Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,419
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Post by Abdullah on Nov 25, 2021 7:33:49 GMT -5
I don’t think of it as a question of who won—although, undoubtedly, it’s Punk. It’s more that MJF needs something. If he’s gonna be the guy to carry the company, at any point, he needs more than one layer. Excellent delivery, great wrestling skills. Even then, though. A rich dude that insults local towns. Is that all there is?
For all the talk of “lesser Miz”, Miz developed a character and a history that he brought to feuds when needed. Max hasn’t yet. Go back and listen to MJF’s promo against Jungle Boy for their PPV match. It is so much different, and better, than most of MJF’s stuff lately.
This feud needs to make MJF grow beyond his exceptionally one-note character, as much as I like the guy.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 25, 2021 7:56:37 GMT -5
I think a key thing to remember is that MJF and CM Punk are not really *meant* to be similar kinds of talkers. Some of the reasons why were brought up last night: MJF drove home "I'm everything you hate in pro wrestling", since he's a rich, entitled prodigy who waltzed onto the national scene in his early 20s, unlike Punk's blue collar background that involved escaping from a toxic home environment and having to overcome not being a natural athlete to get to the level that he eventually reached.
But that ties into the other reasons they're not the same kinds of talkers: MJF is meant to be a person with essentially no redeeming qualities, and he relishes being that spoiled douchebag we've all run into at one time or another. Punk, while being heel for much of his career, was still always someone who came off as being driven by his convictions, even if they were misplaced or extreme, and ultimately there haven't been many times when we, as a viewing audience, have been asked to legitimately *hate* the character of CM Punk. Hell, much of his WWE run, even when he was a bad guy, still revolved that sense of "he deserves more than he's getting". MJF doesn't want that, so he isn't going to speak in a way that invites it.
If MJF has parallels with anyone in the wrestling industry on the stick, it's Jay White: White might not be depicted as a rich kid, but he's a ridiculously talented young wrestler with accolades coming out his ear, who will absolutely try to dissect you by hitting your rawest nerve and attacking the "lowest hanging fruit" because he is an asshole, and he makes no bones about it, nor does he hide the fact that being an asshole absolutely helps him in his quest for success in his career. Of all the AEW/NJPW crossovers that could really work on the mic, that's the one I'd most want to see, just two irredeemable pricks seeing who can be the bigger douchecanoe.
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Dang!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,275
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Post by Dang! on Nov 25, 2021 8:22:51 GMT -5
There were WAY too many WWE references in that battle for my taste. I expected the obvious UFC reference and it HAD to be done otherwise Punk look like a very thin-skinned frail ego-type like the one they also mentioned in their battle. Leaving that out would scream "OH NOES! I CANNOT LOOK WEAK!". However, there was no need to mention all the WWE guys even though they were (kinda) buried. It's not a good thing for a babyface to put a lesser guy from the other company over your opponent.
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Here, have some chili dogs
Not related to Phantasmo
Posts: 15,678
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Nov 25, 2021 8:39:29 GMT -5
Just now watching the show. MJF is like a good nice quality skillet, CM Punk is like grandma's cast iron skillet. This feud is about bringing MJF up to CM Punk's level. So that one day a young upstart gonna be in MJF's current position, and MJF is gonna be in Punks position. And even then Old CM Punk will still be able to flame them both. Lol.
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on Nov 25, 2021 9:36:05 GMT -5
Just saw it now. Rewatched it because I loved it. I thought both guys were excellent. Can't wait to see where they go - gimme more of that!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 9:40:43 GMT -5
"Less famous Miz" is a legendary burn but let's not legitimately act like MJF isn't superior to Miz in every single way, because he absolutely is. Miz was mildly interesting as a character in late 2016 but the dude has ****ing sucked for the vast, vast majority of his career, with three noteworthy matches and two noteworthy promos in a 16-years-and-counting run.
Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
Anyway, as I mentioned in the Rate the Dynamite thread, this was an all-time segment. Unbelievable promo work from both men.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,053
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Nov 25, 2021 9:56:13 GMT -5
I don’t think of it as a question of who won—although, undoubtedly, it’s Punk. It’s more that MJF needs something. If he’s gonna be the guy to carry the company, at any point, he needs more than one layer. Excellent delivery, great wrestling skills. Even then, though. A rich dude that insults local towns. Is that all there is? For all the talk of “lesser Miz”, Miz developed a character and a history that he brought to feuds when needed. Max hasn’t yet. Go back and listen to MJF’s promo against Jungle Boy for their PPV match. It is so much different, and better, than most of MJF’s stuff lately. This feud needs to make MJF grow beyond his exceptionally one-note character, as much as I like the guy. MJF needs to show more emotional vulnerability/insecurity, that there's a weak point you can "get to him" with. Yeah, yeah, I know, "Better than you and you know it", But in 2021 wrestling, you're not hitting that "Next Level" believability when there's nothing authentic for fans to connect to, even as a heel.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Nov 25, 2021 10:11:16 GMT -5
This was f***ing wonderful.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Nov 25, 2021 10:43:54 GMT -5
I'm the minority here, but I thought MJF was the better of the two. Such a perfect heel, also funny as hell. Regardless, Punk got the last laughs in the end like he should, as he is the good guy after all. I sat thru the whole 20 minutes listening every word from them, ' loved the segment. "Your whole career, you've been nothing but the second best. ~ Whatever it was the you can't see me man or the king of kings. ~ I can assure you now that you're standing IN MY RING, IN MY COMPANY, things will be no different. ~ You may claim you're best in the world... but I'm better than you, AND YOU KNOW IT!" felt such a truthful line. MJF's been one of the #1 guys in the ring and on the mic from the get go and only getting stronger as the years pass. I want to agree with all of this up to the “I’m better than you...and you know it” delivery. Internally, I was thinking he should have said that much more truthfully/matter-of-factly than with such “oomph” and force but AGAIN, that kind of beautifully plays into this loud-mouth character trying too hard with the guy who doesn’t have to try at all. Ughhh I love this program lol. I don’t think of it as a question of who won—although, undoubtedly, it’s Punk. It’s more that MJF needs something. If he’s gonna be the guy to carry the company, at any point, he needs more than one layer. Excellent delivery, great wrestling skills. Even then, though. A rich dude that insults local towns. Is that all there is? For all the talk of “lesser Miz”, Miz developed a character and a history that he brought to feuds when needed. Max hasn’t yet. Go back and listen to MJF’s promo against Jungle Boy for their PPV match. It is so much different, and better, than most of MJF’s stuff lately. This feud needs to make MJF grow beyond his exceptionally one-note character, as much as I like the guy. MJF needs to show more emotional vulnerability/insecurity, that there's a weak point you can "get to him" with. Yeah, yeah, I know, "Better than you and you know it", But in 2021 wrestling, you're not hitting that "Next Level" believability when there's nothing authentic for fans to connect to, even as a heel. That’s exactly what I continue to think MJF has to do during this feud. This is when cracks should form. It could evolve the character. Think you’re 100% spot on about him needing to show vulnerability.
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Post by Hypnosis on Nov 25, 2021 11:25:25 GMT -5
I don’t think of it as a question of who won—although, undoubtedly, it’s Punk. It’s more that MJF needs something. If he’s gonna be the guy to carry the company, at any point, he needs more than one layer. Excellent delivery, great wrestling skills. Even then, though. A rich dude that insults local towns. Is that all there is? For all the talk of “lesser Miz”, Miz developed a character and a history that he brought to feuds when needed. Max hasn’t yet. Go back and listen to MJF’s promo against Jungle Boy for their PPV match. It is so much different, and better, than most of MJF’s stuff lately. This feud needs to make MJF grow beyond his exceptionally one-note character, as much as I like the guy. MJF needs to show more emotional vulnerability/insecurity, that there's a weak point you can "get to him" with. Yeah, yeah, I know, "Better than you and you know it", But in 2021 wrestling, you're not hitting that "Next Level" believability when there's nothing authentic for fans to connect to, even as a heel. Punk to MJF in the future:"Why'd you combine my catchphrase with Zack Ryder's?"
