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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 20, 2022 5:13:21 GMT -5
People love THE REAL DRAMA in faux wrestling shows. That's been proven over and over again. People know wrestling is scripted and they don't care about that part, actually they like it whole a lot because of it. But what people passionately love is the real stuff and real relationship drama, to cut it short they like shoots. That's why the best feuds have been with people who can't stand each other in real life like Bret and Shawn or Hogan and Macho or Steiner and Flair. People aren't sure which way it's going to go and they are in anticipation what's going to happen next even the during "fake" wrestling match between the two who hate each others guts. They are anticipating that somehow script will derail at one point in the match. People believed Goldberg was for real every time when he fought, people believed CM Punk was for real when he did the pipe bomb, people believed Cena and Rock freestyled on the mic during head to head promo and list goes on and on. People didn't believe Goldberg was going against the script cause Russo didn't have the finesse to suspend our disbelief, you don't say to your audience that something is off the script you make them conclude that themselves. He did pull off Bash at the Beach shoot through by accident btw and that's his greatest worked shoot work. That actually turned into a shoot. If I was booking the promotion my main event would always be a battle between the talent that has issues in real life relationship. I agree with the crux of what you’re saying but that last bit sounds like a good way for a promoter to die early of stress. Also a great way to get your talent injured
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jul 20, 2022 12:31:21 GMT -5
Yea. I like Punk. But this was just your typical "Russo THIS IS REAL BRO' bs, but with people that a large portion of the audience liked. And like... didn't it not draw? I like the match, it's great, tho I think the SummerSlam rematch might be better. I heavily disagree with the comparison to Russo's worked shoots. What made the pipebomb work as opposed to Russo's shit is that nothing in Punk's promo suggested wrestling is fake. Even though the subtext relied on what was happening behind the scenes, every word Punk said made sense in kayfabe. Everything centered around Punk taking the title from John Cena in a wrestling match that happened to have a pre-determined outcome, not about the outcome actually being pre-determined, which is where Russo and the litany of TNA worked shoots went wrong. Yeah, Punk's promo gets into some backstage shit but it all 100% made sense in a kayfabe world. He never says anything about wrestling being a work, it's all about his boss being a dick and not giving him the same opportunities as the bosses favourites. There's been UFC fighters who have basically gone off on the same sorta rants in interviews
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 20, 2022 12:48:28 GMT -5
What's crazy besides how long it's been is just how quickly they squandered it away.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jul 20, 2022 13:36:42 GMT -5
I heavily disagree with the comparison to Russo's worked shoots. What made the pipebomb work as opposed to Russo's shit is that nothing in Punk's promo suggested wrestling is fake. Even though the subtext relied on what was happening behind the scenes, every word Punk said made sense in kayfabe. Everything centered around Punk taking the title from John Cena in a wrestling match that happened to have a pre-determined outcome, not about the outcome actually being pre-determined, which is where Russo and the litany of TNA worked shoots went wrong. Yeah, Punk's promo gets into some backstage shit but it all 100% made sense in a kayfabe world. He never says anything about wrestling being a work, it's all about his boss being a dick and not giving him the same opportunities as the bosses favourites. There's been UFC fighters who have basically gone off on the same sorta rants in interviews He literally used the term "I'm breaking the fourth wall." He said Rock and Cena were ass-kissers when on-screen they were always against Vince and the other authority figures (except Corporate Rock). He said he was a Paul Heyman guy and Heyman was always fighting for him behind the scenes which contradicts the whole first year of his career when Punk was a face on ECW and Heyman was the evil GM making his life difficult. He said he was the best in the ring from the day he arrived despite kayfabe wise there probably being at least 10-15 people ahead of him. In kayfabe he was getting the opportunities he deserved. He lost almost every PPV match for over a year prior to that promo, including title matches. Kept losing to Mysterio. Kept losing to Big Show. Kept losing to Orton. Failed to win the Rumble (despite having his own stable helping him). Failed to win the chamber. Why would someone like that deserve to be the top guy? The only way it makes sense narratively is if he's supposed to be an egomaniacal, whiny heel bitter because he keeps losing. A week or two later they turned him face though and we were supposed to sympathize with him. The only way you could sympathize with him though is in a non-kayfabe "damn, I wish they would book this guy to win more matches" way. Because if you were viewing it purely through on-screen stuff he was a guy who won 1 PPV match against Rey Mysterio after a year of losing and suddenly was demanding to be the main face on the posters, the commercials and on all the talk shows. That's delusional, entitled heel stuff. It didn't matter though because fans don't care about kayfabe anymore and just cheer whoever they want.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,612
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Post by Renslayer on Jul 20, 2022 14:00:25 GMT -5
Still need to buy that stone cold shirt punk wore for the pipe bomb promo
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jul 20, 2022 14:28:49 GMT -5
Yeah, Punk's promo gets into some backstage shit but it all 100% made sense in a kayfabe world. He never says anything about wrestling being a work, it's all about his boss being a dick and not giving him the same opportunities as the bosses favourites. There's been UFC fighters who have basically gone off on the same sorta rants in interviews That's a throw away line that could easily be explained away in kayfabe, "he's talking about how things work backstage". Doesn't mean he's saying wrestling is fake It's been established for years in WWE kayfabe that the board of directors, and for quite awhile, Linda had the ability to overrule Vince or the GM's. So once again, easy to explain without implying wrestling is fake Was Heyman making his life difficult? I honestly can't remember but Punk was only on TV for 3-4 months before Heyman quit ECW and honestly don't recall that era well. You might have me on that one, but WWE ignores history for the sake of a storyline all the time Arrogence? Hubris perhaps? Not sure if you've noticed, but heels tend to over inflate their importance It was intended to be a heel promo, he was supposed to come across as a delusional arrogant heel. The face turn was an audible when he agreed to re-sign with the company and they noticed how over he was getting, the promo works in kayfabe.
