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Post by PTBartman on Nov 11, 2022 12:33:24 GMT -5
Another name that should be mentioned in this discussion - Bobby Heenan. Managed two of the WM opponents for Hogan, managed many of the most important heels of the 80s and early 90s, was the heel color commentator and derided that coward Marty for jumping through the window to escape. I was going to mention this.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Nov 11, 2022 12:43:08 GMT -5
It is interesting that the other heels mentioned are usually said in the same breath with the faces they fought.
WWE succeeded in making Roman the only focus and even as a heel. Took 6 years of BS but they did it.
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Post by MrElijah on Nov 11, 2022 12:44:22 GMT -5
Important WWF Non Wrestling Heels-Heenan, McMahon, Albano, Blassie, Grand Wizard
Important WWF Inring Heels-Billy Graham, Andre, Roddy Piper, The Rock, Iron Sheik, Ivan Koloff
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Post by Feyrhausen on Nov 11, 2022 12:57:42 GMT -5
It is interesting that the other heels mentioned are usually said in the same breath with the faces they fought. WWE succeeded in making Roman the only focus and even as a heel. Took 6 years of BS but they did it. It didnt take any time at all once they got their heads out of their asses. They booked Roman to his strengths and didnt try to make him John Cena 2.0. If he had been booked like this from the beginning as a face he would be one of the most popular of all time.
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dbrussel
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Post by dbrussel on Nov 11, 2022 13:24:07 GMT -5
Nope. He's not even a heel in my book.
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J is Justice
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Post by J is Justice on Nov 11, 2022 13:37:03 GMT -5
I'd put Vince, Hollywood Hulk and Triple H above him.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Nov 11, 2022 13:50:28 GMT -5
One other thought. Important heels were the ones that drew money. Piper and Vince were far more important as them acting as foils for Hogan and Stone Cold saved the company.
Roman is no more important than any other wrestler. If Roman quit tomorrow they would slot someone else in his spot and keep making money.
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Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Nov 11, 2022 14:30:40 GMT -5
We've got all this way without anyone mentioning Buddy Rogers. That he was a bigger draw than Thesz in the northeast in the fifties and early sixties is pretty much why the modern day WWE exists.
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Post by Aceorton on Nov 11, 2022 14:35:34 GMT -5
"Important" is such a subjective term. I take it to mean "without them, the company wouldn't have succeeded in major ways and probably would look much different today." By that definition, I'd put a lot of heels from the '80s and '90s boom periods ahead of Roman for either cementing the company nationally, defining the Attitude Era or putting it over the top in the Monday Night Wars to set up what modern wrestling has become.
Piper, Heenan, Savage, Andre, 1997 HBK, 1998 Rock, Vince McMahon, Angle and probably Triple H were all more important heels than Roman for me (although eventually I think he'll overtake Triple H). I like Roman a lot, but he's not changing the business as an on-screen character or causing it to catch fire.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 11, 2022 14:45:44 GMT -5
One other thought. Important heels were the ones that drew money. Piper and Vince were far more important as them acting as foils for Hogan and Stone Cold saved the company. Roman is no more important than any other wrestler. If Roman quit tomorrow they would slot someone else in his spot and keep making money. That’s the nature of how the business works now with TV rights fees being the driving force for revenue. By that measure, no one today in any company could ever be “important.”
