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Post by thechase on Apr 20, 2022 8:52:27 GMT -5
Thing that gets me is that due to the non-linear nature of the show you don't even have to have Jodie regenerate into David Tennant in order to bring him back. Just show some of his off-screen adventures that they alluded to. He apparently hopped around for decades or even centuries putting off the events of The End Of Time. You can set a series or two then. A lot of people would say those adventures dont matter, or have no drama, because we know he wont die. Not unless, to be extra cheeky, he keeps regenerating back into himself. Call it the 'vanity tour'
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Apr 20, 2022 9:42:22 GMT -5
I loved Tennant's Doctor, but I don't want to see him as 14. It seems to go against the show itself, which has always been about moving forward with someone new. I'm not a big fan of RTD coming back either, for that exact reason. I could go for some more adventures with 10 as a series of fun specials before a new actor was cast.
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Burst
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Post by Burst on Apr 20, 2022 9:53:26 GMT -5
Agreed, I love Tennant but it's definitely a regression IMO if you make him the 'new' Doctor. As much as I'm not a ginormous fan of franchises that seem unable to move forward and preoccupy themselves with prequels and interquels, mainline DW hasn't... really done that much, so I'd be perfectly okay with visiting some unseen 10 adventures without the commitment of it being "what happens next" if you will. They already hand-waved Doctors appearing older despite being "in their own time" through some Timey Wimey business when Davison came by that one time, plus Tennant was always the best at the anti-technobabble of that sort anyway, so if you're going to revisit any older Doctor he'd be the one to go with.
That being said, this may be a slight stretch of an analogy, but directly showing Jodie regenerating back into Tennant would IMO be as enabling to the toxic parts of the fandom as Star Wars quietly sweeping Rose out of the spotlight between Episodes VIII and IX was, and that's definitely not the part of the fandom you want to pander towards.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Apr 20, 2022 11:01:41 GMT -5
Even so it's been barely a decade since David last played the Doctor and he's hardly aged since. Give him a shave and some makeup touches and he'll be fine.
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Post by thechase on Apr 20, 2022 14:07:30 GMT -5
Agreed, I love Tennant but it's definitely a regression IMO if you make him the 'new' Doctor. As much as I'm not a ginormous fan of franchises that seem unable to move forward and preoccupy themselves with prequels and interquels, mainline DW hasn't... really done that much, so I'd be perfectly okay with visiting some unseen 10 adventures without the commitment of it being "what happens next" if you will. They already hand-waved Doctors appearing older despite being "in their own time" through some Timey Wimey business when Davison came by that one time, plus Tennant was always the best at the anti-technobabble of that sort anyway, so if you're going to revisit any older Doctor he'd be the one to go with. That being said, this may be a slight stretch of an analogy, but directly showing Jodie regenerating back into Tennant would IMO be as enabling to the toxic parts of the fandom as Star Wars quietly sweeping Rose out of the spotlight between Episodes VIII and IX was, and that's definitely not the part of the fandom you want to pander towards. Tennant coming back wouldn't be to appease the fandom menace, it's to appease the general public, most of which were watching during the show's imperial phase. RTD is thinking entirely about putting bums on seats for the 60th anniversary...what do you bank on? An untested new Doctor in the role, or a safety net of nostalgia that prepares an audience for a new series, a new time lord, and a new era, which will happen with the 2024 series. Jodie hasn't worked. You can't compare it to Star Wars. The show's been in steep ratings freefall since the second week of her first series, and it's never gotten the highs of her debut episode back, it hasn't attracted any audience outside of 'shippers on social media and nerds who binge-watch, and even then the latter hasn't drawn that much. AI Figures are at their lowest too. The ratings for the most recent episode, which touched on the twitter-backed "Thasmin" relationship, pulled in the lowest scores of not just the entire Nu Who era, but Doctor Who overall. Sylvester McCoy draws more than Jodie Whitaker. RTD may be a progressive writer, but he leads from the front, he understands the show is for everyone and he will cater to everyone, not just a small subsection of the socially conscious twitter sphere.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Apr 20, 2022 15:12:47 GMT -5
I do wish Doctor Who were actually as socially conscious as much as the loudest critics of the show currently claim it to be.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 20, 2022 15:36:47 GMT -5
Tbh if you had to think about what went wrong with Legend Of The Sea Devils, I'd probably point to:
- Including a classic monster that hasn't had the best track record (their only good story being primarily good because of Roger Delgado, otherwise it's just a more forgettable retread of The Silurians) and their whole deal kinda relies on the conflict of them having just as much right to the Earth as humans, which is perhaps why they're remembered fondly, but instead this cast them as straight up villains. - The fact it was produced on a shorter time frame and smaller budget, and was also affected by covid regulations, so what's meant to look like a sprawling pirate epic rarely had more than a few people in a scene. And that as it was basically a bonus episode to tide us over until the finale, there's very little drama to it. - That modern pirate based stories in Doctor Who always have the albatross of looking worse than Pirates Of The Caribbean, and there's never really been a good one in Who history, if we exclude The Pirate Planet which wasn't exactly the seaborne cliche.
