lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
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Post by lucas_lee on Sept 11, 2021 15:03:45 GMT -5
But they built up those talents from the get-go in those divisions. What folks are saying is they shouldve spent time building up the black male roster from the start. They did that with Scorpio Sky and I cant think of anyone else. When did Big E debut on WWE TV? 2013? Earlier than that? It's taken him 8+ years to reach a level where he could be in a main event. He was used very well in the tag ranks, got featured, and eventually got his break. Lashley had to kill it in TNA for years before coming back and being pushed like he deserves to be pushed. It's not something you can force (see Jinder, see ADR, etc) or do instantly. I can't speak on what the black part of the roster looked like in 2019-20 because I don't remember the roster from 2019, and 2020 was largely a blur due to the pandemic, but really all AEW can do is put talent that is worthy of being on TV, on TV. Give them something that focuses on their strengths. They'll get over, or they won't, and as long as AEW doesn't have a bias against minorities at the top of the card, then it seems like an issue that will largely fix itself. I think the issue that many people have taken on social media is Cody touting diversity and such and not living up to his promise in terms of the singles ranks. |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 11, 2021 15:10:37 GMT -5
But they built up those talents from the get-go in those divisions. What folks are saying is they shouldve spent time building up the black male roster from the start. They did that with Scorpio Sky and I cant think of anyone else. When did Big E debut on WWE TV? 2013? Earlier than that? It's taken him 8+ years to reach a level where he could be in a main event. uhhhhhhh are you trying to suggest every moment of those 8 years was necessary? If they'd have tried to move him into a main event program sooner, it was doomed to fail? There was no point in time that his stable, which was the hottest act in the company and everyone loved, could have spun him off into going after world titles? People are a little bit acting like "give Mahal the title while the entire audience thinks of him as a jobber, and then keep treating him like a jobber after winning" and "push a dude up the card over a period of a few months" are the same thing. (this particular example is also a bit hampered by the fact that his stablemate had a storyline where the racist boss refused to push him as a singles star until circumstance forced him to, and ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE understood this storyline to be based on fact, and then the racist boss was ultimately kayfabe proved correct when he lost the title in like five seconds.) |
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Sept 11, 2021 15:17:11 GMT -5
In the case of Dante Martin they have to be a bit careful. If you to quickly elevate someone that young you run the risk of having the Orton fallout where he's 26 and everyone is tired of him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 15:17:56 GMT -5
When did Big E debut on WWE TV? 2013? Earlier than that? It's taken him 8+ years to reach a level where he could be in a main event. He was used very well in the tag ranks, got featured, and eventually got his break. Lashley had to kill it in TNA for years before coming back and being pushed like he deserves to be pushed. It's not something you can force (see Jinder, see ADR, etc) or do instantly. I can't speak on what the black part of the roster looked like in 2019-20 because I don't remember the roster from 2019, and 2020 was largely a blur due to the pandemic, but really all AEW can do is put talent that is worthy of being on TV, on TV. Give them something that focuses on their strengths. They'll get over, or they won't, and as long as AEW doesn't have a bias against minorities at the top of the card, then it seems like an issue that will largely fix itself. I think the issue that many people have taken on social media is Cody touting diversity and such and not living up to his promise in terms of the singles ranks. What did Cody say? I don't recall that. |
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 7,095
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Post by lucas_lee on Sept 11, 2021 15:26:16 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 15:29:53 GMT -5
And that's just a few things he said. I remember him speaking to people on Twitter about diversity with their roster a good amount of times as well. You factor in other interviews too, he's been saying this stuff for a while now. |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Sept 11, 2021 15:30:18 GMT -5
But we can see right now,they are building at very least Max Caster as a player in AEW.They are building Ogogo(even if he took time off because of injury),they are building Dante Martin and Starks. They spent the time at the start building who they believed were the best they had available, same thing now. When is Ogogo supposed to be back? It got a lot cringing and gnashing of teeth on here, but his angle with Cody was still treated like a big deal on screen. I wonder where he would be now if he wasn't injured |
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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Post by Dub H on Sept 11, 2021 15:33:15 GMT -5
But we can see right now,they are building at very least Max Caster as a player in AEW.They are building Ogogo(even if he took time off because of injury),they are building Dante Martin and Starks. They spent the time at the start building who they believed were the best they had available, same thing now. When is Ogogo supposed to be back? It got a lot cringing and gnashing of teeth on here, but his angle with Cody was still treated like a big deal on screen. I wonder where he would be now if he wasn't injured I mean booking wise the attention ogogo got was good. The issue was the story behind it with the whole nationalist undertone |
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
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Post by chazraps on Sept 11, 2021 15:35:20 GMT -5
If anyone thinks it's about a "quota," you're missing the point of what the thread is about.
