then have the Tag Titles exclusive to both shows The APA - (with Jackie) The Dudley Boyz Albert & Bull Buchanan (repackaged as a bad as team - new look and names) Billy & Chuck - (with Rico) The Hardy Boyz - (with Lita) The Holly Cousins The Impact Players - (with Dawn Marie) Jindrak and O'Haire - (with Stacy Keibler) That is the full roster as of May 2002, I know things had moved past WCW at that point but I would had Stephanie McMahon buy half of the WWF from Ric Flair and to spite her dad she appoints Eric Bischoff as the GM and he renames it WCW Nitro, and its written in he has first pick of the roster and he picks all his old buddies along with a few more and just build it from there, you could eventually lead to the Eric vs Stephanie angle actually on WCW Nitro as they start off as pals, but he pisses her off. Meanwhile Vince still owns RAW, but I would have him as a neutral figure head thats not involved as much, so that brand isnt GM orientated and just cracks on with its wrestler so you have a different vibe. Nitro's first night is a tournament for the WCW World Heavyweight Title, since Hurricane is CW Champion WCW aquires that divison and WWE gets the Womens, mean while the tag titles are the travelling title for the time being as we have enough teams to do that. Looking at the roster in July 2002 you have these newcomers and this is where I would add them: Chris Nowinski (WWF) Batista (WCW - as WWF has Brock and I would push them as the equivalent) Jamie Noble (WCW) Nidia (WCW) Jackie Gayda (Developmental) 3 Minute Warning (Tag Division) John Cena (WWF - WCW has Orton) Victoria (WWF) Shannon Moore (WCW) Rey Mysterio (WCW) From what I have read they considered rebranding a show to WCW, or at least Nitro, and met with resistance from the networks. Neither wanted to be associated with what was by then a toxic brand.
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auph10imitated
Dennis Stamp
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Post by auph10imitated on Aug 11, 2021 7:46:05 GMT -5
2002 was the year I stopped watching full time so its one of those years where there's always gaps in my memory, where from 1991-2001 I know exactly what happened all year long and when, this was the year I got my first job and started to grow up so it was difficult to keep track of, so it certainly wasn't bad, it was just difficult to be a full time fan, I feel like it got bad in 2004. I wasn't keen on the brand split, although I suppose there was an element of fun too it back then with the trades and stealing talent, but I just feel like it would have worked better in 2001 with the WCW brand and they never should have killed that brand, had they had WCW Nitro in Smackdowns spot, with a WCW set and primarily WCW stars then it would have felt different. I mean lets look at the brand split and the rosters as of May 2002 these guys were WCW alumni and they could have built a WCW Nitro brand around them. Kevin Nash Scott Hall X-Pac (needed refreshing so send to WCW) Chris Benoit Hulk Hogan Ric Flair Booker T Big Show Kanyon William Regal Chris Jericho Perry Saturn Mike Awesome Raven Diamond Dallas Page Hugh Morrus Big Boss Man (maybe repackage him as Big Bubba to change it up) Rhyno Randy Orton Shawn Stasiak Tommy Dreamer Rico CW Division: The Hurricane Billy Kidman Tajiri Spike Dudley Scotty II Hotty Chavo Guerrero Women: (Mainly non wrestlers for bikini contests) Stacy Keibler Torrie Wilson Dawn Marie Terri Runnels Lillian Garcia Stephanie McMahon That's a strong roster that looks like WCW and obviously you can build it from there. Which would leave RAW like this: Stone Cold Steve Austin Triple H The Rock Rob Van Dam Brock Lesnar (with Paul Heyman) The Undertaker Kane Eddie Guerrero (Id have him WWE as his character was much better known here) Edge Christian Kurt Angle Al Snow D'Lo Brown Goldust Mark Henry Mr Perfect Maven Rikishi Test Steve Blackman Steven Richards Val Venis Godfather Womens Divison: Trish Stratus Jazz Lita Molly Holly Ivory Jacqueline I would then have the Tag Titles exclusive to both shows The APA - (with Jackie) The Dudley Boyz Albert & Bull Buchanan (repackaged as a bad as team - new look and names) Billy & Chuck - (with Rico) The Hardy Boyz - (with Lita) The Holly Cousins The Impact Players - (with Dawn Marie) Jindrak and O'Haire - (with Stacy Keibler) That is the full roster as of May 2002, I know things had moved past WCW at that point but I would had Stephanie McMahon buy half of the WWF from Ric Flair and to spite her dad she appoints Eric Bischoff as the GM and he renames it WCW Nitro, and its written in he has first pick of the roster and he picks all his old buddies along with a few more and just build it from there, you could eventually lead to the Eric vs Stephanie angle actually on WCW Nitro as they start off as pals, but he pisses her off. Meanwhile Vince still owns RAW, but I would have him as a neutral figure head thats not involved as much, so that brand isnt GM orientated and just cracks on with its wrestler so you have a different vibe. Nitro's first night is a tournament for the WCW World Heavyweight Title, since Hurricane is CW Champion WCW aquires that divison and WWE gets the Womens, mean while the tag titles are the travelling title for the time being as we have enough teams to do that. Looking at the roster in July 2002 you have these newcomers and this is where I would add them: Chris Nowinski (WWF) Batista (WCW - as WWF has Brock and I would push them as the equivalent) Jamie Noble (WCW) Nidia (WCW) Jackie Gayda (Developmental) 3 Minute Warning (Tag Division) John Cena (WWF - WCW has Orton) Victoria (WWF) Shannon Moore (WCW) Rey Mysterio (WCW) From what I have read they considered rebranding a show to WCW, or at least Nitro, and met with resistance from the networks. Neither wanted to be associated with what was by then a toxic brand. Totally understandable to be fair. But from a fan perspective I would much rather have them kept WCW. I just wish the Networks gave them a chance in 2001 and they just carried on with WCW then only reset and perhaps on a smaller scale due to the roster.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Aug 11, 2021 8:25:23 GMT -5
From what I have read they considered rebranding a show to WCW, or at least Nitro, and met with resistance from the networks. Neither wanted to be associated with what was by then a toxic brand. Totally understandable to be fair. But from a fan perspective I would much rather have them kept WCW. I just wish the Networks gave them a chance in 2001 and they just carried on with WCW then only reset and perhaps on a smaller scale due to the roster. Vince would rather go broke with his own ideas/company than make a billion off of someone elses.