But y'know, it's more likely all down to those pesky gay shippers, Twitter, and those few scenes that had any emotional resonance.
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Post by thechase on Apr 20, 2022 15:38:25 GMT -5
it's more likely all down to those pesky gay shippers and those few scenes that had any emotional resonance. Except it didn't, but 'shippers will never admit to that because 'muh representation'. They think Thasmin is perfect and has the bestest chemistry ever when there's nothing there, even when acknowledging it supposedly exists , through shoddy writing and worse line delivery. This isn't the fandom menace being 'phobes, this is people critiquing bad writing and acting when it is blatantly apparent on the screen. Compare these scenes to The Tenth and Rose in School Reunion, or Twelve and Clara in Hell Bent. They're on entirely different levels. It can never be the fault of exclusively the 'progressive elements', it always has to be spun to be everything else working against the episode. And that's true, everything has a part to play, but believe me, the 'representation' is just as much part of that package and it doesn't guarantee Joe Public's undivided attention.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 20, 2022 15:46:56 GMT -5
it's more likely all down to those pesky gay shippers and those few scenes that had any emotional resonance. Except it didn't, but 'shippers will never admit to that because 'muh representation'. They think Thasmin is perfect and has the bestest chemistry ever when there's nothing there, even when acknowledging it supposedly exists , through shoddy writing and worse line delivery. It can never be the fault of exclusively the 'progressive elements', it always has to be spun to be everything else working against the episode. And that's true, everything has a part to play, but believe me, the 'representation' is just as much part of that package and it doesn't guarantee Joe Public's undivided attention. 1. You are not the arbiter of chemistry or taste, this is a subjective thing. Other people can enjoy characters and their dynamics more than you. 2. 'Muh representation', really? Did we take a right turn onto 4chan?
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Apr 20, 2022 15:59:06 GMT -5
Honestly, the talk of the execution of representation and/or political themes on recent Who feels like it overshadows the more crucial point that Chibnall just isn't that strong a writer regardless. The pacing for stories is still hit & miss, various intriuging ideas go underexplored because they're seemingly there to be jangling keys for the audience, and characterization for the Doctor as well as companions feels lacking a lot of the time. Chibnall can go big, but it often feels like he can't go that deep, and the show's suffered for it.
As far as Tennant coming back, while they'd never do this given the potential backlash from returning viewers, part of me would love for this to be a feint. Shoot the scene in such a way so that it appears like he is indeed the 14th Doctor only for the twist to be that he's not the next Doctor... he's the next Master.
David's pulled off villainous roles before and if they're doing stunt casting to attract eyes, heck, at least it would be interesting.
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Post by eJm on Apr 20, 2022 16:00:28 GMT -5
As far as Tennant coming back, while they'd never do this given the potential backlash from returning viewers, part of me would love for this to be a feint. Shoot the scene in such a way so that it appears like he is indeed the 14th Doctor only for the twist to be that he's not the next Doctor... he's the next Master. David's pulled off villainous roles before and if they're doing stunt casting to attract eyes, heck, at least it would be interesting. I like this idea a lot.
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Burst
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Post by Burst on Apr 20, 2022 17:14:46 GMT -5
I'll third the idea of Tennant coming back with a twist because I'll always mark for Tennant in a villainous role; heck, now I want to see him as a variant (to use a Loki term) Time Lord Victorious. I also realized that while he's not quite Patrick Stewart levels of looking exactly the same, he still hasn't aged nearly as noticeably as say, Tom Baker did over his time as the Doctor.
I agree on the notion of getting eyes back on the product for the anniversary, and with the notion that established names will go over better especially with the audience having fallen off as much as it has. I also agree with the notion about Chibnall just not being a tremendously strong writer. Not everyone's cut out to be a showrunner, and with a show as long-running as Who has been there's always going to be a few misfires with writing direction.