Absolutely nobody is advocating for someone being rushed, shoe-horned or benefitting from a proposed tokenism.
There's main event level black talent in the world of wrestling right now, and especially looking at the indys over the pandemic (when entire shows of solely black talent could be and were booked) there's just no excuse not to prominently feature and push marquee black talent.
It's wrestling, and WWE's shortcomings over the past 20 years doesn't illustrate a mandate of how it "has to be." If any promotion positions a main event level talent in front of a camera and presents them as a main eventer, they'll look like a main event talent.
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Post by The Legendary Ring Troll {BLM} on Sept 11, 2021 15:54:42 GMT -5
What’s Koto Brazil up to? He’d be a good pickup, I enjoyed him in Injustice. Speaking of, Myron Reed would be great. Willie Mack is desperately in need of a big promotion. Moose if he didn’t resign with Impact.
If they had tried to build up some guys like they did with Darby and Jungle Boy, I think they could have made Marc Quen a star. Kassidy’s come into his own a lot lately, too, but he may have needed the time he had.
They tried with Sky. Still trying. Dude’s just…there, though.
Will Hobbs has been built and I think is ready to break thru.
Other than these guys, though, I can’t think of anyone else that was signed to their roster that they could have built into a credible star. I feel like most of their PoC roster members are recent graduates of various places and probably not quite ready. They definitely could have done better when initially hiring.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 11, 2021 16:06:08 GMT -5
What’s Koto Brazil up to? He’d be a good pickup, I enjoyed him in Injustice. Speaking of, Myron Reed would be great. Willie Mack is desperately in need of a big promotion. Moose if he didn’t resign with Impact. If they had tried to build up some guys like they did with Darby and Jungle Boy, I think they could have made Marc Quen a star. Kassidy’s come into his own a lot lately, too, but he may have needed the time he had. They tried with Sky. Still trying. Dude’s just…there, though. Will Hobbs has been built and I think is ready to break thru. Other than these guys, though, I can’t think of anyone else that was signed to their roster that they could have built into a credible star. I feel like most of their PoC roster members are recent graduates of various places and probably not quite ready. They definitely could have done better when initially hiring. That was my earlier point, though; when initially hiring, there wasn’t much in the way of marquee indie black talent available, and for the most part the most established names on the scene have been under contracts with other companies since AEW started. There’s definitely more available over the past number of months, and that’s why we see Hobbs, Starks (both brought in a year ago or so), the Martins, Moriarty, etc getting signed and in some cases pushed pretty hard. But who was going to come in who could slot into the main event scene right away, for a company now expecting to consistently hit over a million viewers a week and who now hit over 200,000 PPV buys? That talent DOES exist, and I think we’ll see a bunch of it in big spots in AEW, but who was going to be in that spot quickly in the company given that we’re three years in and the main young guns people always talk up in AEW still aren’t consistently main eventing, either? It’s pretty indicative of the company’s general approach to building up new featured names, while they let the more established guys sell the shows in the main event for the time being. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 11, 2021 16:27:40 GMT -5
So far as elevating Latino talent, I’m flabbergasted Penta hasn’t gotten more of a main event push. I get Lucha Bros are meant to be tag division cornerstones, but he’s charismatic as f*** even with limited English speaking. He crosses over in a way similar to top NJPW talent stateside.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Sept 11, 2021 16:41:12 GMT -5
Somebody backstage heard us, because dudes I didn't expect are showing up in that AEW Dark taping.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Sept 11, 2021 16:54:36 GMT -5
I'm betting we're gonna have the same conversation next year and we'll have the same folks saying to be patient and wait. At some point we need to put AEW to task for putting their money where their mouth is. Or we can look at the context of where things are and not do that. Because we really don't have to do what you're saying. Unfortunately, the context of where things are is that this same topic keeps getting brought up on here again and again, the "they're building up PoC talents, it's going to improve" argument keeps getting made, and to date we haven't really seen much difference in the onscreen product. I can't agree with your point that Impact and RoH's PoC talent has been locked down and unavailable. AEW didn't emerge from a vacuum; every big name they've got was working somewhere else when this started. Outside of Punk, every big name from the latest wave of signings was under contract elsewhere. We don't know the details of every individual talent negotiation AEW's engaged in, and we never will, but we sure can look at the pattern of who's ended up on their roster. The promotion's in its third year now, does it really make sense to call it a coincidence that the high profile signings who've joined the company without starting at the bottom have been almost exclusively white, especially when no other major televised promotion in the US right now has the same disparity? Either AEW isn't reaching out to PoC talent on par with their white hires as a priority, or the PoC talent they've reached out to have concluded that AEW isn't right for them. Neither scenario is a good look for the company. |
