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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 11, 2022 18:40:57 GMT -5
At this point I think the 'one women's match per show' must be coming from Turner surely? Tony has shown that he does listen, he does monitor fan sentiment online, and he will adjust. There's been so much said about the women's division being neglected I have to believe his hands are tied somehow at this point. Like, they've really NEVER broken the one match per show rule, which tells me it must be a hard and fast rule from somewhere. I just don't know how they can ever get people really invested in the division with so little air time. I dont think its a Turner thing I think its a case of shinier men's talent toys that got TK off the track. The new signings have definitely taken the shine off of the women's division for sure. I agree with some of the OPs statements Yeah, I highly doubt it has to do with Turner since they have done it occasionally.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Apr 11, 2022 19:51:29 GMT -5
At this point I think the 'one women's match per show' must be coming from Turner surely? Tony has shown that he does listen, he does monitor fan sentiment online, and he will adjust. There's been so much said about the women's division being neglected I have to believe his hands are tied somehow at this point. Like, they've really NEVER broken the one match per show rule, which tells me it must be a hard and fast rule from somewhere. I just don't know how they can ever get people really invested in the division with so little air time. The sentiment online is not actually coherent, though. There are people who want the women in the company to have more time, there are people who think every single woman on the roster sucks, there are people who stan two or three women and hate the rest, there are people who think the problem is that most of the women on the roster are mediocre workers who shouldn't be featured yet, there are people who frankly would rather there be no women's wrestling and take the weaknesses of the roster as an opportunity to bang that drum. Even here, a relatively chill discussion forum, every individual woman except maybe Serena Deeb has like three posters who will loudly decry her every minute of TV time as a waste, and it gets a bit stan war-ish. Whenever Khan and Omega have responded to criticisms of the division, they always act like the "every single woman on the roster sucks" sentiment is the dominant one, affirming that they're happy with their roster and high on their work. They've also both thrown out very "meritocracy" type comments that they're only interested in top of the line workers - while obviously having room for women who've been trained in-house, presumably because they prefer wrestlers who are trained for optimal TV presentation (Jade, Anna, and Julia are all way better than most of the indy workers at making their spots land for the camera). And y'know what, the "these women can't work" sentiment might actually be more common than "the women need more time," at least in terms of how often the brass hear it and where they hear it from (it's certainly the tack the Observer crew tend to take). If that's what they see as the dominant criticism, they're making the right responses to it for the most part, but it's still not optimal. I dont think its a Turner thing I think its a case of shinier men's talent toys that got TK off the track. The new signings have definitely taken the shine off of the women's division for sure. This as well - if there's any pressure from Turner that affects the women, it's assuredly less "don't do too many women's matches," and more "be sure to let MJF have a promo" on top of "put CM Punk on as often as possible" at the same time as "don't go too long without Jericho" with a dash of "use Ricky Starks more." Then the women get the scraps, which is the single segment's worth of time that is held as an ironclad and unassailable spot. Doesn't help that the men's roster is, legitimately, a who's who of some of the best wrestlers of the last 20 years. There just is not a single woman on the roster who has been a main eventer in a televised promotion in the US outside of AEW - you'd have to really stretch to say that either Ruby Soho or Toni Storm is even close to that. Then, many of the other women are really inexperienced, so they haven't had a great depth of ring generals, either. When Tony Khan's big trick for putting new stars on the map is having them wrestle the existing stars, he's blatantly less able to build a roster of stars from scratch.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 11, 2022 21:13:32 GMT -5
In terms of television presentation, a lot of the biggest women stars they have are stars from other countries. That's going to be fine with your diehard audience who knows who the joshi are like Riho and Shida. But you don't have that same ready-made splash star who people who mostly only know WWE are going to have a buzz about. Ruby Soho and Toni Storm are nice, but they aren't going to create the same sort of buzz that say, a Becky Lynch or Charlotte Flair would.
