petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Jan 9, 2022 1:09:24 GMT -5
In ECW did submission rope breaks ever happen? I mean logically if there are no DQs you can just keep the hold on even if they do get to the ropes and the ref can't DQ you. What are they gonna do? Not count the submission and let the other wrestler suffer? Well, a fall has to legally take place in the ring (unless it's a falls-count-anywhere match, but ECW stupidly used rope breaks even then, IIRC). You may not be DQ'd for having a submission hold in the ropes, but you can't win the match that way, either.
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petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Jan 9, 2022 1:15:15 GMT -5
I've always been of the belief that wrestling rules just suck in general. Like in wrestling, you're legally allowed to choke your opponent. The only limitation is you can only do so in four second intervals. There's nothing really stopping you from eye rakes since every ref in the world will just sternly talk to you. There's no reason not to put your foot on the ropes every chance you can get because there's no consequence if you get caught. You're totally allowed to bring a barbwire bat into the ring as long as you don't use it. If we're going to fix reffing, I feel like the whole system needs to be rethought. Probably. And while we can't go all the way back to this, there's a reason why George Scott prohibited all of this stuff on matches before intermission (i.e., the undercard matches) during his glory years of booking Crockett Promotions. No working the mic, no low blows, no screwjob finishes...nothing more outwardly heelish than maybe a closed fist or a non-clean break on the ropes, just to establish what the rules are. Then it means something when in the first star vs. star match on the show there are actual dirty tactics, and when main event time comes and a chair is being cracked over somebody, people actually knew that s*** was going down and that the stakes were high. When Joey Janela and Sonny Kiss are using tables and chairs in undercard matches, the stuff that follows means less and is ultimately pointless.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 9, 2022 1:24:46 GMT -5
I've always been of the belief that wrestling rules just suck in general. Like in wrestling, you're legally allowed to choke your opponent. The only limitation is you can only do so in four second intervals. There's nothing really stopping you from eye rakes since every ref in the world will just sternly talk to you. There's no reason not to put your foot on the ropes every chance you can get because there's no consequence if you get caught. You're totally allowed to bring a barbwire bat into the ring as long as you don't use it. If we're going to fix reffing, I feel like the whole system needs to be rethought. Probably. And while we can't go all the way back to this, there's a reason why George Scott prohibited all of this stuff on matches before intermission (i.e., the undercard matches) during his glory years of booking Crockett Promotions. No working the mic, no low blows, no screwjob finishes...nothing more outwardly heelish than maybe a closed fist or a non-clean break on the ropes, just to establish what the rules are. Then it means something when in the first star vs. star match on the show there are actual dirty tactics, and when main event time comes and a chair is being cracked over somebody, people actually knew that s*** was going down and that the stakes were high. When Joey Janela and Sonny Kiss are using tables and chairs in undercard matches, the stuff that follows means less and is ultimately pointless. Sonny Kiss vs Joey Janela was the main event of a show, on a completely different day than Dynamite or Rampage, and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who said their match took away from say TayJay vs Bunnelope's street fight days later... its one thing if it's on the same card, but that's not how your example was even constructed.
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petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Jan 9, 2022 1:34:25 GMT -5
I think AEW has booked too many clusterf***ky street fight matches close together, yes, especially with another 6-man one with Kingston and 2point0. Even if they're on different shows.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 9, 2022 1:40:53 GMT -5
I think AEW has booked too many clusterf***ky street fight matches close together, yes, especially with another 6-man one with Kingston and 2point0. Even if they're on different shows. They've all been different enough that I haven't minded. Janela/Kiss did a lot with a Ladder and the stage at the sound stage they filmed it in, TayJay vs Bunnelopee went straight up harddcore with barbed wire and tacks, and the six man did a lot of arena wide use and brawling and ended in a more traditional sense Guess we can just add that to our growing list of things we don't agree on, lol
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 9, 2022 1:42:30 GMT -5
It just feels half hearted that the announcers will talk about Disqualifications or they go through steps to distract the referees for the interference sometimes and not others... but the thing is the refs never seem to do anything about it...
if you're going to have rules and leniency even in the pseudo-way that wrestling does... you need someone to enforce the rules and there be punishments for breaking them or you don't have any rules.