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Post by Fake Jesus on Sept 11, 2021 17:28:16 GMT -5
So far as elevating Latino talent, I’m flabbergasted Penta hasn’t gotten more of a main event push. I get Lucha Bros are meant to be tag division cornerstones, but he’s charismatic as f*** even with limited English speaking. He crosses over in a way similar to top NJPW talent stateside. Idk if we can mention the Lucha Bros for this anymore. A month ago, sure, but they're literally the tag champs now so they're going to be getting a hell of a lot of screen time |
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Sept 11, 2021 17:35:59 GMT -5
Or we can look at the context of where things are and not do that. Because we really don't have to do what you're saying. Unfortunately, the context of where things are is that this same topic keeps getting brought up on here again and again, the "they're building up PoC talents, it's going to improve" argument keeps getting made, and to date we haven't really seen much difference in the onscreen product. I can't agree with your point that Impact and RoH's PoC talent has been locked down and unavailable. AEW didn't emerge from a vacuum; every big name they've got was working somewhere else when this started. Outside of Punk, every big name from the latest wave of signings was under contract elsewhere. We don't know the details of every individual talent negotiation AEW's engaged in, and we never will, but we sure can look at the pattern of who's ended up on their roster. The promotion's in its third year now, does it really make sense to call it a coincidence that the high profile signings who've joined the company without starting at the bottom have been almost exclusively white, especially when no other major televised promotion in the US right now has the same disparity? Either AEW isn't reaching out to PoC talent on par with their white hires as a priority, or the PoC talent they've reached out to have concluded that AEW isn't right for them. Neither scenario is a good look for the company. The first one is about overall diversity: Which clearly isnt an issue anymore, if anything that shows growth The other one is a few months apart,thats barely time for how AEW build people. The only areas that lack diversity,and is the main topic of the thread,is the Single Mans Main Event Title,which currently there are people building towards |
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Post by polarbearpete on Sept 11, 2021 17:37:47 GMT -5
So far as elevating Latino talent, I’m flabbergasted Penta hasn’t gotten more of a main event push. I get Lucha Bros are meant to be tag division cornerstones, but he’s charismatic as f*** even with limited English speaking. He crosses over in a way similar to top NJPW talent stateside. Idk if we can mention the Lucha Bros for this anymore. A month ago, sure, but they're literally the tag champs now so they're going to be getting a hell of a lot of screen time I think the point is he (and Fenix) could have been pushed as a legit main event singles star the past two years. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 11, 2021 17:58:48 GMT -5
Idk if we can mention the Lucha Bros for this anymore. A month ago, sure, but they're literally the tag champs now so they're going to be getting a hell of a lot of screen time I think the point is he (and Fenix) could have been pushed as a legit main event singles star the past two years. Definitely Penta, if only because of his history against Kenny from the first Chicago show. They're both in sweet positions either way though. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 11, 2021 18:03:59 GMT -5
Or we can look at the context of where things are and not do that. Because we really don't have to do what you're saying. Unfortunately, the context of where things are is that this same topic keeps getting brought up on here again and again, the "they're building up PoC talents, it's going to improve" argument keeps getting made, and to date we haven't really seen much difference in the onscreen product. I can't agree with your point that Impact and RoH's PoC talent has been locked down and unavailable. AEW didn't emerge from a vacuum; every big name they've got was working somewhere else when this started. Outside of Punk, every big name from the latest wave of signings was under contract elsewhere. We don't know the details of every individual talent negotiation AEW's engaged in, and we never will, but we sure can look at the pattern of who's ended up on their roster. The promotion's in its third year now, does it really make sense to call it a coincidence that the high profile signings who've joined the company without starting at the bottom have been almost exclusively white, especially when no other major televised promotion in the US right now has the same disparity? Either AEW isn't reaching out to PoC talent on par with their white hires as a priority, or the PoC talent they've reached out to have concluded that AEW isn't right for them. Neither scenario is a good look for the company. ...But they are locked down and unavailable. The guys they brought in at the start of the company were not locked into contracts elsewhere, or if they were they had contracts like MJF and Pillman had with MLW that let them work elsewhere for awhile; otherwise they would not have been allowed to sign with AEW, as per contract law. Was Cody supposed to go up to Delirious and say "Hey, I know you guys have Gresham