Once Paige Van Zant is ready to wrestle, she might be that person.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 11, 2022 22:04:54 GMT -5
At this point I think the 'one women's match per show' must be coming from Turner surely? Tony has shown that he does listen, he does monitor fan sentiment online, and he will adjust. There's been so much said about the women's division being neglected I have to believe his hands are tied somehow at this point. Like, they've really NEVER broken the one match per show rule, which tells me it must be a hard and fast rule from somewhere. I just don't know how they can ever get people really invested in the division with so little air time. The sentiment online is not actually coherent, though. There are people who want the women in the company to have more time, there are people who think every single woman on the roster sucks, there are people who stan two or three women and hate the rest, there are people who think the problem is that most of the women on the roster are mediocre workers who shouldn't be featured yet, there are people who frankly would rather there be no women's wrestling and take the weaknesses of the roster as an opportunity to bang that drum. Even here, a relatively chill discussion forum, every individual woman except maybe Serena Deeb has like three posters who will loudly decry her every minute of TV time as a waste, and it gets a bit stan war-ish. Whenever Khan and Omega have responded to criticisms of the division, they always act like the "every single woman on the roster sucks" sentiment is the dominant one, affirming that they're happy with their roster and high on their work. They've also both thrown out very "meritocracy" type comments that they're only interested in top of the line workers - while obviously having room for women who've been trained in-house, presumably because they prefer wrestlers who are trained for optimal TV presentation (Jade, Anna, and Julia are all way better than most of the indy workers at making their spots land for the camera). And y'know what, the "these women can't work" sentiment might actually be more common than "the women need more time," at least in terms of how often the brass hear it and where they hear it from (it's certainly the tack the Observer crew tend to take). If that's what they see as the dominant criticism, they're making the right responses to it for the most part, but it's still not optimal. Yeah, this all feels like the nuanced piece that doesn't make it into these talks very often. There is very little on a broad, systemic basis that a unanimous shout is going to come from. We had that one member who was vehemently opposed to them using Japanese women, calling it a crutch and saying they can't do storylines because they don't speak English and lots of just. Nasty weird bad stuff. And he's to my understanding gone now, but that's still someoen with a voice out there in the discourse on this division, and he unfortunately has as much of a voice as any one of us does. Maybe not a voice that's going to be listened to, but if you consider how bad that's gumming up the works, yeah, it's not a surprise. But I will say that on singular matters, there's room for response to do something. Everyone hated Rosa not getting a chance to speak and they were loud about it, and Tony course corrected hard when he realized how badly that was taken. And it sucks to be like "WE HAVE TO FIGHT EVERY FIGHT, KEEP GOING", and I super get people being exhausted and deciding that no they aren't leading grown ass adults by the hand in figuring out how this is all supposed to work, but when the right feedback gets through, they do something with it.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Apr 11, 2022 22:35:16 GMT -5
I think it’s been reported that it is NOT a Turner thing. They care about what draws ratings, regardless of gender.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Apr 11, 2022 22:40:57 GMT -5
Of course the number of women's matches isn't a Turner thing. Out of all the weird shit they've sometimes let Tony do, that's where they draw the line? Here is what I imagine the rationale internally is. Women probably make up 1/5 of the roster. So they'll likely get 1/5 matches. The men also have a deeper talent pool at this point. So if they're going to put on what they see as the best show every week, it's going to mainly involve the men and if there's a sixth match available, it will go in that direction. Of course to build the women's division, you need to invest time. I would like more of an investment too. But it has improved marginally and I think that will continue. I hope it will be faster but we shall see. I just never got why the one match per Dynamite (or two in total over three hours) sticks out to so many people. SmackDown is the same way. RAW usually has two but it's a longer show. We can expect more from AEW but this is unfortunately the standard of women's wrestling on major American television. I have never been upset because I never expected more, especially with the roster they've had for most of their run.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 11, 2022 22:41:07 GMT -5
For me it's just are they afraid that two women's matches is going to kill interest or flow of the show? Because the women don't inherently drive a ton of viewers away and quite a few of them have proven to be draws. The whole one match thing bugs me too, because no one's really going to care if Turner isn't the issue, which guys like Omega hinted at like a year and so ago.
When they were in the pandemic era with a gutted roster, it made more sense, they have much more talent to showcase now, which the fans like. I don't think anyone's gonna complain if you run Shida/Deeb and like... idk Ruby Soho vs Emi Sakura on one show in a double Owen Qualifier or something.
