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Post by Heart of fools gold on Oct 1, 2021 10:24:10 GMT -5
Durability is all well and good but it really means nothing if it doesn't translate to wins. And Eli with his .500 record didn't do that. Like I said take away Eli's rings and he's a meh QB with a good family name and nothing else. to me, saying "oh sure this guy lead a team to a superbowl but he wasn't actually that great for... reasons" is the height of moving goalposts. Alexandre Daigle is the Ryan Leaf of Hockey. he's only famous for being the biggest draft bust in NHL history. Trent Dillfer led and won a SB doesn't make him a good QB. Winning a ring shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to deciding if a player is great. And by pure stats Eli is an average QB with 2 good post seasons to four 1 and done playoffs. It's the same argument against Hollywood Joe and no one comes to his aid. So call it moving goal posts all you want but my argument still stands, take away the rings and he's nothing special, unlike his brother who you can actually argue is a GOAT
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Oct 1, 2021 11:23:58 GMT -5
to me, saying "oh sure this guy lead a team to a superbowl but he wasn't actually that great for... reasons" is the height of moving goalposts. Alexandre Daigle is the Ryan Leaf of Hockey. he's only famous for being the biggest draft bust in NHL history. Trent Dillfer led and won a SB doesn't make him a good QB. Winning a ring shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to deciding if a player is great. And by pure stats Eli is an average QB with 2 good post seasons to four 1 and done playoffs. It's the same argument against Hollywood Joe and no one comes to his aid. So call it moving goal posts all you want but my argument still stands, take away the rings and he's nothing special, unlike his brother who you can actually argue is a GOAT I dunno, to me it just comes off as really diminishing his accomplishments. It's like saying Martin Brodeur isn't the best goalie of all time just because he had an insanely strong defensive core in front of him.
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Post by Heart of fools gold on Oct 1, 2021 11:48:17 GMT -5
Trent Dillfer led and won a SB doesn't make him a good QB. Winning a ring shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to deciding if a player is great. And by pure stats Eli is an average QB with 2 good post seasons to four 1 and done playoffs. It's the same argument against Hollywood Joe and no one comes to his aid. So call it moving goal posts all you want but my argument still stands, take away the rings and he's nothing special, unlike his brother who you can actually argue is a GOAT I dunno, to me it just comes off as really diminishing his accomplishments. It's like saying Martin Brodeur isn't the best goalie of all time just because he had an insanely strong defensive core in front of him. Plenty of great players never won it all while there tons of of average to bad players who have. Being able to win it all is the culmination of the whole team which is why I think when you discuss players champion success it should be viewed as more like extra credit then the whole test. Post season success can sometimes be very fluky, especially in football where there is only 1 game as opposed to the rest of the north american major 4 sports. Which can lead to teams making and winning it all that in all honesty probably had no right to. It's why you should judge the player for what they accomplished and not what the team did. Sure, sometimes it goes hand and hand like when LBJ single handedly beat Golden State or when he carried that awful 07 cavs team to the finals. That's the difference if you want to compare championship success, did the player elevate the team or where they carried by the team. Eli for the majority of his career was carried not carrying
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Post by sfvega on Oct 1, 2021 13:51:10 GMT -5
I dunno, to me it just comes off as really diminishing his accomplishments. It's like saying Martin Brodeur isn't the best goalie of all time just because he had an insanely strong defensive core in front of him. Plenty of great players never won it all while there tons of of average to bad players who have. Being able to win it all is the culmination of the whole team which is why I think when you discuss players champion success it should be viewed as more like extra credit then the whole test. Post season success can sometimes be very fluky, especially in football where there is only 1 game as opposed to the rest of the north american major 4 sports. Which can lead to teams making and winning it all that in all honesty probably had no right to. It's why you should judge the player for what they accomplished and not what the team did. Sure, sometimes it goes hand and hand like when LBJ single handedly beat Golden State or when he carried that awful 07 cavs team to the finals. That's the difference if you want to compare championship success, did the player elevate the team or where they carried by the team. Eli for the majority of his career was carried not carrying I think you just need to admit that you have a negative bias towards Eli. I don't think anyone is painting Eli as carrying his teams the way Peyton did. But he has 2 rings, he went to 4 Pro Bowls, and you're trying to paint him as dead weight most of the time. Your posts say more about your POV than they do about Eli. At the end of the day, Eli is an above average QB who played great in many big moments. You can't really take that away from him.