under a deal and are angling to have him book the new women's division and lead a revival of the Pure title, but we really want him, so let us have him, k?" AEW is two years old: most of these guys are presumably under contracts of longer term than that, as almost none of them have, to the best of public knowledge, been free agents any time recently besides Moose and maybe (though it might've been kayfabe'd for the purpose of a storyline) Shane Taylor in ROH...for the record, the second Shane Taylor IS available, AEW and NJPW should be all over him, the guy is money. And no, I'll repeat again, it's not a coincidence that the guys who haven't had to start near the bottom have been white, because the established names in US pro wrestling are predominantly and disproportionately white and have been for literally decades. If AEW, a two year old startup with aims of being a major player on the level of WWE, is trying to build up a brand by getting established names to hook new fans in via their main event scene, then yes, they're going to draw from that well, which is why their initial main event scene was Jericho, Moxley, and Omega, and why someone like Brodie Lee got a featured spot when he debuted. Even guys like Cage and Archer who came over from Impact and NJPW at least were large enough to instantly be put over as major monster heel threats to Moxley while he was champion. And now in 2021 you've got Punk, Danielson, Black, Andrade, and Cole hitting the market, and I think everyone agrees AEW would be insane to pass on any of them. Again, I hate to put the onus out like this, but who was supposed to be the available black male wrestler over the past two years who was available on the market and who had the instant credibility with the larger-scale audience AEW was shooting for to be slotted into the main event scene immediately upon signing? Lashley and Keith Lee have the same size advantage that Archer and Cage have along with tons of skill and ability, but both were already under WWE contract. Ricochet is superhuman and just needs a featured spot to get over for the absolute marvel he is, but he was under WWE contract. New Day is a pop cultural merch-selling phenomenon the crowd rightly adores, but there's no way WWE was going to let them near the open market once their buddies were starting up a rival promotion. Jay Lethal is an established name and one of the best all-rounders out there, but he's been signed long-term with ROH. Most of the other names we can come up with wouldn't come in with immediate credibility with the audience to put them on par with Omega or Moxley, so they'd need time to be built up for the audience, as well...and most of them were already or are still under WWE contract (Strickland, Cedric, Rush, etc) or Impact/ROH contracts. So, in those two years, who was it going to be who'd come in and not need some time to be built up for the audience? Hobbs got some credibility very quickly, and his strength and power are a sight to behold (seriously, I adore the guy and DAMNIT, I WANT HIM TO BEAT MIRO), but he wasn't a known commodity at the start; and hell, they ARE building him up pretty quickly, given that he appears to be ticketed for a program with CM Punk, and already got to work with Sting for his own return. Would it have been another indie signing? If so, then again, who would it be? The only guy with instant name recognition, enough to not need much building up for the audience, to hit the market in the last year or so has been Lio Rush, and AEW signed him. Meanwhile in the last few months they made sure to ink Top Flight and Lee Moriarty because all three of those guys are @#$%ing amazing, but would it be best for them to be in the main event immediately when even Jungle Boy, one of the golden children of the promotion, has been there since day one and isn't even at that level, either? I don't know, man, I meant what I said when I wrote that I get people being frustrated with the situation, because tons of minority communities deal with a lack of media visibility all the time and I fully get that "just wait, it's coming" sounds like bullshit after having to put up with it year after year. But creating narratives that AEW has an all-around "diversity problem", that Tony Khan is averse to pushing black wrestlers, or that we should just ignore what contracts are or who's actually available or who's got the name recognition or the instant audience credibility to jump right to the top of the card regardless of their background and create a story where "black wrestlers are avoiding AEW" based on absolutely nothing? I can't go with that. |
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,243
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Post by Mecca on Sept 11, 2021 18:11:59 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the context of where things are is that this same topic keeps getting brought up on here again and again, the "they're building up PoC talents, it's going to improve" argument keeps getting made, and to date we haven't really seen much difference in the onscreen product. I can't agree with your point that Impact and RoH's PoC talent has been locked down and unavailable. AEW didn't emerge from a vacuum; every big name they've got was working somewhere else when this started. Outside of Punk, every big name from the latest wave of signings was under contract elsewhere. We don't know the details of every individual talent negotiation AEW's engaged in, and we never will, but we sure can look at the pattern of who's ended up on their roster. The promotion's in its third year now, does it really make sense to call it a coincidence that the high profile signings who've joined the company without starting