I also keep saying if AEW did more multi person matches, Trios Matches, Triple Threats, Four Ways to help get girls on TV and just go out there and have fun and frenetic paced matches, it'd help too, because then if you're dead set on the "One match a show thing" for now or it's some weird network edict, you can at least get multiple girls fighting and developing on the show at once... but I guess we'll continue to see how they go about it.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 11, 2022 22:50:26 GMT -5
Of course the number of women's matches isn't a Turner thing. Out of all the weird shit they've sometimes let Tony do, that's where they draw the line? Here is what I imagine the rationale internally is. Women probably make up 1/5 of the roster. So they'll likely get 1/5 matches. The men also have a deeper talent pool at this point. So if they're going to put on what they see as the best show every week, it's going to mainly involve the men and if there's a sixth match available, it will go in that direction. Of course to build the women's division, you need to invest time. I would like more of an investment too. But it has improved marginally and I think that will continue. I hope it will be faster but we shall see. I just never got why the one match per Dynamite (or two in total over three hours) sticks out to so many people. SmackDown is the same way. RAW usually has two but it's a longer show. We can expect more from AEW but this is unfortunately the standard of women's wrestling on major American television. I have never been upset because I never expected more, especially with the roster they've had for most of their run. Yeah I don't hate it like some people do, I just want to see the talents get featured more, and I think that's a main complaint if not THE main complaint. I know for example there's been outcry about Ruby being off TV, but I think the reason is they don't want her to lose on Dynamite or Rampage again right now, so they have her getting reps and getting good wins with the younger girls on Elevation. I think they want her to beat Nyla, but Nyla's going for the belt until this week ends... so it might pick up after that? Maybe Ruby vs Nyla becomes a Qualifier match or a match in the actual Owen Tourney, since the feuds even at 1-1, I think Ruby takes it and regains momentum regardless. I also think the other reason is they needed her to find a new finisher, and she's since done so, using "Destination Unknown", a form of Blade Runner now, which just looks way better and more impactful than No Future. So the good news is, she's still been very over on the shows, and is improving in style. Hope this all means she's getting back to a run soon, and they've just kept her warm since then, cause the live crowds still can't get enough of her. Also here's the finisher:
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Post by Kalmia on Apr 12, 2022 4:21:28 GMT -5
I can understand that there might be worries that women's matches will hit the ratings or lose the crowd. But you don't solve that problem by reducing the women's roles and making them seem less important. Wheeler Yuta is an extreme example because he's an excellent wrestler, but AEW took him from nothing to getting cheered over Mox and Danielson in a matter of weeks through his presentation, matches, and commentary. You can't follow that blueprint with the women (and I'm not suggesting AEW does) but it shows that to make people care, you have to give them a reason to. Give them a reason, and they will.
The women's division is 10% excellent workers, 20% average ones, and 70% green potential (not scientific numbers, just a rough representation) so book it accordingly. I don't think some of the greener workers need to be exposed in 10+ minute matches. Save those for your Deebs and Shidas and have the others wrestler shorter and smarter until they get their reps in. I'd prefer two fire five minutes matches than one drawn out 10 minute one that is over-ambitious. Get the women that need it working more indy dates. Send a couple over to TJPW to go through their training system. Those are more long term fixes.
Short term, keep doing the promo packages and interviews that AEW has done recently. Those are good. Showcase more. The WWE's mixed tag tournament thing was a blast, doing one in AEW could be a fun way to showcase more personalities (for both the women and some of the currently directionless men)
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Post by clifford on Apr 12, 2022 6:43:27 GMT -5
The massive gulf in star power between the male and female roster is a great point. As a poster pointed out, with the men's roster you basically have the greatest collection of established talent from the last 10 years that aren't under WWE or NJPW contract, coupled with some amazing up and coming young wrestlers.
The female roster just can't compete with that yet. I think its why you are seeing a concentrated effort to create female, for want of a much better term, 'superstars'; Britt, Rosa, Jade etc. And yes, unfortunately that means that it is just not possible to showcase the entire division equally. But what it might mean is that in a few years AEW will have their own 'S-Tier' level of female talent, ala what the WWE have in Becky/Charlotte/Sasha/Bianca. That in turn will allow the division to expand more naturally I think.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 12, 2022 7:51:56 GMT -5
Of course the number of women's matches isn't a Turner thing. Out of all the weird shit they've sometimes let Tony do, that's where they draw the line? Here is what I imagine the rationale internally is. Women probably make up 1/5 of the roster. So they'll likely get 1/5 matches. The men also have a deeper talent pool at this point. So if they're going to put on what they see as the best show every week, it's going to mainly involve the men and if there's a sixth match available, it will go in that direction. Of course to build the women's division, you need to invest time. I would like more of an investment too. But it has improved marginally and I think that will continue. I hope it will be faster but we shall see. I just never got why the one match per Dynamite (or two in total over three hours) sticks out to so many people. SmackDown is the same way. RAW usually has two but it's a longer show. We can expect more from AEW but this is unfortunately the standard of women's wrestling on major American television. I have never been upset because I never expected more, especially with the roster they've had for most of their run. I don't know if that's the exact breakdown, but I do think it was about 20% as of however many months ago in 2021. In an average week you get about 8 (sometimes 9) matches between Dynamite and Rampage, and 2 end up being women's matches of some kind, so proportionally it's not too bad, assuming the numbers are still like that. However, I do think they could stand to do more women's tag matches; go ahead and pair up some faces and heels who are in feuds and use it as a chance to showcase more people, ala when they had Anna and Tay against Penelope and Allie.
