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Post by flowercity on Sept 17, 2021 9:20:16 GMT -5
Punk did mention the girls (although I didn't know who Van Zant was at the time); and given they were if anything more spotlighted than the men on camera (if only due to the one hamming it up behind Lambert), I didn't take it as a homophobic joke per se, but just a lame one (which was really the case with most of what Jericho said, but the crowd ate it up, so....). Also, saying the women were obviously not included when Jericho referred to the team, they are part of the team, and they're standing right there in the ring is... kind of a stretch, IMO. People want to get mad at this for whatever reason. Great segment. Over huge with the live crowd and did a great job of obtaining viewers on television. Hope they continue working together.
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clifford
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Post by clifford on Sept 17, 2021 9:27:19 GMT -5
I'd say no, just because the terminology of Top and Bottom is very much more recognised as a part of gay sex language, and mainstream recognised terms at that. I think he knew what he was doing, it was homophobic and another example of AEW management really needing to vet what people are saying before letting them go out and say it, or at least having more strict guidelines around improv if they are letting people do their own thing. It's not the end of the world, it's a pretty tame joke all things considered, but it's just tired, unfunny and shows more about the person making the 'joke' and who thinks it's funny than anything else. It's only homophobic if someone in the ring was actually gay.That is absolutely, categorically, undeniably 100% not how it works.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Sept 17, 2021 9:29:32 GMT -5
Nah, I don't think people "want to get mad". Even if Jericho didn't intend it, it's pretty close to pretty common "jokes" made about homosexuals. So I get it, I just don't think it's a slam dunk that it was intended that way.
And Jericho can do better. Just because he's over enough to get anything over - much like Rock got a crowd chanting "popcorn farts" once - doesn't mean he couldn't get better material.
(Hager's also a weird choice, but I assume Sammy's tied up with Fuego's impending demise.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2021 9:32:39 GMT -5
It's only homophobic if someone in the ring was actually gay. That is absolutely, categorically, undeniably 100% not how it works. Suggesting two guys are having sex as a joke can't be homophobic if they're not gay. If Ethan Page was gay and the joke was "Har Har, he's obviously the one on top guys!" then yeah. That would be homophobic. Gay jokes have been made at my expense in the past but I can't say they're homophobic towards me because I'm into women.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Sept 17, 2021 9:42:56 GMT -5
That is absolutely, categorically, undeniably 100% not how it works. Suggesting two guys are having sex as a joke can't be homophobic if they're not gay. If Ethan Page was gay and the joke was "Har Har, he's obviously the one on top guys!" then yeah. That would be homophobic. Gay jokes have been made at my expense in the past but I can't say they're homophobic towards me because I'm into women. That.....that isn't how it works. Homophobia is the fear of homosexuality - though in our modern definition it generally means more to be unaccepting or insulting to, rather than outright afraid of - people dont have to be gay for something to be homophobic. The intent is to cause laughter at the expense of someone by suggesting they were gay; that is suggesting that homosexuality is a thing to be ashamed of and laughed at. If someone in the ring was actually gay, ironically, it would be less homophobic as he could have been actively asking the question - which would be rude, but not necessarily an insult. To put it another way, if someone uses the N word when talking about white people, are they being racist, or is it ok to use the N word as long as it's to white people? Clearly it isn't - we'd still call them a racist. You don't need someone from the thing you are insulting to be involved for it to be insulting, as the intent is what matters. He intended to make people laugh by insinuating being gay was a laughable matter.
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clifford
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Post by clifford on Sept 17, 2021 9:46:47 GMT -5
That is absolutely, categorically, undeniably 100% not how it works. Suggesting two guys are having sex as a joke can't be homophobic if they're not gay. If Ethan Page was gay and the joke was "Har Har, he's obviously the one on top guys!" then yeah. That would be homophobic. Gay jokes have been made at my expense in the past but I can't say they're homophobic towards me because I'm into women. I don't know really what to say to this...truly. The whole 'joke', and I use that term loosely, is that the fighters he is addressing are gay. It doesn't matter what the sexuality of the subject is, if you use homophobic language against anyone, that is homophobic. There are no qualifiers or exceptions.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Sept 17, 2021 9:49:27 GMT -5
That is absolutely, categorically, undeniably 100% not how it works. Suggesting two guys are having sex as a joke can't be homophobic if they're not gay. If Ethan Page was gay and the joke was "Har Har, he's obviously the one on top guys!" then yeah. That would be homophobic. Gay jokes have been made at my expense in the past but I can't say they're homophobic towards me because I'm into women. If the "punchline"is that someone is gay , that is homophobic.