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Post by Heart of fools gold on Oct 1, 2021 14:20:20 GMT -5
Plenty of great players never won it all while there tons of of average to bad players who have. Being able to win it all is the culmination of the whole team which is why I think when you discuss players champion success it should be viewed as more like extra credit then the whole test. Post season success can sometimes be very fluky, especially in football where there is only 1 game as opposed to the rest of the north american major 4 sports. Which can lead to teams making and winning it all that in all honesty probably had no right to. It's why you should judge the player for what they accomplished and not what the team did. Sure, sometimes it goes hand and hand like when LBJ single handedly beat Golden State or when he carried that awful 07 cavs team to the finals. That's the difference if you want to compare championship success, did the player elevate the team or where they carried by the team. Eli for the majority of his career was carried not carrying I think you just need to admit that you have a negative bias towards Eli. I don't think anyone is painting Eli as carrying his teams the way Peyton did. But he has 2 rings, he went to 4 Pro Bowls, and you're trying to paint him as dead weight most of the time. Your posts say more about your POV than they do about Eli. At the end of the day, Eli is an above average QB who played great in many big moments. You can't really take that away from him. 4 pro bowls in 15 seasons, 6 trips to the post season while being bounced immediately 4 times, and an exactly. 500 winning %. Idk none of that says "above average" but you do you he won you 2 rings and that'll always be true but don't act like me claiming Eli is overrated isn't a valid argument
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Post by sfvega on Oct 1, 2021 14:41:58 GMT -5
I think you just need to admit that you have a negative bias towards Eli. I don't think anyone is painting Eli as carrying his teams the way Peyton did. But he has 2 rings, he went to 4 Pro Bowls, and you're trying to paint him as dead weight most of the time. Your posts say more about your POV than they do about Eli. At the end of the day, Eli is an above average QB who played great in many big moments. You can't really take that away from him. 4 pro bowls in 15 seasons, 6 trips to the post season while being bounced immediately 4 times, and an exactly. 500 winning %. Idk none of that says "above average" but you do you he won you 2 rings and that'll always be true but don't act like me claiming Eli is overrated isn't a valid argument Well, yeah if you think average QBs start for 15 years in the NFL. Do you think the average NFL QB goes to 4 Pro Bowls? When I think of the most average QB I can think of, I think of Aaron Brooks. Also, isn't it funny how you change the goalposts on team accomplishments? When they win the Super Bowl, it's a team accomplishment that Eli got carried to and when they lose in the 1st round, it's not on the defense or the run game? Also, Dan Marino went 0-1 three times in the playoffs. Him and Dan Fouts have losing records in the playoffs. Does that mean they aren't great, HOF QBs? Warren Moon did it 4 times as well. Don't act like this is just a thing that only happens to especially shitty QBs. Honestly, Eli got the overrated tag for so long at one point in his career that I think he's rated accurately. I don't think anyone thinks of Eli as an elite QB. Which again makes your post seem like just a general personal dislike of the guy rather than a critique of his all-time status, which I think is relatively fair and agreed upon. Even in people disagreeing with your post, no one is claiming him to be this amazing, unstoppable QB. Just that he's better than you in particular are giving him credit for.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 1, 2021 16:10:59 GMT -5
4 pro bowls in 15 seasons, 6 trips to the post season while being bounced immediately 4 times, and an exactly. 500 winning %. Idk none of that says "above average" but you do you he won you 2 rings and that'll always be true but don't act like me claiming Eli is overrated isn't a valid argument Well, yeah if you think average QBs start for 15 years in the NFL. Do you think the average NFL QB goes to 4 Pro Bowls? When I think of the most average QB I can think of, I think of Aaron Brooks. Also, isn't it funny how you change the goalposts on team accomplishments? When they win the Super Bowl, it's a team accomplishment that Eli got carried to and when they lose in the 1st round, it's not on the defense or the run game? Also, Dan Marino went 0-1 three times in the playoffs. Him and Dan Fouts have losing records in the playoffs. Does that mean they aren't great, HOF QBs? Warren Moon did it 4 times as well. Don't act like this is just a thing that only happens to especially shitty QBs. Honestly, Eli got the overrated tag for so long at one point in his career that I think he's rated accurately. I don't think anyone thinks of Eli as an elite QB. Which again makes your post seem like just a general personal dislike of the guy rather than a critique of his all-time status, which I think is relatively fair and agreed upon. Even in people disagreeing with your post, no one is claiming him to be this amazing, unstoppable QB. Just that he's better than you in particular are giving him credit for. Eli is rated accurately as you said His biggest issue is not making it to the big moments often but when he did he made it count and is the blemish on Brady's crazy record. We've seen guys like Joe Flacco win and get massively overrated but Eli more than held his own over the year To even try to compare him and Dilfer is laughably stupid
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Post by sfvega on Oct 1, 2021 16:56:59 GMT -5
Well, yeah if you think average QBs start for 15 years in the NFL. Do you think the average NFL QB goes to 4 Pro Bowls? When I think of the most average QB I can think of, I think of Aaron Brooks. Also, isn't it funny how you change the goalposts on team accomplishments? When they win the Super Bowl, it's a team accomplishment that Eli got carried to and when they lose in the 1st round, it's not on the defense or the run game? Also, Dan Marino went 0-1 three times in the playoffs. Him and Dan Fouts have losing records in the playoffs. Does that mean they aren't great, HOF QBs? Warren Moon did it 4 times as well. Don't act like this is just a thing that only happens to especially shitty QBs. Honestly, Eli got the overrated tag for so long at one point in his career that I think he's rated accurately. I don't think anyone thinks of Eli as an elite QB. Which again makes your post seem like just a general personal dislike of the guy rather than a critique of his all-time status, which I think is relatively fair and agreed upon. Even in people disagreeing with your post, no one is claiming him to be this amazing, unstoppable QB. Just that he's better than you in particular are giving him credit for. Eli is rated accurately as you said His biggest issue is not making it to the big moments often but when he did he made it count and is the blemish on Brady's crazy record. We've seen guys like Joe Flacco win and get massively overrated but Eli more than held his own over the year To even try to compare him and Dilfer is laughably stupid Yeah, Eli is pretty comfortably above guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Phil Simms, etc but probably a step below guys like Troy Aikman, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. Without the big postseasons, he'd probably be like around a Matt Hasselbeck.