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 12, 2022 9:32:37 GMT -5
Of course the number of women's matches isn't a Turner thing. Out of all the weird shit they've sometimes let Tony do, that's where they draw the line? Here is what I imagine the rationale internally is. Women probably make up 1/5 of the roster. So they'll likely get 1/5 matches. The men also have a deeper talent pool at this point. So if they're going to put on what they see as the best show every week, it's going to mainly involve the men and if there's a sixth match available, it will go in that direction. Of course to build the women's division, you need to invest time. I would like more of an investment too. But it has improved marginally and I think that will continue. I hope it will be faster but we shall see. I just never got why the one match per Dynamite (or two in total over three hours) sticks out to so many people. SmackDown is the same way. RAW usually has two but it's a longer show. We can expect more from AEW but this is unfortunately the standard of women's wrestling on major American television. I have never been upset because I never expected more, especially with the roster they've had for most of their run. The thing with Raw and Smackdown that is different even in weeks where there is only one women’s match is that they will typically still have long, in-ring featured segments/promos with the top women stars in addition to the matches, and these segments even sometimes open or close the show. The women are consistently featured to a much greater extent in WWE and woven in throughout the program, where typically (with exceptions) on a week-to-week basis the women in AEW seem almost like a sideshow or a token part of the show (as in, here’s your women’s match for the week, followed by a rapid fire 30-second backstage promo). Like I said, there are exceptions to this but they are spread out pretty far when looking at the history of Dynamite.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Apr 12, 2022 9:36:28 GMT -5
Of course the number of women's matches isn't a Turner thing. Out of all the weird shit they've sometimes let Tony do, that's where they draw the line? Here is what I imagine the rationale internally is. Women probably make up 1/5 of the roster. So they'll likely get 1/5 matches. The men also have a deeper talent pool at this point. So if they're going to put on what they see as the best show every week, it's going to mainly involve the men and if there's a sixth match available, it will go in that direction. Of course to build the women's division, you need to invest time. I would like more of an investment too. But it has improved marginally and I think that will continue. I hope it will be faster but we shall see. I just never got why the one match per Dynamite (or two in total over three hours) sticks out to so many people. SmackDown is the same way. RAW usually has two but it's a longer show. We can expect more from AEW but this is unfortunately the standard of women's wrestling on major American television. I have never been upset because I never expected more, especially with the roster they've had for most of their run. The thing with Raw and Smackdown that is different even in weeks where there is only one women’s match is that they will typically still have long, in-ring featured segments/promos with the top women stars in addition to the matches, and these segments even sometimes open or close the show. The women are consistently featured to a much greater extent in WWE and woven in throughout the program, where typically (with exceptions) on a week-to-week basis the women in AEW seem almost like a sideshow or a token part of the show (as in, here’s your women’s match for the week, followed by a rapid fire 30-second backstage promo). Like I said, there are exceptions to this but they are spread out pretty far when looking at the history of Dynamite. WWE does do a much better job in presenting more of the women as stars. That's the bigger issue to me. I'm not saying the amount of matches doesn't matter but to me it's more of a red herring. Having a segment that Ruby/Britt had on Rampage does more than a lot of matches they could've done. More of that (but with talent other than Britt) could go a long way.
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 12, 2022 9:49:04 GMT -5
The thing with Raw and Smackdown that is different even in weeks where there is only one women’s match is that they will typically still have long, in-ring featured segments/promos with the top women stars in addition to the matches, and these segments even sometimes open or close the show. The women are consistently featured to a much greater extent in WWE and woven in throughout the program, where typically (with exceptions) on a week-to-week basis the women in AEW seem almost like a sideshow or a token part of the show (as in, here’s your women’s match for the week, followed by a rapid fire 30-second backstage promo). Like I said, there are exceptions to this but they are spread out pretty far when looking at the history of Dynamite. WWE does do a much better job in presenting more of the women as stars. That's the bigger issue to me. I'm not saying the amount of matches doesn't matter but to me it's more of a red herring. Having a segment that Ruby/Britt had on Rampage does more than a lot of matches they could've done. More of that (but with talent other than Britt) could go a long way. Right, Dynamite tends to be mostly matches so I think that’s why people latch onto that, but if they did one two-segment women’s match in the middle of the show, a few quick backstage promos and then a long, featured in-ring promo/segment each week, I don’t think people would mind there being one match.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Apr 12, 2022 11:11:00 GMT -5
You have someone like Jamie Hayter, who was getting over to the pork she got dueling chants with mega over Thunder Rosa during their TBS Title Tournament match.
