|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Oct 19, 2021 18:05:21 GMT -5
Bruising can happen if you run the ropes wrong. Brushing happens in matches. I mean dude worked the whole Crown Jewel battle royal with a chest the color of a tomato, that's just how he comes out of matches. The cut, yeah that one was a little snug, but honestly I don't think it was a huge deal. They're both professionals and they seem like they're the kind of people who know just how much to deal out to another wrestler. Wrestlers from Japan can be notoriously stiff, it's just the style. That doesn't mean dudes are bad at wrestling, just the style. I remember Jericho realizing that in his book and adjusting appropriately. Indeed, and it's one of the few things I tend to disagree with Bret Hart on: so long as both guys in a match go in prepared for stiff shots, agree to them, and are talented enough to deliver them safely, it absolutely can add to a match. Bret's always been right that the top goal a wrestler should have is to never injure an opponent, but yeah, pain =/= injury, and things like forearm exchanges can contribute to really strong in-ring stories. |
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Oct 19, 2021 20:22:27 GMT -5
It was a counter to the original post, because if Minoru Suzuki (or any well trained fighter) hit someone as hard as they can with unopposed shots to the jaw, it would be lights out, not an entertaining duel. But if you really want to say that Minoru Suzuki, a man who has been wrestling professionally since 1988, who was one of the last students of the legendary Karl Gotch and who was one of the literal inventors of shoot-style (I.E. the art of making worked fights look real) can't work then I'm sorry, I don't know if you're being facetious, lazy or just plain ignorant. I want to say that? That's news to me. Perhaps you can show me where I said that Minoru Suzuki can't work. Also you can show me at the same time what I said to you that justified you calling me "facetious, lazy or just plain ignorant". I'm curious why it offends you so much when somebody says that "a great wrestler ideally shouldn't hurt their opponent" that you feel compelled both to misrepresent their position and then insult them. |
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Oct 19, 2021 20:34:57 GMT -5
We need to use the word "injury" more carefully here. In wrestling an injury is Stone Cold at Summerslam '97 or when HHH tore his quads. A cut cheek is rougher than usual, but Danielson wasn't injured. He wrestled the next night. And I'm not always a fan of stiff matches either, but this was a great match that happened to be stiff. Bryan did indeed wrestle the next night. Here's an interesting thing Bryan Danielson also did: Wrestled for months with an injury that (in no small part due to his continuing to wrestle with it) would end his career for years, never telling anyone about it, and doing some awfully stupid things in so doing (as was widely recognised here at the time it all came out). He could barely lift the title belts he won at Wrestlemania but kept it to himself. So forgive me for thinking it is not an open and shut case that "Bryan wrestled the next night, so ergo there was no chance whatsoever anything bad happened when somebody hit his face with an elbow so hard it opened a cut on his cheek". Oh, BTW, Suzuki himself needed seven stitches in his head after that also presumably totally harmless stiff match he had with Mox and was bleeding from the eyelid, definitely not at all an indicator that things could have gone ever so slightly differently and led to a much worse outcome. |
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Oct 19, 2021 20:41:12 GMT -5
Wrestlers from Japan can be notoriously stiff, it's just the style. That doesn't mean dudes are bad at wrestling, just the style. I remember Jericho realizing that in his book and adjusting appropriately. Yes it is. So is abusing trainees. Neither should be immune to criticism because "it's Japan". It doesn't make them bad at wrestling; far from it, there are many great Japanese wrestlers, obviously. But they are not great because they work stiff. It is not a necessary part of what they do any more than it is for wrestlers anywhere else. |
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,273 
|
Post by The Ichi on Oct 19, 2021 21:13:44 GMT -5
Yeah, okay. I think you're overreacting and we're running in circles here.