Whether that be Disqualifications or things like kayfabe fines and suspensions or hell even the ref catching the cheating/interference and stopping it ... just something cause as it is now the refs seem stupid or ineffective.
ESPECIALLY with how often AEW has interferences.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 9, 2022 1:44:17 GMT -5
I do think DQs should be somewhat more common, but I'd rather they stop putting themselves into positions where you're constantly asking why there isn't a DQ than I would them actually have more DQs. It's an interesting point, because when it comes to table spots, I never see that as a DQ thing anymore. Not even WWE DQs for table spots, they do the announce table shit all the time, and the barricade break spot too. Tables to be are more inconsequential in my viewing as a DQable offense, same with using the stairs I can however agree with the notion that refs should probably throw out valets quicker if they're being blatantly caught. More how Sterling was ejected in the Jade/Ruby match
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 9, 2022 1:47:31 GMT -5
It just feels half hearted that the announcers will talk about Disqualifications or they go through steps to distract the referees for the interference sometimes and not others... but the thing is the refs never seem to do anything about it... if you're going to have rules and leniency even in the pseudo-way that wrestling does... you need someone to enforce the rules and there be punishments for breaking them or you don't have any rules. Whether that be Disqualifications or things like kayfabe fines and suspensions or hell even the ref catching the cheating/interference and stopping it ... just something cause as it is now the refs seem stupid or ineffective. ESPECIALLY with how often AEW has interferences. The thing tonight was the ref DID eject Rebel, it just came after a spot or two where the ref probably shouldn''t have let it go on so long so it became more standout There have been fines, suspensions, even match consequences in the past. I am definitely ok with it being more consistent though, make the heels ok with taking fines or punishments so the interferences still happen but maybe then Rebel has to take on Riho on DARK or something and gets wrecked.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jan 9, 2022 1:53:49 GMT -5
Personally my stance on tables is the announce tables should be fair game, anything else should be a DQ. I can forgive the former since they're part of the standard set dressing but if you're actively bringing them in then it's a problem. Kind of like I don't mind if someone gets thrown into the stairs on the outside but if the stairs are brought into the ring then you do it it should be a DQ.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Jan 9, 2022 6:51:47 GMT -5
I'd just be happy with refs and faces that didn't look like complete idiots. Make the heels have to work for their cheating.
I don't care that DQ's only happen once in a blue moon because DQ's are just as lazy a booking trope as the lawful stupid faces and blind referees. I just want to see logical consequences.
Exactly, I don't want cheap DQ finishes I just want the cheating to be behind the refs back rather than in front of them. Also don't want them doing a five count when an eye is being gouged out or an ear bitten off. If you are going to cheat in front of a ref at least have some sort of warning system. Or a post match punishment of not being allowed allies at ringside the next time. The formula is ancient so use it. Manager grabs an opponent's leg behind refs back, pleads innocence, tries it again and gets caught and ejected. Not person grabs leg, ref ignores it.
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dbrussel
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Post by dbrussel on Jan 9, 2022 8:35:49 GMT -5
There really is no logical sense to Hayter and Rebel constantly being allowed to be at ringside, though. It only makes all of Britt's babyface opponents and AEW itself look dumb for continuing to put up with it. That's the same with Roman and the Usos. And nobody call that act dumb.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 9, 2022 8:45:04 GMT -5
There really is no logical sense to Hayter and Rebel constantly being allowed to be at ringside, though. It only makes all of Britt's babyface opponents and AEW itself look dumb for continuing to put up with it. That's the same with Roman and the Usos. And nobody call that act dumb. People call that out all the f***in’ time, you mustn’t have looked hard enough.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jan 9, 2022 8:53:49 GMT -5
There really is no logical sense to Hayter and Rebel constantly being allowed to be at ringside, though. It only makes all of Britt's babyface opponents and AEW itself look dumb for continuing to put up with it. That's the same with Roman and the Usos. And nobody call that act dumb. Do the Usos always second Roman to the ring for his big title matches? I know they interfere a lot but I’m not sure they’re always out there. I know Heyman is. And people definitely criticize the Usos interfering.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 9, 2022 8:58:08 GMT -5
That's the same with Roman and the Usos. And nobody call that act dumb. Do the Usos always second Roman to the ring for his big title matches? I know they interfere a lot but I’m not sure they’re always out there. I know Heyman is. And people definitely criticize the Usos interfering. Roman's won way more matches in a dirty fashion than clean, to the point Balor had to lose via a magic rope snap, so yeah it's been heavily criticized Heels with interfering lackies is a general thing people just don't like a lot of the time tbh. I can't think of many times where people DIDN'T complain about it, and AEW isn't safe from that rule.