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Post by karl100589 on Oct 1, 2021 17:20:05 GMT -5
Paige VanZant would be a decent shout. At one point she was Womens MMA’s second biggest star after Ronda; headlining big drawing TV cards and having several successful endorsement deals and reality tv ventures. This despite an 8-5 record with her biggest win being Felice Herrig.
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unc40
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,625
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Post by unc40 on Oct 2, 2021 16:20:16 GMT -5
Lynn Swann never put up great numbers but got a lot of attention because of a couple of spectacular catches in the Super Bowl. He wasn't even the best receiver on those Steelers teams John Stallworth was.
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Post by Gopher Mod on Oct 2, 2021 16:58:38 GMT -5
This one might be a bit strange, but what about Bob Eucker? Career batting average at the Mendoza Line, strictly okay as a fielder, but was able to turn it around and have a 50 year broadcasting career for the Brewers.
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Post by Triangle Lancer on Oct 4, 2021 19:47:19 GMT -5
This one might be a bit strange, but what about Bob Eucker? Career batting average at the Mendoza Line, strictly okay as a fielder, but was able to turn it around and have a 50 year broadcasting career for the Brewers. Nice call. There are quite a few announcers that were pretty awful players. Bob was fined for borrowing a tuba from a visiting band, and fielding fungoes with it. Was also charged the price of a new tuba. Bob's HOF speech was like a roast of the crowd: "I hit a home run and a double off of Sandy Koufax. That alone should have kept him out of the HOF." "Half the guys over there were my teammates but none of them will admit it." "I didn't realize I was released from the Braves until (manager) Charlie Driessen told me 'Hey, no visitors in the clubhouse!' " "I was signed by the Braves for $500, which made my father angry. But he eventually scraped up the cash..."
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bob
Salacious Crumb
The "other" Bob. FOC COURSE!
started the Madness Wars, Proudly the #1 Nana Hater on FAN
Posts: 78,273
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Post by bob on Oct 10, 2021 18:35:53 GMT -5
Jeff George
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Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
Own Nothing, Be Happy
Posts: 6,304
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Post by Sam Punk on Oct 10, 2021 20:26:08 GMT -5
Julian Edelman
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,454
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Post by r. on Oct 19, 2021 12:19:22 GMT -5
Caitlyn Jenner
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,021
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Oct 20, 2021 3:33:12 GMT -5
I dunno, gold in an Olympic decathalon with a world record and holding the US record for it for 15 years.... pretty good going.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,277
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Post by Push R Truth on Oct 20, 2021 7:17:09 GMT -5
Greg Odun. #1 Pick in the draft. Heralded college player. Surefire NBA Superstar.
Also a 50 year old looking man playing in an 80 year old body and being 20 years old doing all of jack crap as a professional. For a #1 pick he had 1 single year where he averaged double digit points (11) but his entire career was basically being a broken down bum.
And the cherry on top of the sundae is he was arrested for punching his girlfriend in the face.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,454
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Post by r. on Oct 20, 2021 8:35:49 GMT -5
I dunno, gold in an Olympic decathalon with a world record and holding the US record for it for 15 years.... pretty good going. Worst for non-sports (Actually kinda sports) reasons.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,021
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Oct 20, 2021 8:39:49 GMT -5
I dunno, gold in an Olympic decathalon with a world record and holding the US record for it for 15 years.... pretty good going. Worst for non-sports (Actually kinda sports) reasons. Considering the number of murderers and rapists, non sports reasons would be a whole different thread.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,454
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Post by r. on Oct 20, 2021 9:46:30 GMT -5
Worst for non-sports (Actually kinda sports) reasons. Considering the number of murderers and rapists, non sports reasons would be a whole different thread. It's kinda both as one non-political thing she's done is strongly advocate against transgendered people playing in the sport of their gender identity, But it's tied to her horrid political stances.
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