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Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,419
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Post by Abdullah on Nov 25, 2021 11:47:32 GMT -5
I don’t think of it as a question of who won—although, undoubtedly, it’s Punk. It’s more that MJF needs something. If he’s gonna be the guy to carry the company, at any point, he needs more than one layer. Excellent delivery, great wrestling skills. Even then, though. A rich dude that insults local towns. Is that all there is? For all the talk of “lesser Miz”, Miz developed a character and a history that he brought to feuds when needed. Max hasn’t yet. Go back and listen to MJF’s promo against Jungle Boy for their PPV match. It is so much different, and better, than most of MJF’s stuff lately. This feud needs to make MJF grow beyond his exceptionally one-note character, as much as I like the guy. MJF needs to show more emotional vulnerability/insecurity, that there’s a weak point you can “get to him” with. Yeah, yeah, I know, “Better than you and you know it”, But in 2021 wrestling, you’re not hitting that “Next Level” believability when there’s nothing authentic for fans to connect to, even as a heel. The fact that they were really pushing his tendency to go for low-hanging fruit does give him that he’s gonna evolve. Again, isolated, he does great work. But this feud won’t reach its potential if the only other side he ever expresses is in fleeting facial expressions – as opposed to his words and actions.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Nov 25, 2021 11:59:23 GMT -5
Looking forward to see more of it. But this was awesome. MJF is one of the best heel talkers in today wrestling. Punk just one of the best of all time. He came from a different era if you will pre his WWE run and even in the WWE Punk was doing things most people couldn't do. Its going to be fun seeing these to going at it.
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FHgrad99
Vegeta
Never mind that s***, here comes Mongo!
Posts: 9,013
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Post by FHgrad99 on Nov 25, 2021 12:13:29 GMT -5
I wasn't able to see it live but after watching the video that was posted on the first page, it was amazing. Both guys are great talkers. I felt like Punk got some better burns in. The Miz line was brilliant. This was a promo master class by both guys.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,741
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Post by Dub H on Nov 25, 2021 12:17:05 GMT -5
Yeh for sure MJF held his own there and helpes make this be amazing but Punk's burns where just the best
"You didnt even notice you were replaced by Britt Baker" is amazing.
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Post by Susan "Poison" Candy on Nov 25, 2021 12:34:21 GMT -5
But that ties into the other reasons they're not the same kinds of talkers: MJF is meant to be a person with essentially no redeeming qualities, and he relishes being that spoiled douchebag we've all run into at one time or another. Punk, while being heel for much of his career, was still always someone who came off as being driven by his convictions, even if they were misplaced or extreme, and ultimately there haven't been many times when we, as a viewing audience, have been asked to legitimately *hate* the character of CM Punk. Hell, much of his WWE run, even when he was a bad guy, still revolved that sense of "he deserves more than he's getting". MJF doesn't want that, so he isn't going to speak in a way that invites it. That's kind of how I see it. MJF is being a douchebag asshole just to be a douchebag asshole while Punk he acted like a douchebag asshole but he was at least an HONEST douchebag asshole. MJF is the spoiled rotten little kid who isn't getting what he wants so he has to resort to whining and calling people naughty names to try and get what he wants. Punk on the other hand is the kid who worked hard and made it too the top but because he was never seen as that guy from the people in the back he decides to poke fun and jab at the people who are holding him down because he feels he isn't getting the recognition that he deserves so he has a legitimate reason to be a dick towards everyone and anyone.
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pinja
Unicron
Posts: 2,991
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Post by pinja on Nov 25, 2021 12:45:07 GMT -5
I thought MJF was HORRIBLE. He got embarrassed by Punk and that both made the segment and made me feel bad later on. At first I thought it was lopsided by design, but given it's length, I think they were supposed to be more even matched, which MJF failed at. His delivery was almost as good as always, his body language and facial expressions were fine, but the material was so immature, so without any hook that could get under Punk's skin, that it would have been enough for Punk to just laugh for a bit and go away. MJF delivered a good cookie cutter promo for a throw away match and that broke his neck so bad. Great opportunity for growth for him.
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Post by One-Armed Drummer of Defrebel on Nov 25, 2021 12:58:51 GMT -5
CM Punk directly in MJF's face when it was clear MJF was absolutely not winning this "YOU'RE NOT GONNA BACK IT UP CAUSE YOU CAN'T BACK UP SHIT"
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Post by simplydurhamcalling on Nov 25, 2021 16:09:15 GMT -5
The thing is MJF being embarrassed by Punk works going forward too, it gives him justifiable reason (in his head at least) to take things to the next level.
I'll be interested to see if they try to drag this out to the next PPV but at this rate they will have to have a match before then.
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chnwh
AC Slater
Posts: 108
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Post by chnwh on Nov 25, 2021 16:38:23 GMT -5
Two of my favourites going at it, and I loved it.
This one can drag on as long as they like.
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chnwh
AC Slater
Posts: 108
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Post by chnwh on Nov 25, 2021 16:41:08 GMT -5
The thing is MJF being embarrassed by Punk works going forward too, it gives him justifiable reason (in his head at least) to take things to the next level. I'll be interested to see if they try to drag this out to the next PPV but at this rate they will have to have a match before then. Rubber match at the PPV
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