|
Post by Alice Syndrome on Jul 3, 2022 23:08:36 GMT -5
It really needs renaming.
What Xpac got pales in comparison to when Big Show and Kane got "Please Retire" chants.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,046
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 4, 2022 1:30:41 GMT -5
When the Invasion started, literally the entire WWF was getting face reactions against WCW/ECW guys week in, week out except 2 guys
RVD got face pops.
And, to the point that wizard of the mic Billy Kidman was able to dunk on him by pointing this out, and letting the chants go for a bit... X-Pac was hated, not for anything heelish he did, just for existing.
|
|
Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,913
|
Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jul 4, 2022 3:11:28 GMT -5
Other than having one of the worst theme songs in the history of wrestling with Uncle Kracker, I never minded him. But that theme song made one envy the deaf.
|
|
|
Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jul 4, 2022 7:15:39 GMT -5
It really needs renaming. What Xpac got pales in comparison to when Big Show and Kane got "Please Retire" chants. I always just call it "go away" or "change the channel" heat. It's more descriptive than X-Pac heat and doesn't single out a guy who deserves to be remembered for a lot more than one shitty 6 month period of his career.
|
|
|
Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Jul 4, 2022 8:59:43 GMT -5
The heel turn did him dirty. It made everything X-Pac fought for in 1999 pointless for the sake of a swerve. People really bought into the Kane and X-Pac team. Then he dumped Kane and nicked his girlfriend in a very dodgy angle too. And he never got his comeuppance, he just kept sneaking out. Yep, turning on Kane is the reason. X-Pac was popular when he came back to WWF in 1998, he was red f***ing hot in 1999. Like, as popular as he was in 98 that was nothing compared to 99. Not a stretch to say that the only guys more popular than him were the big 3 (Austin, Rock, and Foley). Dude was involved with main events, and fans were behind him as the underdog face. He teamed with Kane, and it took no time for them to get over as a team. Then he turned heel. That sunk how fans saw him because he was back to the same old same old, going right back to DX. Could have kept him as the underdog where he was a mix of X-Pac and Kid, but nope, couldn't have him stand up to DX and remain buddies with Kane.
|
|
auph10imitated
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 4,951
|
Post by auph10imitated on Jul 4, 2022 9:13:02 GMT -5
Yeah X-Pac was stale, his heel turn in 1999 through mid 2000 gained some actual heel heat because he still had momentum, I feel like it was July-August 2000 that the DX stuff with Road Dogg became stale, then came X-Factor in early 2001 which could have been good if it was him and Justin Credible, adding Albert (and the horrible music) didnt fit and from there on in, people just didnt want to see him
|
|
msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,444
|
Post by msc on Jul 4, 2022 9:40:46 GMT -5
The heel turn did him dirty. It made everything X-Pac fought for in 1999 pointless for the sake of a swerve. People really bought into the Kane and X-Pac team. Then he dumped Kane and nicked his girlfriend in a very dodgy angle too. And he never got his comeuppance, he just kept sneaking out. Yep, turning on Kane is the reason. X-Pac was popular when he came back to WWF in 1998, he was red f***ing hot in 1999. Like, as popular as he was in 98 that was nothing compared to 99. Not a stretch to say that the only guys more popular than him were the big 3 (Austin, Rock, and Foley). Dude was involved with main events, and fans were behind him as the underdog face. He teamed with Kane, and it took no time for them to get over as a team. Then he turned heel. That sunk how fans saw him because he was back to the same old same old, going right back to DX. Could have kept him as the underdog where he was a mix of X-Pac and Kid, but nope, couldn't have him stand up to DX and remain buddies with Kane. And he was a 200 pound guy in a land of giants who would stand up to The Undertaker or Big Show because it was the right thing to do. Kids loved him in 1999. It's the booking equivalent in 2022 of, as a closest equivalent, having Riddle or John Silver turn on Orton or Hangman Page now after everything they've been through. That fiery underdog the crowd genuinely loves becoming just another heel. I genuinely feel a sizeable chunk of the WWF fanbase felt betrayed by the decision and never forgave it, akin to how slightly older folk used to talk about Tatanka after his heel turn.
|
|
|
Post by BorneAgain on Jul 4, 2022 10:19:43 GMT -5
X-Pac could have mended fences with much of the audience circa 2001 if had said that he knows that they hate the X-Factor, but they ain't gotta look at him like that.
|
|
|
Post by sungod2020 on Jul 4, 2022 10:38:09 GMT -5
I really need to just stop entering threads about X-Pac heat because there are always people who completely nonsensically insist it doesn't exist and it always irritates me. Again, can you PROVE that they are booing the heel for non-kayfabe reasons? For a face we can make educated guesses, but with a heel, there's no way to tell since they all sound the same. Case in point, I remember one poster praising The Rock for insulting the fans and considered his insults clever. His explanation that The Rock worked hard on getting the desired reaction, where with X-pac not so much. I'm thinking, if The Rock has to WORK for those boos, while X-pac gets booed for just being who he is, wouldn't that make the former D-X member a better heel by default?
