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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 10:58:28 GMT -5
This revealed MJF's greatest weakness on promo deliveries.
He cannot improvise.
I felt like for a while that he heavily rehearses his promos beforehand and in when you monologue, that usually works, but in the spirit of spontaneity when you're dueling promos with another wrestler, he has to stick to the plan cause... thinking on the fly isn't a strong suit of his.
A guy like Kingston can match wits with Punk and, sometimes, even overtake him thanks to having that skill. Maybe MJF will learn that talent but right now it looks off when he has to talk with somebody that only uses bullet points as guidance.
... I hope I made sense and wasn't rambling.
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Post by eJm on Nov 27, 2021 13:45:14 GMT -5
Eh, I thought it sucked. I’m kind of sick of the whole “you’re an inoffensive spokesman for our company, and that’s bad and you’re a sellout because REBELS ARE SUPERIOR!” stuff that’s meant to get heat. Shouldn’t becoming the #1 star and a long reigning champion, or serving as a good representative for a promotion and moving a ton of merchandise be, you know, celebrated? I know that’s probably not very “punk rock”, but MJF’s and Punk’s characters both clearly want to be #1 on the Billboard charts. The entire point was that MJF is full of shit and trying to needle Punk with whatever he can cobble together, and Punk is the good guy who we should want to see happy and successful. It just so happens that Punk is also still fully capable of ethering those who try to step to him, so that's what they did. Pretty much. MJF’s entire intention was to remind him of his past grievances and how no matter what he did, he was second banana to someone else, points people had brought up when he was low and doing MMA and being bitter about wrestling. Punk basically responded by saying “Dude, I know all that. You think that scars me? If that truly did, I wouldn’t be here”. And it was the first significant counter to his mind games since Darby no selling it.
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repomark
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Post by repomark on Nov 27, 2021 13:59:03 GMT -5
I thought it was first class and loved every minute. Two of the best on the mic right now going at it, and can’t wait for round 2.
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Post by sportatorium on Nov 27, 2021 14:37:35 GMT -5
MJF said way too much. Punk is still the man on the mic. MJF & the goons need to give a beatdown to get some heat.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Nov 27, 2021 14:54:53 GMT -5
This revealed MJF's greatest weakness on promo deliveries. He cannot improvise. I felt like for a while that he heavily rehearses his promos beforehand and in when you monologue, that usually works, but in the spirit of spontaneity when you're dueling promos with another wrestler, he has to stick to the plan cause... thinking on the fly isn't a strong suit of his. A guy like Kingston can match wits with Punk and, sometimes, even overtake him thanks to having that skill. Maybe MJF will learn that talent but right now it looks off when he has to talk with somebody that only uses bullet points as guidance. ... I hope I made sense and wasn't rambling. But how can anyone prove what MJF was saying was to a tight script and he wasn't improvising and never improvises? Like you're going off a feeling... JF did absolutely fine in this promo off and it was pretty designed for Punk to win in Chicago. He wasn't supposed to try and win this one and it was pretty obvious. Kingston was meant to be on even ground and he was and got the crowd behind him.