|
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Oct 19, 2021 22:02:10 GMT -5
Yeah, okay. I think you're overreacting and we're running in circles here. Honestly, I don't think so? Viking Hall's post annoyed me because it gratuitously insulted me, but I just think you're using a bad argument. I think that it's pretty likely Bryan wasn't hurt in a serious way by that. I also think that if he had gotten hurt by it that there's a decent chance he would've wrestled the next night anyway. So him wrestling the next night doesn't really prove much. More to the point, my whole argument is that working stiff increases the chances of injuring people and that whatever arguable benefit it has to match quality does not outweigh that (also that it's a part of an overcompensating macho wrestling culture that also leads to abusing trainees in both Japan and America, etc). What happens in one match isn't really the issue there: it's what the entire culture of lionising working stiff does. |
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,020
|
Post by Mozenrath on Oct 19, 2021 22:11:57 GMT -5
I'd never seen a cheekbone split before that I can recall, but it makes sense, I guess, since it operates on the same principle as the eyebrow split that Foley talked about in either Have a Nice Day or Foley is Good that he'd never managed to perfect. Basically, someone striking their opponent to where the skin, in an area without a lot of fat or muscle underneath it and an angle of bone, causes the skin to split. It's something that, to my understanding, looks much gnarlier than it actually is and is pretty easily stitched up. Amusingly in a morbid sort of way, Foley on more than one occasion was going to have Harley Race do it to him, only to already be busted open by Vader by then, causing Harley to swear that the deed had been done already, and Foley joking that he should have drove out to Harley's place and just let him do it once to make good on a promise.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2021 22:44:35 GMT -5
More to the point, my whole argument is that working stiff increases the chances of injuring people and that whatever arguable benefit it has to match quality does not outweigh that (also that it's a part of an overcompensating macho wrestling culture that also leads to abusing trainees in both Japan and America, etc). What happens in one match isn't really the issue there: it's what the entire culture of lionising working stiff does. Working stiff can absolutely lead to injury if wrestlers are being stupid about it - look at what happened with Shibata or Nigel, all due respect to them both - but on the whole, it's pretty far down the list of dangerous aspects of pro wrestling. You're much more likely to get injured from high spots (be they head-drops, death matches, or what-have-you), grueling road schedules, or being in the ring with a reckless opponent than you are from getting hit hard in a safe place. |
|
|
|
Post by Viking Hall on Oct 20, 2021 2:40:33 GMT -5
Viking Hall's post annoyed me because it gratuitously insulted me. I apologise for insulting you, however I was also quite annoyed that you took my initial post and did a complete 180 on its meaning and then proceeded to double down despite multiple people explaining what I meant to you. We're clearly not going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine, but I do think that Suzuki's track record in a 30+ year career speaks for itself and therefore probably doesn't need me (or anyone else) fighting his corner either. |
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Oct 20, 2021 3:36:27 GMT -5
I apologise for insulting you, however I was also quite annoyed that you took my initial post and did a complete 180 on its meaning and then proceeded to double down despite multiple people explaining what I meant to you. We're clearly not going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine, but I do think that Suzuki's track record in a 30+ year career speaks for itself and therefore probably doesn't need me (or anyone else) fighting his corner either. Yes, I misunderstood your apparent meaning. Once it was explained that you were only referring to the literal "hit as hard as you can" phrasing, I continued arguing the same point I had earlier in this thread (and elsewhere). You know, apologies ring truer when they don't attach little riders to them implying the recipient brought it on themselves by "doubling down", uh, on the same argument I was making before you even posted in the first place, I guess? I didn't keep arguing the same misunderstanding of your original post. And I would have happily apologised to you for said misunderstanding if you hadn't belittled me, insulted me and made up a ridiculous strawman argument and ascribed it to me. Hell, I'll still do it: I apologise for misreading your original post. I shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion you were making such a crazy argument. That was my bad, certainly. {Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}...but you totally brought it on yourself by having "Viking" in your name. I mean obviously what else was I supposed to think |