|
|
|
Post by sungod2020 on Jul 4, 2022 10:41:39 GMT -5
The heel turn did him dirty. It made everything X-Pac fought for in 1999 pointless for the sake of a swerve. People really bought into the Kane and X-Pac team. Then he dumped Kane and nicked his girlfriend in a very dodgy angle too. A nd he never got his comeuppance, he just kept sneaking out. That's actually not true. That tag team match at Wrestlemania 2000 where Kane pinned him with the tombstone can be seen as signaling the end of their feud.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,046
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 4, 2022 11:23:34 GMT -5
I really need to just stop entering threads about X-Pac heat because there are always people who completely nonsensically insist it doesn't exist and it always irritates me. Again, can you PROVE that they are booing the heel for non-kayfabe reasons? For a face we can make educated guesses, but with a heel, there's no way to tell since they all sound the same. Case in point, I remember one poster praising The Rock for insulting the fans and considered his insults clever. His explanation that The Rock worked hard on getting the desired reaction, where with X-pac not so much. I'm thinking, if The Rock has to WORK for those boos, while X-pac gets booed for just being who he is, wouldn't that make the former D-X member a better heel by default? Without a time machine and thousands of surveys, no, neither side can empirically prove it. As mentioned, there was a time, they turned the entire company face, and he was the only person who still got specific chants about how people didn't like him. As for "he didn't have to do anything to get booed". Well, is the job of a heel JUST to get booed? I'd argue no, it's for people to pay to see them in feuds with faces and draw money. People get annoyed with all kinds of things, doesn't mean they want to see them. The Rock worked at being booed... so that people would want to pay to see Steve Austin, Mick Foley etc. beat him. X-Pac was booed and... he was just booed. It's like the "heels have to work slow, methodical with lots of restholds so they won't get cheered" well no, they won't get cheered, they won't get much else either. The biggest heels of all time always had their fans because people wanted to see them fight, Savage, Flair, The Rock, Austin etc. all their heel runs got massive heat, and people wanted more.
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 4, 2022 11:27:09 GMT -5
I really need to just stop entering threads about X-Pac heat because there are always people who completely nonsensically insist it doesn't exist and it always irritates me. Without being ridiculous you can't actually objectively prove X Pac heat is real, you can't even definitely prove which guys are a draw or what a crowd is reacting to
|
|
|
Post by sungod2020 on Jul 4, 2022 12:12:31 GMT -5
Again, can you PROVE that they are booing the heel for non-kayfabe reasons? For a face we can make educated guesses, but with a heel, there's no way to tell since they all sound the same. Case in point, I remember one poster praising The Rock for insulting the fans and considered his insults clever. His explanation that The Rock worked hard on getting the desired reaction, where with X-pac not so much. I'm thinking, if The Rock has to WORK for those boos, while X-pac gets booed for just being who he is, wouldn't that make the former D-X member a better heel by default? Without a time machine and thousands of surveys, no, neither side can empirically prove it. As mentioned, there was a time, they turned the entire company face, and he was the only person who still got specific chants about how people didn't like him. As for "he didn't have to do anything to get booed". Well, is the job of a heel JUST to get booed? I'd argue no, it's for people to pay to see them in feuds with faces and draw money. People get annoyed with all kinds of things, doesn't mean they want to see them. The Rock worked at being booed... so that people would want to pay to see Steve Austin, Mick Foley etc. beat him. X-Pac was booed and... he was just booed. It's like the "heels have to work slow, methodical with lots of restholds so they won't get cheered" well no, they won't get cheered, they won't get much else either. The biggest heels of all time always had their fans because people wanted to see them fight, Savage, Flair, The Rock, Austin etc. all their heel runs got massive heat, and people wanted more. The problem with that is, they never did anything to make X-pac a babyface. He wasn't pandering to the fans, giving them high fives, or making pro-WWF speeches. If he was suppose to be a face, he wasn't doing a convincing job. He was the same old X-pac from the previous year, just with a WWF shirt on. I think that's management's fault more than anything Pac did or didn't do. I get his character might've been stale, directionless, and even WWF made fun of him for living in the past, but it's not like they were doing anything to make the fans LIKE him. He came off as a scummy heel that you just wanted to punch in the face, what more do you need? Better yet, what are better ways to book X-pac in 2001 so he can avoid this kind of heat?