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Post by sushiburrito on Sept 17, 2021 9:59:39 GMT -5
Punk did mention the girls (although I didn't know who Van Zant was at the time); and given they were if anything more spotlighted than the men on camera (if only due to the one hamming it up behind Lambert), I didn't take it as a homophobic joke per se, but just a lame one (which was really the case with most of what Jericho said, but the crowd ate it up, so....). Also, saying the women were obviously not included when Jericho referred to the team, they are part of the team, and they're standing right there in the ring is... kind of a stretch, IMO. So the women being in the ring and part of the team etc makes his "joke" not homophobic? Interesting stretch there to try to defend him. IMO of course. He was insulting them with a "gay is bad" joke. I get you think it was a lame joke but it was also a lame homophobic joke. But hey as long as the crowd ate it up I guess.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Sept 17, 2021 10:40:33 GMT -5
That is absolutely, categorically, undeniably 100% not how it works. Suggesting two guys are having sex as a joke can't be homophobic if they're not gay. If Ethan Page was gay and the joke was "Har Har, he's obviously the one on top guys!" then yeah. That would be homophobic. Gay jokes have been made at my expense in the past but I can't say they're homophobic towards me because I'm into women. Buddy, this I definitely not how any of this works
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Sept 17, 2021 10:44:51 GMT -5
So the women being in the ring and part of the team etc makes his "joke" not homophobic? Interesting stretch there to try to defend him. IMO of course. He was insulting them with a "gay is bad" joke. I get you think it was a lame joke but it was also a lame homophobic joke. But hey as long as the crowd ate it up I guess. With all due respect, while I agree that is often used as one, "who's on top" is also used a joke in heterosexual contexts. Hence it's a lame joke, not necessarily a homophobic one (it sniffs uncomfortably close to it, though, because it still trades on "unmanly" tropes that walk hand in hand with homophobia). So, to sum up, I'd be just as happy to never see a "joke" like it again, but I think there's reasonable doubt whether it was actually homophobic (by intent or intrinsically), because a) "who's on top" jokes do not only exist in that context, and b) the group involved were both men and women. I never excused it because the crowd ate it up; I actually said it wasn't great even though the crowd ate it up. So if you disagree, I'm listening. (With that being said, I think Jericho's primary sin in this case is likely to be old, lazy promo habits and not thinking about what he says before he says it. If a lot of people were bothered by what he said, he should take that to heart and apologise.)
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Post by Hypnosis on Sept 17, 2021 11:29:39 GMT -5
So the women being in the ring and part of the team etc makes his "joke" not homophobic? Interesting stretch there to try to defend him. IMO of course. He was insulting them with a "gay is bad" joke. I get you think it was a lame joke but it was also a lame homophobic joke. But hey as long as the crowd ate it up I guess. With all due respect, while I agree that is often used as one, "who's on top" is also used a joke in heterosexual contexts. Hence it's a lame joke, not necessarily a homophobic one (it sniffs uncomfortably close to it, though, because it still trades on "unmanly" tropes that walk hand in hand with homophobia). So, to sum up, I'd be just as happy to never see a "joke" like it again, but I think there's reasonable doubt whether it was actually homophobic (by intent or intrinsically), because a) "who's on top" jokes do not only exist in that context, and b) the group involved were both men and women. I never excused it because the crowd ate it up; I actually said it wasn't great even though the crowd ate it up. So if you disagree, I'm listening. (With that being said, I think Jericho's primary sin in this case is likely to be old, lazy promo habits and not thinking about what he says before he says it. If a lot of people were bothered by what he said, he should take that to heart and apologise.) The lazy promo habits would likely be the answer. Back in 1999, Jericho made a joke about The Rock and Mankind being in love with each other, and in 2000, Jericho asked Eddie Guerrero and Chyna:"Which one is the man?" Either way, there's no place for that kind of material in wrestling.