I'm going to KFC Double Down on the Star Wars sequels comparison, because I feel like both the Star Wars sequels (TLJ and ROS in particular) and a lot of Chibnall's writing for Who (*cough* Timeless Child *cough*) relied a lot upon Big Moments (TM) to get your attention and get word of mouth going. Both certainly also saw a push for representation, which of course can also be used as a "Hey look at what we're doing!" tactic in lesser hands, but isn't inherently so despite what some folks might think. I'd argue that both the Star Wars and Doctor Who Big Moments (TM) ended up feeling like when you go to Golden Corral and all the food sounds good at first and everything tastes good at first but as soon as you stop and things start to digest, you realize it wasn't very satisfying and even though the street tacos and ravioli and Szechuan chicken all tasted good individually they really didn't go together well at all.
Like was said, it's a depth of writing thing. The big moments and the spectacle catches your eye, but the more you dwell on it, the more you pick up on things like pacing issues (don't get me started on the speed of plot in ROS), character development or the lack thereof, ignored Chekhov's guns or things that are mentioned to tease the audience but never resolved... You get the idea.
What does get on my nerves, though, is that any time you have an arguably weak writer/director running things concurrently with a push for representation and such, there's invariably a subgroup of fans that will blame any poor response/vanishing audience entirely on the representation instead of bad writing. Or they'll try to argue that the representation is somehow responsible for the bad writing and not just adjacent to it, if you will. I just feel like a lot of fans are particularly eager to throw out the representation baby with the bathwater when it comes to fixing a series that's been painted into a corner by bad writing.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Apr 20, 2022 17:50:43 GMT -5
What does get on my nerves, though, is that any time you have an arguably weak writer/director running things concurrently with a push for representation and such, there's invariably a subgroup of fans that will blame any poor response/vanishing audience entirely on the representation instead of bad writing. Or they'll try to argue that the representation is somehow responsible for the bad writing and not just adjacent to it, if you will. I just feel like a lot of fans are particularly eager to throw out the representation baby with the bathwater when it comes to fixing a series that's been painted into a corner by bad writing. And the fallibility of that belief is even further demonstrated by Big Finish. Now, BF certainly has its own issues and a tendency to repeat certain style stories, but they've managed representation and a diverse range of cast members while still keeping the narrative fairly strong. The 8th Doctor Stranded arc is very big on LGBTQ characters, all of whom work well because the central concept they're a part of is actually explored and given time to breathe. Tania specifically is someone that benefited from an audio format that gave her depth when I could easily see being trumpeted by the TV series as a groundbreaking addition only to then be underutilized because the show would then shift its attention onto the next big thing they're promoting. The biggest strike against current Who being aggressively political is that its execution is often so shallow that it's not really aggressively anything except attention getting.
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Post by Sir Woodrow on Apr 20, 2022 20:53:49 GMT -5
If Tennant returns then his regeneration from Jodie needs to have him seeing his reflection and giving out the loudest, most confused "WHAT?" ever
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Post by thatloser on Apr 21, 2022 7:30:43 GMT -5
This debating if David Tennant should be a new regination or not has reminded me that the show itself kinda answered if The Doctor can regenerate into a past face. Back in The Day Of The Doctor where The Curator (As you well know is very much hinted at being a future version of the Doctor with an older version of a old face) tell the Doctor when he recognises his face, and says I never forget a face "I know you don't. And in years to come, you might find yourself revisiting a few.... But just the old favourites, eh?"
The only thing I want if that's the case is for David not to play The Doctor as he did before. I mean the Doctor acts different with each regination, and if they do the who revisiting a few old faces thing (Even if it just happens the once). I want the Doctor to act different as while it's a the same face it's still a different regination, and it feels pointless to go hey look it's 10 again, nothing different but he just get's to be 14 too
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Apr 23, 2022 16:51:00 GMT -5
Absolute troll pick, but imagine if it's Billie Piper.
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Post by thechase on Apr 24, 2022 1:12:47 GMT -5
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Post by Hot Noodle Truck on Apr 24, 2022 1:32:17 GMT -5
As far as Tennant coming back, while they'd never do this given the potential backlash from returning viewers, part of me would love for this to be a feint. Shoot the scene in such a way so that it appears like he is indeed the 14th Doctor only for the twist to be that he's not the next Doctor... he's the next Master. David's pulled off villainous roles before and if they're doing stunt casting to attract eyes, heck, at least it would be interesting. I like this idea a lot. Agreed completely. Tennant as The Master would be f***ing brilliant.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Apr 24, 2022 3:17:47 GMT -5
Absolute troll pick, but imagine if it's Billie Piper. Even better... Just reverse the line--"I'm Clara, but you can call me the Doctor."
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Post by thechase on May 4, 2022 4:14:31 GMT -5
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