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Nov 27, 2021 15:09:52 GMT -5
If the intent of the booking shines blatantly through, it's not organic. My gripe with the segment is: I feel like MJF was supposed to lose, but the way he did made me feel uncomfortable, almost sorry for MJF. After Punk obliterated him in his first promo portion, all of MJF's subsequent insults fell flat and he had a much harder time getting a reaction from the crowd. It's not just that his juvenile, try-hard insults usually work to set his opponents off - the crowd reacts accordingly, too. It didn't during the middle part and, as said, that made me feel uncomfortable watching the segment. They/MJF did get it back on track a bit, but I thought more "thank goodness" to myself than going with the content.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Nov 27, 2021 15:14:25 GMT -5
This revealed MJF's greatest weakness on promo deliveries. He cannot improvise. I felt like for a while that he heavily rehearses his promos beforehand and in when you monologue, that usually works, but in the spirit of spontaneity when you're dueling promos with another wrestler, he has to stick to the plan cause... thinking on the fly isn't a strong suit of his. A guy like Kingston can match wits with Punk and, sometimes, even overtake him thanks to having that skill. Maybe MJF will learn that talent but right now it looks off when he has to talk with somebody that only uses bullet points as guidance. ... I hope I made sense and wasn't rambling. Oh, I think he absolutely can improvise and has shown the skill before. Eddie’s on another level and so is Punk, so I feel it’s almost unfair to compare. I kind of get the gist of what you’re saying though. I have wondered if they executed this the way Jericho’s spoken they’ve executed it before: Where the guys don’t know what the other will say, simply the last word of every bit to cue them on their part or if they planned the whole thing together. Just wondering.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Nov 27, 2021 15:18:47 GMT -5
This revealed MJF's greatest weakness on promo deliveries. He cannot improvise. I felt like for a while that he heavily rehearses his promos beforehand and in when you monologue, that usually works, but in the spirit of spontaneity when you're dueling promos with another wrestler, he has to stick to the plan cause... thinking on the fly isn't a strong suit of his. A guy like Kingston can match wits with Punk and, sometimes, even overtake him thanks to having that skill. Maybe MJF will learn that talent but right now it looks off when he has to talk with somebody that only uses bullet points as guidance. ... I hope I made sense and wasn't rambling. Oh, I think he absolutely can improvise and has shown the skill before. Eddie’s on another level and so is Punk, so I feel it’s almost unfair to compare. I kind of get the gist of what you’re saying though. I have wondered if they executed this the way Jericho’s spoken they’ve executed it before: Where the guys don’t know what the other will say, simply the last word of every bit to cue them on their part or if they planned the whole thing together. Just wondering. Yeah. I wouldn’t be shocked if they established guardrails and nothing more. I think Punk and Eddie also benefit from their wrestling characters essentially being just regular people while MJF is kind of a prototypical wrestling villain.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 20:09:41 GMT -5
What really stuck out to me are their promo styles and it really showed Punk's experience.
MJF = An evolved version of WWE's style. By that I mean, WWE promos are full of "gut punch lines" and filler. They say a lot of nonsense until the wrestler says something the crowd will react to. Stuff like calling someone a "bitch", or the wrestler's catchphrase, even stuff where the wrestler's saying nothing until they say "well if you wanna fight let's do it right here in (insert city)" until the heel leaves. MJF's style is similar except he makes a lot of his gut punches hit harder, he makes his "filler" more interesting, "less filler" but overall it's similar. It's why a lot of his lines had that WWE-like pause at the end of it before he moved on. It's why he was pausing a lot even when the crowd wasn't reacting much. It's sorta battle rap in a way. In battle rap dudes set bars up and after they go for that right hook there's always a part at the end where the crowd reacts before their next bar. Even if the crowd isn't reacting, it's always placed there just in case. MJF is similar, he's just better at it than most in WWE. He's also got something most in WWE don't have when it comes to promos and that's that pure fire, that pure anger, when he's mad and he says something you think "damn, he's serious about his shit" and that says everything when it comes to delivery. I forgot which emcee said it but I was reading a book once and a legend said "you can give all the secrets of the world in your verse but if it sounds bad nobody will hear it." MJF, he's got a way to deliver his lines and they just always stick harder than they should, harder than most would make them if they tried it. At the end of the day if that's the hand you're using to feed people, people will eat from it because that hand is good. Also like @jdogindy stated posts ago though, MJF can't improvise well and well, not many battle rappers are great at it. Still when it comes with what he knows, he's gonna get you.
Punk = He's a little different. He's got his own style but then he had to learn the WWE style and now he's mixing them both together. From a delivery standpoint, unlike MJF he's got less pauses for crowd reaction and at times it's like he's not even thinking about the crowd being there, he's just talking while MJF usually stops when the crowd speaks. Content-wise, Punk's got a pure point he wants to prove with his promos and each thing he says is a setup for that. An example is, hypothetically, say Punk thought he was still the BITW. His promo would be filled with lines connected to that, comments and references to emphasize that which he'd also get into at the end of his promo to fill it out. No lines are filler, they're all used to hone in on his grand purpose. An example is like an rpg, say you've got an attacker and you've got everybody else on the team buffing that attacker and aiding in defense so the attacker can get his shirt off. That's Punk. Along the way he's got quotables, callbacks, references, just pure "wrestling nerd shit" so pure fans love it. Another example is a Jay-Z album or a Kendrick Lamar album. An album that's got little wasted lines and tons of Easter eggs so when you go back to it you're like "ohhhhhhhhhhhh" and it's dope. I mean he's got that conviction that can make a simple line hit harder like MJF does too. Like, after he called dude a less-famous Miz he mouthed "bitch" and that in itself hit harder than a lot of what MJF said because Punk switched from being serious to the old school kid insult stuff after he threw that haymaker. He's got that same hand MJF does in regards to feeding people. His hand's more experienced and clever though. In regards to improvisation, this guy's Hollow da Don. We remember the "you wanna know what my lil sister texted me" and "-my movie went straight to dvd just like yours" lines he said to experienced veterans. It's hard to beat someone like that.