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Post by sungod2020 on Aug 11, 2021 8:35:38 GMT -5
From what I have read they considered rebranding a show to WCW, or at least Nitro, and met with resistance from the networks. Neither wanted to be associated with what was by then a toxic brand. Totally understandable to be fair. But from a fan perspective I would much rather have them kept WCW. I just wish the Networks gave them a chance in 2001 and they just carried on with WCW then only reset and perhaps on a smaller scale due to the roster. Here's the problem with that(as was with the invasion storyline), by the end of WCW's run, fans lost good faith in them, many switched to the more exciting and lively WWF. If WCW when it was it's own company couldn't succeed, what makes a WWF/E run version of it(that we were also conditioned to see as inferior during the invasion angle) be any different, even with big names on it? Personally speaking, I think the idea of WWF vs. WCW stars pitting against each other is one of those things that sounds cool and dreamworthy on paper, but can't really work in execution, mostly because in reality, they're all working for the same company. The reason the Monday Night Wars was an exciting time to be a fan is because the beef between the two was real. Seeing one wrestler defect to the other company was genuinely seen as a shock and exciting, and fulfilled with possibilities. That's why the brand split dosen't have that same effect because it's all a work. There's no need to have these "brand wars" going into Survivor Series because not only do they all work for the same company, they can defect to the other brand months later, rendering this whole "brand loyalty" thing pointless. I just don't think even with the biggest names WCW had going by the end of it's existence that an invasion storyline would work given it's circumstances.
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PL23
AC Slater
Posts: 101
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Post by PL23 on Aug 11, 2021 14:18:59 GMT -5
For me, 2002 was super hit or miss. One of my absolute favourite things in my time watching wrestling happened in 2002 with Shawn's return storyline and feud with Hunter. Their Summerslam 02 match is still up there with my all time favourites. I also liked how Raw and Smackdown actually felt different (much like 2016) which meant you could choose a favourite brand. Smackdown was building some great things that would pay off in 2003.
However, the attempt to still be like the attitude era was the issue - particularly on Raw - and in many cases it was worse than the attitude era in terms of the tasteless stuff that we saw. However, 2002 was a pattern that bad been building in WWE post-Mania X7 where the wheels started to come off and they began to decline from the peak.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 12, 2021 6:09:57 GMT -5
It was the year creativity in wrestling basically ended for me. The name change represented a shift from stories and characters to random and mediocre shit. There have been some highlights since like Punk, Bryan, Shield etc....but few and far between. The decline has coincided with Vince's growing senility.
I was a huge WWF fan. I hate WWE.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Aug 12, 2021 9:28:58 GMT -5
When I started watching so admittedly, it got a soft space in my heart.
Looking back on it tho? Yeah, it was a bit cheeks, lol.
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Aug 12, 2021 9:50:29 GMT -5
Totally understandable to be fair. But from a fan perspective I would much rather have them kept WCW. I just wish the Networks gave them a chance in 2001 and they just carried on with WCW then only reset and perhaps on a smaller scale due to the roster. Vince would rather go broke with his own ideas/company than make a billion off of someone elses. Say, what was that new show in 2006 again?
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Aug 12, 2021 10:46:22 GMT -5
Totally understandable to be fair. But from a fan perspective I would much rather have them kept WCW. I just wish the Networks gave them a chance in 2001 and they just carried on with WCW then only reset and perhaps on a smaller scale due to the roster. Here's the problem with that(as was with the invasion storyline), by the end of WCW's run, fans lost good faith in them, many switched to the more exciting and lively WWF. If WCW when it was it's own company couldn't succeed, what makes a WWF/E run version of it(that we were also conditioned to see as inferior during the invasion angle) be any different, even with big names on it? Personally speaking, I think the idea of WWF vs. WCW stars pitting against each other is one of those things that sounds cool and dreamworthy on paper, but can't really work in execution, mostly because in reality, they're all working for the same company. The reason the Monday Night Wars was an exciting time to be a fan is because the beef between the two was real. Seeing one wrestler defect to the other company was genuinely seen as a shock and exciting, and fulfilled with possibilities. That's why the brand split dosen't have that same effect because it's all a work. There's no need to have these "brand wars" going into Survivor Series because not only do they all work for the same company, they can defect to the other brand months later, rendering this whole "brand loyalty" thing pointless. I just don't think even with the biggest names WCW had going by the end of it's existence that an invasion storyline would work given it's circumstances. The red and blue t-shirts.....the God damn red and blue t-shirts!
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Post by Feyrhausen on Aug 12, 2021 11:20:31 GMT -5
Vince would rather go broke with his own ideas/company than make a billion off of someone elses. Say, what was that new show in 2006 again? And what happened to that new show?
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Aug 12, 2021 11:36:28 GMT -5
Say, what was that new show in 2006 again? And what happened to that new show? Became what it should have been all along (and yet that too is about to be watered down). But...I see your point. WWECW was mostly in-name-only, of course.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 11:44:08 GMT -5
There's the conspiracy theory that Vince started ECW just to finally kill off the ECW chants - and he did.
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