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Oct 20, 2021 9:09:20 GMT -5
More to the point, my whole argument is that working stiff increases the chances of injuring people and that whatever arguable benefit it has to match quality does not outweigh that (also that it's a part of an overcompensating macho wrestling culture that also leads to abusing trainees in both Japan and America, etc). What happens in one match isn't really the issue there: it's what the entire culture of lionising working stiff does. Working stiff can absolutely lead to injury if wrestlers are being stupid about it - look at what happened with Shibata or Nigel, all due respect to them both - but on the whole, it's pretty far down the list of dangerous aspects of pro wrestling. You're much more likely to get injured from high spots (be they head-drops, death matches, or what-have-you), grueling road schedules, or being in the ring with a reckless opponent than you are from getting hit hard in a safe place. I think being stiff with head shots is pretty high up on the list of egregious things. A guy like Danielson who literally had to retire due to concussions gains nothing by getting busted open hardway with an elbow to the face. Subconcussive hits are a big deal. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 9:55:45 GMT -5
I think being stiff with head shots is pretty high up on the list of egregious things. A guy like Danielson who literally had to retire due to concussions gains nothing by getting busted open hardway with an elbow to the face. Subconcussive hits are a big deal. Bryan got several snug forearm shots to the face, one of which gave him a superficial cut on his cheek. There's a world of difference between that and, say, Brock Lesnar teeing off on Randy Orton with the specific intent to bust him open hardway, or Goldberg just straight-up kicking Bret Hart in the face. |
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Oct 20, 2021 10:52:42 GMT -5
I think being stiff with head shots is pretty high up on the list of egregious things. A guy like Danielson who literally had to retire due to concussions gains nothing by getting busted open hardway with an elbow to the face. Subconcussive hits are a big deal. Bryan got several snug forearm shots to the face, one of which gave him a superficial cut on his cheek. There's a world of difference between that and, say, Brock Lesnar teeing off on Randy Orton with the specific intent to bust him open hardway, or Goldberg just straight-up kicking Bret Hart in the face. Yes those ended up giving guys straight up concussions (although one was accidentally, one was purposefully).. This could have caused a concussion and even if it didn’t it has a very good chance of being a subconcussive hit which can have a terrible cumulative impact over a career. It’s really not necessary at all to the match. Stiff chops and things of that nature are whatever, but trying to give “snug” or “stiff” head shots is not smart. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 10:57:34 GMT -5
Yes those ended up giving guys straight up concussions (although one was accidentally, one was purposefully).. This could have caused a concussion and even if it didn’t it has a very good chance of being a subconcussive hit which can have a terrible cumulative impact over a career. It’s really not necessary at all to the match. Stiff chops and things of that nature are whatever, but trying to give “snug” or “stiff” head shots is not smart. I dunno, I don't find it anymore reckless than WALTER murdering guys with chops. I was way more worried with Bryan taking that apron German Suplex from Nick Jackson a couple weeks ago than I was about the Suzuki strike exchange but to each their own I guess. |
|
khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,564
|
Post by khali on Oct 20, 2021 10:59:48 GMT -5
I liked it better when we were appreciating the match.
|
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Oct 20, 2021 11:37:50 GMT -5
I liked it better when we were appreciating the match. The match was fantastic. I posted as much right after watching. But people handwaving the potentially reckless spots is a little much. |
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 20, 2021 11:43:19 GMT -5
Deliberately working stiff in a fake sport is stupid and if that makes me not a proper wrestling fan then so be it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 14:15:27 GMT -5
That elbow legit cracked him in the cheekbone. Not only was it cut, you could see it swelling. That was brutal That was definitely the moment where I thought “Jesus…Bryan. I know you love this shit but don’t forget you’re probably one more concussion away from losing it. Again.” I feel the same way any time that Bryan does a diving headbutt. He's so good, those spots aren't necessary to create a compelling wrestling match. |
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on Oct 20, 2021 14:24:12 GMT -5
I thought the whole point of appreciation threads was to not have this kind of incessant bickering.
|
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Oct 20, 2021 14:25:07 GMT -5
Ok, let’s move on from this. If people want to talk about it separately, feel free to make another thread.
|
|