MJF in the future might end up like Punk or, what I think, he might end up like Jericho. Jericho is a great promo too but he's more of the WWE style than Punk's style if that makes any sense and that's not to say Jericho is bad, that's just saying Punk's one of the best to ever do it on the mic for a reason. Overall they both did their thing but Punk's known for his promos for a reason.
And shoutout to MJF too. The kid is young and he did the damn thing here. Yeah Punk was better but you're young and you're doing what you do well, we couldn't ask for more.
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.
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Post by . on Nov 27, 2021 20:15:56 GMT -5
Eh, I thought it sucked. I’m kind of sick of the whole “you’re an inoffensive spokesman for our company, and that’s bad and you’re a sellout because REBELS ARE SUPERIOR!” stuff that’s meant to get heat. Shouldn’t becoming the #1 star and a long reigning champion, or serving as a good representative for a promotion and moving a ton of merchandise be, you know, celebrated? I know that’s probably not very “punk rock”, but MJF’s and Punk’s characters both clearly want to be #1 on the Billboard charts. What?..........No.............................Just.................................No.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 27, 2021 20:17:38 GMT -5
Eh, I thought it sucked. I’m kind of sick of the whole “you’re an inoffensive spokesman for our company, and that’s bad and you’re a sellout because REBELS ARE SUPERIOR!” stuff that’s meant to get heat. Shouldn’t becoming the #1 star and a long reigning champion, or serving as a good representative for a promotion and moving a ton of merchandise be, you know, celebrated? I know that’s probably not very “punk rock”, but MJF’s and Punk’s characters both clearly want to be #1 on the Billboard charts. What?..........No.............................Just.................................No. I didn’t like the promo, dude. I dunno what else to tell you. ‘s my prerogative.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Nov 27, 2021 20:47:58 GMT -5
I feel this actually makes me so excited for MJF’s future. For his age,l group, he is definitely the best promo. But he’s also still very young, so when you go up against one of the best of all time on the mic, when he’s 40, and has been through so much, great times, bad times, times he’s been f***ed over. One reason you believe every word CM Punk says is because you know he’s been there. Eddie Kingston, Jericho, Mox all have that as well.
So this makes me wonder what MJF will be like at 35 or more. He’s gonna be even better than he is right now.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Nov 27, 2021 22:19:09 GMT -5
Rewatching it, one thing I absolutely love about this promo is that MJF has been in other promo battles. Even with Jericho, he was never really phased by what he said outside of a match being announced or stakes being raised.
This is the first time in AEW where someone actually got MJF in a promo. He didn't brush it off, he didn't just laugh it off. He got got. Punk got in his head and pissed him off. Early.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 27, 2021 22:26:17 GMT -5
Punk got outclassed but he's so young still, and he's gotten compared not-so-favorably to Punk and Eddie, but both guys have had years to refine things and get more comfortable. Dude's not gonna hang with fifteen year vets on the stick, but I don't think anyone of note MJF's age could've hung better in that than MJF did, frankly.
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Chiral
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Post by Chiral on Nov 27, 2021 22:53:33 GMT -5
One thing I really really like on rewatch is Punk's "I won't lie to you, and I won't lie to these people. I was scared of coming back, of the people not remembering me, of me not still having it any more. But trust me, I'm not scared any longer. And I'm certainly not scared of you."