at the bottom have been almost exclusively white, especially when no other major televised promotion in the US right now has the same disparity? Either AEW isn't reaching out to PoC talent on par with their white hires as a priority, or the PoC talent they've reached out to have concluded that AEW isn't right for them. Neither scenario is a good look for the company. ...But they are locked down and unavailable. The guys they brought in at the start of the company were not locked into contracts elsewhere, or if they were they had contracts like MJF and Pillman had with MLW that let them work elsewhere for awhile; otherwise they would not have been allowed to sign with AEW, as per contract law. Was Cody supposed to go up to Delirious and say "Hey, I know you guys have Gresham under a deal and are angling to have him book the new women's division and lead a revival of the Pure title, but we really want him, so let us have him, k?" AEW is two years old: most of these guys are presumably under contracts of longer term than that, as almost none of them have, to the best of public knowledge, been free agents any time recently besides Moose and maybe (though it might've been kayfabe'd for the purpose of a storyline) Shane Taylor in ROH...for the record, the second Shane Taylor IS available, AEW and NJPW should be all over him, the guy is money. And no, I'll repeat again, it's not a coincidence that the guys who haven't had to start near the bottom have been white, because the established names in US pro wrestling are predominantly and disproportionately white and have been for literally decades. If AEW, a two year old startup with aims of being a major player on the level of WWE, is trying to build up a brand by getting established names to hook new fans in via their main event scene, then yes, they're going to draw from that well, which is why their initial main event scene was Jericho, Moxley, and Omega, and why someone like Brodie Lee got a featured spot when he debuted. Even guys like Cage and Archer who came over from Impact and NJPW at least were large enough to instantly be put over as major monster heel threats to Moxley while he was champion. And now in 2021 you've got Punk, Danielson, Black, Andrade, and Cole hitting the market, and I think everyone agrees AEW would be insane to pass on any of them. Again, I hate to put the onus out like this, but who was supposed to be the available black male wrestler over the past two years who was available on the market and who had the instant credibility with the larger-scale audience AEW was shooting for to be slotted into the main event scene immediately upon signing? Lashley and Keith Lee have the same size advantage that Archer and Cage have along with tons of skill and ability, but both were already under WWE contract. Ricochet is superhuman and just needs a featured spot to get over for the absolute marvel he is, but he was under WWE contract. New Day is a pop cultural merch-selling phenomenon the crowd rightly adores, but there's no way WWE was going to let them near the open market once their buddies were starting up a rival promotion. Jay Lethal is an established name and one of the best all-rounders out there, but he's been signed long-term with ROH. Most of the other names we can come up with wouldn't come in with immediate credibility with the audience to put them on par with Omega or Moxley, so they'd need time to be built up for the audience, as well...and most of them were already or are still under WWE contract (Strickland, Cedric, Rush, etc) or Impact/ROH contracts. So, in those two years, who was it going to be who'd come in and not need some time to be built up for the audience? Hobbs got some credibility very quickly, and his strength and power are a sight to behold (seriously, I adore the guy and DAMNIT, I WANT HIM TO BEAT MIRO), but he wasn't a known commodity at the start; and hell, they ARE building him up pretty quickly, given that he appears to be ticketed for a program with CM Punk, and already got to work with Sting for his own return. Would it have been another indie signing? If so, then again, who would it be? The only guy with instant name recognition, enough to not need much building up for the audience, to hit the market in the last year or so has been Lio Rush, and AEW signed him. Meanwhile in the last few months they made sure to ink Top Flight and Lee Moriarty because all three of those guys are @#$%ing amazing, but would it be best for them to be in the main event immediately when even Jungle Boy, one of the golden children of the promotion, has been there since day one and isn't even at that level, either? I don't know, man, I meant what I said when I wrote that I get people being frustrated with the situation, because tons of minority communities deal with a lack of media visibility all the time and I fully get that "just wait, it's coming" sounds like bullshit after having to put up with it year after year. But creating narratives that AEW has an all-around "diversity problem", that Tony Khan is averse to pushing black wrestlers, or that we should just ignore what contracts are or who's actually available or who's got the name recognition or the instant audience credibility to jump right to the top of the card regardless of their background and create a story where "black wrestlers are avoiding AEW" based on absolutely nothing? I can't go with that. This is how I feel about it too, AEW has been handed several marquee stars on a silver platter, they were all white. I can't fault them for grabbing the best talent available. I think if the WWE had released marquee black stars in their cuts, they'd have been signed. |
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