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Jul 4, 2022 12:15:18 GMT -5
X-Pac was so over as the plucky underdog face in 1999 and the story with Kane was great. I still have no idea why they turned him heel other than for the sake of a swerve. His career was never the same after it.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,046
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 4, 2022 12:56:39 GMT -5
Without a time machine and thousands of surveys, no, neither side can empirically prove it. As mentioned, there was a time, they turned the entire company face, and he was the only person who still got specific chants about how people didn't like him. As for "he didn't have to do anything to get booed". Well, is the job of a heel JUST to get booed? I'd argue no, it's for people to pay to see them in feuds with faces and draw money. People get annoyed with all kinds of things, doesn't mean they want to see them. The Rock worked at being booed... so that people would want to pay to see Steve Austin, Mick Foley etc. beat him. X-Pac was booed and... he was just booed. It's like the "heels have to work slow, methodical with lots of restholds so they won't get cheered" well no, they won't get cheered, they won't get much else either. The biggest heels of all time always had their fans because people wanted to see them fight, Savage, Flair, The Rock, Austin etc. all their heel runs got massive heat, and people wanted more. The problem with that is, they never did anything to make X-pac a babyface. He wasn't pandering to the fans, giving them high fives, or making pro-WWF speeches. If he was suppose to be a face, he wasn't doing a convincing job. He was the same old X-pac from the previous year, just with a WWF shirt on. I think that's management's fault more than anything Pac did or didn't do. I get his character might've been stale, directionless, and even WWF made fun of him for living in the past, but it's not like they were doing anything to make the fans LIKE him. He came off as a scummy heel that you just wanted to punch in the face, what more do you need? Better yet, what are better ways to book X-pac in 2001 so he can avoid this kind of heat? Oh absolutely, they didn't do that, but they didn't give a lot of effort to most of the lower card heels who were meant to suddenly be face, which is what he sadly was at the time. Just slap on a WWF tshirt and go. Hell, they really should have considering this was one of the times they were giving a little bit of effort to the Light Heavyweight division, in preparation for getting the WCW Cruiserweight belt, he won the thing of Jeff Hardy and was essentially the WWF representative up against a key part of WCW. As a heel, I don't know how you'd salvage him, so I'd have used the Invasion to actually turn him face. They only had 2 weeks from the formation of The Alliance till Invasion, so let's go with that. July 9 Raw, Alliance formed. That week's Smackdown, X-Pac has a segment with X-Factor, talking to Justin Credible, who says it's all politics, he still has X-Pac's back. But later that night,they're part of a match, Alliance comes out, schmoz, Credible hits a Superkick and holds X-Pac down for Kidman to SSP him. The next RAW give him 2 minutes on one of the shows, say he thought he had a friend, was betrayed, he's gone down some dark paths, but that's over, he'll be back, defending the WWF because of the bad stuff WCW did to him, but also, it's personal. Smackdown, the big brawl to sell the PPV, there's a moment when the Invasion are getting the upper hand, say JC and Kidman are about to whack Kane from behind with a chair, X-Pac sprints out, jumps off the ropes, dropkicks the pair of them, Kane and him share a look, then it's all a big brawl etc. Comes out at Invasion with new tights, a haircut, maybe even a name change. It's super rushed, but that's the time they had, put him in multiman situations you can do several angles with since they'd never give the little guys division much time anyway. Acknowledges all the problems people had, the scuminess, how he treated Kane and his image. From there you can go on with him being a bit more serious, to go into the Angle/Jericho/Benoit kind of position and not look like a throwback. No idea if it'd work but hey, that'd be my plan.
|
|
msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,444
|
Post by msc on Jul 5, 2022 10:10:49 GMT -5
The heel turn did him dirty. It made everything X-Pac fought for in 1999 pointless for the sake of a swerve. People really bought into the Kane and X-Pac team. Then he dumped Kane and nicked his girlfriend in a very dodgy angle too. A nd he never got his comeuppance, he just kept sneaking out. That's actually not true. That tag team match at Wrestlemania 2000 where Kane pinned him with the tombstone can be seen as signaling the end of their feud. Just to sum up the feud by that point. October - X-Pac pinned Kane on PPV when still face. October/November - X-Pac turns heel on Kane. November - X-Pac/Kane on PPV. Kane wins by DQ when DX beat him up. X-Pac hits Kane's girlfriend. December - X-Pac/Kane on PPV. In a cage. Kane wins. Also December - X-Pac beats Tori, Kane's girlfriend, in a singles match with Kane getting all upset. Later December - X-Pac kidnaps Kane's girlfriend due to a match stipulation. January - Kane believes his girlfriend has PTSD from her treatment at X-Pac's hands. January 2000 - Rumble PPV. X-Pac cheats and eliminates Kane. Also January 2000 - Kane's girlfriend Tori turns on Kane and reveals she was in on all that abuse X-Pac was laying out. Because ewww. February 2000 - Kane returns with Paul Bearer as the new super powered angry face Kane. February 2000 - Kane/X-Pac on PPV. In a hardcore match. X-Pac beats Kane, again. WrestleMania 2000 - 7 months later, Kane beats X-Pac in a tag match. He was then immediately distracted from this nemesis because Pete Rose showed up, and it was WrestleMania. If ever a feud made both guys frozen heat wise. X-Pac never recovered. Even Kane was hobbling around aimlessly for most of the rest of the year (he turned heel a few times) before his Rumble 2001 performance won the crowds over again.
|
|
|
Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Jul 5, 2022 10:16:02 GMT -5
DX reuniting toward the end of 1999 was a mistake, I think. It made X-Pac, Road Dogg, and Billy Gunn all look like Triple H's lackeys, made even worse by the fact that he betrayed them so publicly earlier in the year. I know but where were they gonna go anyway? They peaked in terms of marketing and would slot into the lower card "nostalgia act" where they do their shtick fill out the show and lose alot. Like Scotty 2 Hotty. But unless they got alot better as wrestlers or reinvented themselves what juice was left with the 3 in terms of sustained pushes?
|
|