Partly because anything I can relate to my own anxiety/panic disorder issues I mark for, and partly cuz I really love a good moment of a face standing up to a bully heel. If there's one thing I think Punk has vastly improved on in his return is being a more vulnerable good guy. He's such a good heel but when he's done the true heroic lines since coming back— the first promo, the Moxley promo, this, it feels more authentic than pretty much any of his face work I've seen of his prior.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Nov 28, 2021 0:21:03 GMT -5
One thing I really really like on rewatch is Punk's "I won't lie to you, and I won't lie to these people. I was scared of coming back, of the people not remembering me, of me not still having it any more. But trust me, I'm not scared any longer. And I'm certainly not scared of you." Partly because anything I can relate to my own anxiety/panic disorder issues I mark for, and partly cuz I really love a good moment of a face standing up to a bully heel. If there's one thing I think Punk has vastly improved on in his return is being a more vulnerable good guy. He's such a good heel but when he's done the true heroic lines since coming back— the first promo, the Moxley promo, this, it feels more authentic than pretty much any of his face work I've seen of his prior. Between that from Punk, Hangman’s entire AEW run, and Eddie Kingston mentioning his own mental health struggles and how he overcomes them, AEW’s done well in presenting babyfaces who have vulnerabilities without making them any less of a person.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Nov 28, 2021 11:40:20 GMT -5
One thing I really really like on rewatch is Punk's "I won't lie to you, and I won't lie to these people. I was scared of coming back, of the people not remembering me, of me not still having it any more. But trust me, I'm not scared any longer. And I'm certainly not scared of you." Partly because anything I can relate to my own anxiety/panic disorder issues I mark for, and partly cuz I really love a good moment of a face standing up to a bully heel. If there's one thing I think Punk has vastly improved on in his return is being a more vulnerable good guy. He's such a good heel but when he's done the true heroic lines since coming back— the first promo, the Moxley promo, this, it feels more authentic than pretty much any of his face work I've seen of his prior. Between that from Punk, Hangman’s entire AEW run, and Eddie Kingston mentioning his own mental health struggles and how he overcomes them, AEW’s done well in presenting babyfaces who have vulnerabilities without making them any less of a person. I think in general, face or heel, the audience kind of expects wrestlers to come off like real people (for the most part, there will always be some people who can mostly be a gimmick wrestler, though), so yeah, vulnerability is a lot more important now.
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FHgrad99
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Post by FHgrad99 on Nov 28, 2021 12:05:43 GMT -5
I listened to Jim Cornette talk about this segment and he really enjoyed it. He mentioned a little thing that I don't think anybody else mentioned that added to it, in his eyes. When the segment started MJF and Punk were in opposite corners and as the segment went on they got closer and closer to each other. Then once they got close enough to get physical, Punk challenged MJF to fight him and MJF, being the heel, bailed.
In my view, what helped make this segment is that everything felt authentic and not scripted. I look forward to seeing what's next.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Nov 28, 2021 13:25:32 GMT -5
I listened to Jim Cornette talk about this segment and he really enjoyed it. He mentioned a little thing that I don't think anybody else mentioned that added to it, in his eyes. When the segment started MJF and Punk were in opposite corners and as the segment went on they got closer and closer to each other. Then once they got close enough to get physical, Punk challenged MJF to fight him and MJF, being the heel, bailed. In my view, what helped make this segment is that everything felt authentic and not scripted. I look forward to seeing what's next. That happened with the Eddie promo too. And in that case, the closer Eddie got, the more pissed he got, making it seem like he would eventually snap. Which made Punk snapping all the more surprising.
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comahan
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Post by comahan on Nov 28, 2021 13:33:13 GMT -5
I loved this because it was structured like a match, and just like with the Kingston promo, they got the result they wanted.
Punk/Kingston was set up to let Kingston shine, and he knocked it out of the park when he got his moment. This was set up for Punk to shine after MJF had long heat segments, not unlike a match, and Punk knocked it out of the park when he got his moment.
I don't think this is so much about who won or lost the battle, because I feel like the point of the promo was to let Punk show his goods, just like the point of Punk/Kingston was to let Kingston show his.
Wonderful exchange. Punk has been involved in 3 of the best promos/segments of the year since his return for me (First Dance, Punk/Kingston, Punk/MJF).
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