And yet she’s been sidelined something fierce. She’s barely been on TV since then.
Ruby, for all the complaints about “not living up” still gets good reactions most weeks on Dark and Elevation. But banishing her off TV does nothing to “protect” her. The Wrestletalk people pointed out how she was one of the hyped up signings on the same show as Danielson, Cole, etc.
Yet those guys are on TV almost every week and have had MULTIPLE storylines since then. Ruby, it feels like TK does not know what to do with her by contrast.
The Shida vs. Deeb feud has been paced oddly (Shida comes back and attacks Deeb, and they’ve done nothing with it since then) and they STILL have not gotten a PPV match.
Etc.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 12, 2022 14:50:38 GMT -5
Shida had nagging injuries and also a trip back to Japan right after their most recent match which turned into Deeb beating the shit out of her. Looked like it was a knee injury because she was wearing a knee brace for the next few weeks. And she's heading back to Japan soon, too. So a lot of that kills momentum.
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Post by holyshida on Apr 12, 2022 16:32:46 GMT -5
Sorry if I'm sharp, not my intention but it always irks me when people defend Jade being on TV every week and justify Anna not being on TV when she's putting on better matches. The difference in booking between them is like summer and winter. It's just the promos that's her weakest part, but again she's not had much of an opportunity to improve that. This is the issue, the opinion that Anna Jay is a better worker is extremely subjective, the opinion that Anna Jay deserves as much as Jade is currently getting, is subjective I don't hate Anna, I know you seem to THINK that I do, but Anna Jay is someone who they leaned on in the early pandemic when they really needed to, and is now someone they don't have to lean on and can develop at a much more lenient pace, considering she's 23 and hasn't worked like 40 matches in her career yet, and she's coming off that major injury that kept her out almost a year, it's a big deal to make sure that she gets reps, gets better, and then, eventually, becomes much more of a pillar for the division. Jade Cargill's on a faster track because her promo skills have improved and no one in wrestling has come along like her with the aura that she has since Chyna, Jade being on TV every week is not some exclusive knock on Anna Jay not being on TV at all, people just either like or have been impressed by her, she's not perfect, but there's a reason she gets on TV when you have people like Vanessa Hudgens talking about her on socials and giving attention to the product, she stands out, she's a cross platform type of star that can transcend beyond wrestling if they really let her. And again, none of that is congruent to Anna Jay or her current standing, but the discussions keep being made to be such. They like Anna, that's never been a dispute, but at 23, this isn't some make or break for her, she's probably going to be there for a long time and has a long career ahead of her. But in terms of an immediate priority, it's not a slight or an insult to just say "It's ok if she's on Elevation right now and these other girls are focus", you'll disagree, because your stance is pretty firm on this, as we've seen all over the place, but again, this is why it's all subjective in the first place. Also I want to hear what excuse that Anna couldn't be built up the way Marina has been built as a threat to Jade. She's getting a showcase win on Dynamite already, something Anna hasn't had in 2 year. Try and defend that
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Celgress
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Post by Celgress on Apr 12, 2022 23:45:54 GMT -5
I think what it boils down to is historically a lack of storylines. Until recently most of the women have had zero storylines instead just having random matches. Thankfully that seems to be slowly changing. The women I'm most interested in right now are Shida, Deeb, and Julia Hart because they have storylines rather than random matches. I was interested in Layla but that storyline has been derailed by her injury.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 13, 2022 0:00:47 GMT -5
I think what it boils down to is historically a lack of storylines. Until recently most of the women have had zero storylines instead just having random matches. Thankfully that seems to be slowly changing. The women I'm most interested in right now are Shida, Deeb, and Julia Hart because they have storylines rather than random matches. I was interested in Layla but that storyline has been derailed by her injury. Is there any confirmation on if Leyla's hurt badly though? I've heard nothing, her Twitter's been silent since last week. I don't see anything yet so I'm hoping this might just be a few weeks thing.
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Celgress
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Post by Celgress on Apr 13, 2022 0:21:55 GMT -5
I think what it boils down to is historically a lack of storylines. Until recently most of the women have had zero storylines instead just having random matches. Thankfully that seems to be slowly changing. The women I'm most interested in right now are Shida, Deeb, and Julia Hart because they have storylines rather than random matches. I was interested in Layla but that storyline has been derailed by her injury. Is there any confirmation on if Leyla's hurt badly though? I've heard nothing, her Twitter's been silent since last week. I don't see anything yet so I'm hoping this might just be a few weeks thing. I'm not sure. It is murky. I've also only heard that she is hurt and might be out for a while nothing more.
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