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Post by asellus on Jul 20, 2022 15:45:23 GMT -5
People love THE REAL DRAMA in faux wrestling shows. That's been proven over and over again. People know wrestling is scripted and they don't care about that part, actually they like it whole a lot because of it. But what people passionately love is the real stuff and real relationship drama, to cut it short they like shoots. That's why the best feuds have been with people who can't stand each other in real life like Bret and Shawn or Hogan and Macho or Steiner and Flair. People aren't sure which way it's going to go and they are in anticipation what's going to happen next even the during "fake" wrestling match between the two who hate each others guts. They are anticipating that somehow script will derail at one point in the match. People believed Goldberg was for real every time when he fought, people believed CM Punk was for real when he did the pipe bomb, people believed Cena and Rock freestyled on the mic during head to head promo and list goes on and on. People didn't believe Goldberg was going against the script cause Russo didn't have the finesse to suspend our disbelief, you don't say to your audience that something is off the script you make them conclude that themselves. He did pull off Bash at the Beach shoot through by accident btw and that's his greatest worked shoot work. That actually turned into a shoot. If I was booking the promotion my main event would always be a battle between the talent that has issues in real life relationship. WWE/F did that with Bret and Shawn and look how that turned out.
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The Blue Nova
Don Corleone
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 1,395
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Post by The Blue Nova on Jul 20, 2022 16:00:18 GMT -5
I think people look at this with rose coloured glasses. then again the summer of punk turned into HHH feuding with nash lol
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Post by evilone on Jul 20, 2022 16:41:33 GMT -5
People love THE REAL DRAMA in faux wrestling shows. That's been proven over and over again. People know wrestling is scripted and they don't care about that part, actually they like it whole a lot because of it. But what people passionately love is the real stuff and real relationship drama, to cut it short they like shoots. That's why the best feuds have been with people who can't stand each other in real life like Bret and Shawn or Hogan and Macho or Steiner and Flair. People aren't sure which way it's going to go and they are in anticipation what's going to happen next even the during "fake" wrestling match between the two who hate each others guts. They are anticipating that somehow script will derail at one point in the match. People believed Goldberg was for real every time when he fought, people believed CM Punk was for real when he did the pipe bomb, people believed Cena and Rock freestyled on the mic during head to head promo and list goes on and on. People didn't believe Goldberg was going against the script cause Russo didn't have the finesse to suspend our disbelief, you don't say to your audience that something is off the script you make them conclude that themselves. He did pull off Bash at the Beach shoot through by accident btw and that's his greatest worked shoot work. That actually turned into a shoot. If I was booking the promotion my main event would always be a battle between the talent that has issues in real life relationship. WWE/F did that with Bret and Shawn and look how that turned out. It turned out into the greatest shoot ever. 25 years later people still talk about it.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 21, 2022 4:29:23 GMT -5
I think people look at this with rose coloured glasses. then again the summer of punk turned into HHH feuding with nash lol Good. HHH and Nash were more likeable.
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Post by ANuclearError on Jul 21, 2022 5:03:15 GMT -5
What gets forgotten about when it comes to the PPV is that the rest of the show was still quite good on the whole. Bryan winning the Smackdown briefcase did plant the seeds for his rise for example.
With regards to the worked shoot promos, I've always felt that so long as it doesn't go full "people are booked to win or lose" type of stuff, I'm not all that fussed. From what I recall of those promos, it never felt like Punk treated the match against Cena itself as a work, but that Punk could say as much as he wanted, but he kept keyfabe in terms of "I need to legitimately beat Cena".
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,833
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Post by 4real on Jul 21, 2022 12:24:46 GMT -5
That feud made me feel like I was in 1998-2001 again and was excited about watching wrestling weekly again. It felt like the Attitude era in terms of excitement. But of course WWE poured cold water all over it.
That PPV is great though. Two excellent title matches and MITB matches. Even the Mark Henry v Big Show match was fine as it was right at the start of Henry’s Hall Of Pain push.
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The Blue Nova
Don Corleone
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Posts: 1,395
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Post by The Blue Nova on Jul 30, 2022 13:41:25 GMT -5
I think people look at this with rose coloured glasses. then again the summer of punk turned into HHH feuding with nash lol Good. HHH and Nash were more likeable. Im a huge nash mark lol
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jul 30, 2022 13:55:50 GMT -5
Yeah, never heard anyone claim it changed the business, just that it was a brief flicker of a hot new storyline before the same thing as every other angle happened to it. I think people big up the angle for the potential it could have had, but 6 months' worth of booking ruined it. 1) WWE rushed Punk back to TV way too soon. 2) WWE also rushed creating a new WWE title too soon. 3) John Cena being a total jerk and wanting a main event title match with Rey Mysterio on the same night Mysterio won the new WWE title. 3a) Rey Mysterio being a dumbass for agreeing to have the match with Cena. 4) WWE not sending Punk out to other wrestling companies to really lean into the "who's the real WWE champion" idea. 5) WWE not sending Punk into mainstream media to talk up the question of who is the real WWE champion. The most pop culture thing Punk did was troll Triple H at SDCC. 6) WWE doing the Punk/Cena rematch at Summerslam instead of Night of Champions. 7) Triple H going over Punk at Night of Champions and the general Kevin Nash-ness of the angle that led to Triple H/Nash in a sledgehammer ladder match at the end of the year. 8) Alberto Del Rio existing.
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