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Post by sushiburrito on Sept 17, 2021 13:26:34 GMT -5
So the women being in the ring and part of the team etc makes his "joke" not homophobic? Interesting stretch there to try to defend him. IMO of course. He was insulting them with a "gay is bad" joke. I get you think it was a lame joke but it was also a lame homophobic joke. But hey as long as the crowd ate it up I guess. With all due respect, while I agree that is often used as one, "who's on top" is also used a joke in heterosexual contexts. Hence it's a lame joke, not necessarily a homophobic one (it sniffs uncomfortably close to it, though, because it still trades on "unmanly" tropes that walk hand in hand with homophobia). So, to sum up, I'd be just as happy to never see a "joke" like it again, but I think there's reasonable doubt whether it was actually homophobic (by intent or intrinsically), because a) "who's on top" jokes do not only exist in that context, and b) the group involved were both men and women. I never excused it because the crowd ate it up; I actually said it wasn't great even though the crowd ate it up. So if you disagree, I'm listening. (With that being said, I think Jericho's primary sin in this case is likely to be old, lazy promo habits and not thinking about what he says before he says it. If a lot of people were bothered by what he said, he should take that to heart and apologise.) I guess I just can't genuinely think of any "Who's on top" jokes in heterosexual contexts. Do you mean in a who wears the pants in the relationship type of way? Like you said if that's the case it still treads on unmanly tropes and isn't great either. Just my opinion and well others also that it seemed with the top terminology he was going for a "haha you're gay! Which one of you takes it in the ass?!?" joke. Still don't see how women being in the ring makes it any better but that's on me I guess. Apologize I misread you're "the crowd ate it up" part.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Sept 17, 2021 16:53:54 GMT -5
I guess I just can't genuinely think of any "Who's on top" jokes in heterosexual contexts. Do you mean in a who wears the pants in the relationship type of way? Like you said if that's the case it still treads on unmanly tropes and isn't great either. Just my opinion and well others also that it seemed with the top terminology he was going for a "haha you're gay! Which one of you takes it in the ass?!?" joke. Still don't see how women being in the ring makes it any better but that's on me I guess. Apologize I misread you're "the crowd ate it up" part. Yeah, it's usually a "who wears the pants" thing. So, yeah, not great (but of course, calling Callis a bitch is also trading on unmanliness tropes). The presence of women made it seem more to me like Jericho was going for that rather than a "ha ha, you're gay!" joke (also because iirc he didn't do anything else that seemed like innuendo to that effect). That doesn't mean I'm necessarily right of course - I don't know what was in Jericho's head - just that's how it came off to me hearing it.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Sept 17, 2021 19:07:37 GMT -5
Going back to the topic, Dan Lambert is a heat magnet. He definitely gets how to work a crowd.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Sept 18, 2021 22:13:43 GMT -5
My issue is the amount of people from American Top Team who show up with him and end up doing nothing.
What’s the point? If only the Men of The Year are going to be fighting with Lambert, stop bringing all these other folks to flex, mean mug, and then do nothing. It’s so pointless.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Sept 18, 2021 22:24:44 GMT -5
My issue is the amount of people from American Top Team who show up with him and end up doing nothing. What’s the point? If only the Men of The Year are going to be fighting with Lambert, stop bringing all these other folks to flex, mean mug, and then do nothing. It’s so pointless. They look so bored usually too lol
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Development through Destruction.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Sept 18, 2021 22:29:01 GMT -5
My issue is the amount of people from American Top Team who show up with him and end up doing nothing. What’s the point? If only the Men of The Year are going to be fighting with Lambert, stop bringing all these other folks to flex, mean mug, and then do nothing. It’s so pointless. They look so bored usually too lol Kayla Harrison and Paige Van Zandt looked like the only 2 who wanted to be there. Junior Dos Santos, Andrei Arlovski, Amanda Nunes, and Jorge Masvidal all they couldn’t have cared less.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Sept 18, 2021 23:22:06 GMT -5
They're there so he doesn't get jumped by AEW wrestlers for crapping on them and the company (and not incidentally to show off how important he is).
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Post by EP 54 is banned from Collision on Sept 19, 2021 8:40:00 GMT -5
I have one question... who the f*** is Dan Lambert. and why should I give a toss about him?
(I know I've googled him, but AEW hasn't really been very effective at getting this across. Similar to how they treat the Japanese guys they bring in)
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4TheGlory
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Post by 4TheGlory on Sept 19, 2021 8:47:11 GMT -5
I have one question... who the f*** is Dan Lambert. and why should I give a toss about him? (I know I've googled him, but AEW hasn't really been very effective at getting this across. Similar to how they treat the Japanese guys they bring in) They’ve said he’s from American Top Team about 6 million times and are constantly surrounding him self with his champion fighters
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