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Post by EP 54 is banned from Collision on Jan 9, 2022 9:06:59 GMT -5
I agree that if you want decicisive finishes, you've got to book the matches reasonably clean.
No one's calling for masses of DQs just for the heels to stop doing illegal shit in front of the refs.
Leniency is fine, but it has to be leniency for specific things. And it should be in favour of the faces most of the time. For example, if a referee suspects the heel has used a chair, but didn't see the act... and later in the match the face picks up the chair and the ref suddenly finds their shoelace is untied... that's fine. Blanket leniency like "this is a title match, I'm not going to DQ or count-out anyone no matter what they do" is dumb, and devalues no-DQ matches.
Also, if there's never any consequences for cheating, then dirty finishes don't protect anyone. They just make the face look dumb. And if wrestlers can't be bothered to spend a couple of seconds to break the count when they're brawling outside, then maybe they're in the wrong job.
I also feel like some wrestlers need to be told "no" more often when it comes to stuff like this. The agents should be like "okay, you want to brawl up the aisles for 5 minutes... why wouldn't the ref count you out?" and if the wrestlers can't come up with a good reason, the agent should nix it.
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dbrussel
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Post by dbrussel on Jan 9, 2022 9:41:23 GMT -5
That's the same with Roman and the Usos. And nobody call that act dumb. People call that out all the f***in’ time, you mustn’t have looked hard enough. Never saw someone calling WWE dumb cause they let Roman and his faction doing heel things (like any other company)
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bob
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Post by bob on Jan 9, 2022 9:43:40 GMT -5
I usually disagree with Cornette on AEW topics...
but he's right, the refs look incompetent a lot
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dbrussel
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Post by dbrussel on Jan 9, 2022 9:44:38 GMT -5
I’m getting increasingly annoyed with how AEW does interference spots and post match beatings in general. Like it’s not just that they do it in way too many matches. But it is suffocating. Either it’s so blatant, there’s so many people interfering, or there’s so many times they interfere, or some unholy combination of those. It makes the faces look dumb for not being prepared, it makes the referees look dumb for letting it go so much, it makes AEW staff at ringside look inept for not being able to stop it. And it makes AEW managements/Tony Khan in story look incompetent for just letting it go on and on with no consequences.It reminds me of how absurd WCW got with this sort of thing after awhile and I hated that as well. Did you watch the Attitude era?
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Post by polarbearpete on Jan 9, 2022 9:44:44 GMT -5
People call that out all the f***in’ time, you mustn’t have looked hard enough. Never saw someone calling WWE dumb cause they let Roman and his faction doing heel things (like any other company) You should venture into the WWE board and the constant Roman complaint threads then!
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Post by polarbearpete on Jan 9, 2022 9:46:54 GMT -5
I’m getting increasingly annoyed with how AEW does interference spots and post match beatings in general. Like it’s not just that they do it in way too many matches. But it is suffocating. Either it’s so blatant, there’s so many people interfering, or there’s so many times they interfere, or some unholy combination of those. It makes the faces look dumb for not being prepared, it makes the referees look dumb for letting it go so much, it makes AEW staff at ringside look inept for not being able to stop it. And it makes AEW managements/Tony Khan in story look incompetent for just letting it go on and on with no consequences.It reminds me of how absurd WCW got with this sort of thing after awhile and I hated that as well. Did you watch the Attitude era? 1- there were tons of DQs in the Attitude Era. 2- was the Attitude Era competently booked? 3- do people like all of the same things that they liked 25 years ago? 4- heels were almost always in charge during the Attitude Era and when they weren’t (Commissioner Foley), there would usually be consequences
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