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Post by Feyrhausen on Nov 11, 2022 14:53:17 GMT -5
One other thought. Important heels were the ones that drew money. Piper and Vince were far more important as them acting as foils for Hogan and Stone Cold saved the company. Roman is no more important than any other wrestler. If Roman quit tomorrow they would slot someone else in his spot and keep making money. That’s the nature of how the business works now with TV rights fees being the driving force for revenue. By that measure, no one today in any company could ever be “important.” Yep. Not coming down on Roman. No one today can be considered a star compared to past stars. No one has to draw money. No one really makes any difference. Its like TNA in the mid late 2000s. They drew a steady audience with very minor fluctuation. You could add Christian or Kurt Angle for a small bump but it always went back to normal.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 11, 2022 14:59:05 GMT -5
That’s the nature of how the business works now with TV rights fees being the driving force for revenue. By that measure, no one today in any company could ever be “important.” Yep. Not coming down on Roman. No one today can be considered a star compared to past stars. No one has to draw money. No one really makes any difference. Its like TNA in the mid late 2000s. They drew a steady audience with very minor fluctuation. You could add Christian or Kurt Angle for a small bump but it always went back to normal. That’s only if you equate being a star to meaning “makes a demonstrable difference to the bottom line.” You can also judge who is most important from an on-screen/product perspective. There’re also numbers I’m sure Meltzer has reported on showing that Reigns is a needle mover in terms of ratings and attendance, those just don’t necessarily mean as much in terms of direct dollar impact as they used to.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Nov 11, 2022 15:03:54 GMT -5
Yep. Not coming down on Roman. No one today can be considered a star compared to past stars. No one has to draw money. No one really makes any difference. Its like TNA in the mid late 2000s. They drew a steady audience with very minor fluctuation. You could add Christian or Kurt Angle for a small bump but it always went back to normal. That’s only if you equate being a star to meaning “makes a demonstrable difference to the bottom line.” You can also judge who is most important from an on-screen/product perspective. There’re also numbers I’m sure Meltzer has reported on showing that Reigns is a needle mover in terms of ratings and attendance, those just don’t necessarily mean as much in terms of direct dollar impact as they used to. That is how you judge who is a star. And WWE has no real stars. They have people who they tell you are stars. And if Roman quit tomorrow he would be a nobody. Because WWE would simply move on, pick a new star and push him as the star. Roman may move the needle slightly but anyone remotely credible given his push would do the same.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 11, 2022 15:17:33 GMT -5
That’s only if you equate being a star to meaning “makes a demonstrable difference to the bottom line.” You can also judge who is most important from an on-screen/product perspective. There’re also numbers I’m sure Meltzer has reported on showing that Reigns is a needle mover in terms of ratings and attendance, those just don’t necessarily mean as much in terms of direct dollar impact as they used to. That is how you judge who is a star. And WWE has no real stars. They have people who they tell you are stars. And if Roman quit tomorrow he would be a nobody. Because WWE would simply move on, pick a new star and push him as the star. Roman may move the needle slightly but anyone remotely credible given his push would do the same. Four things there you’re stating as a conclusory fact but there’s no backup to: 1. “That is how you judge a star.” Says who? 2. “WWE has no real stars.” Again, according to who? 3. “If Roman quit tomorrow he would be a nobody.” Really? Or would he be a highly sought after player by AEW who might have a demonstrable impact on ratings, attendance and TV rights deals? I tend to believe the latter. 4. “Anyone remotely credible given his push would do the same.” How can you be sure of that? He’s been extremely entertaining and over with the crowd (in terms of those that do watch the shows) so someone similarly pushed might have caused a mass exodus in terms of ratings and attendance if they weren’t as entertaining.
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Post by cornettesracket on Nov 12, 2022 10:28:34 GMT -5
No. That all time bit means it’s a no for me. Yes, he’s going to be up there with the best of this generation overall, but of all time ? Sorry he’s not.
I mean you have mr McMahon for a start who was the perfect foil for Austin and was just gold and I still look at it fondly.
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Post by Sephiroth on Nov 12, 2022 10:43:04 GMT -5
Andre maybe? His match with Hogan at WM3 is still possibly the biggest match ever and their rematch on The Main Event in 1988 drew an an insane TV rating. Andre and Mister McMahon
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Nov 12, 2022 10:45:12 GMT -5
In terms of being the biggest “main guy” heel. Oh for sure. This run has done great business. In WWE they really haven’t had a ton of main event heel runs that draw money or happen at all. It’s this Roman run and what? The Triple H reign of terror that killed off whatever remaining attitude era momentum the company had left
In terms of most important it’s probably Piper for launching the rock and wrestling thing or Mr McMahon
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Nov 12, 2022 11:39:17 GMT -5
In terms of being the biggest “main guy” heel. Oh for sure. This run has done great business. In WWE they really haven’t had a ton of main event heel runs that draw money or happen at all. It’s this Roman run and what? The Triple H reign of terror that killed off whatever remaining attitude era momentum the company had left HHH had a ton of massive PPV buyrates as a heel. Probably more than any heel ever. And his feuds with Foley/Rock/Angle/Austin/Batista all did great ratings. And I don't buy that it was all due to the opponents. If HHH's wasn't such the perfect heel foil then shows like Backlash 2000/Vengeance 2005/No Way Out 2000/WM 21 don't do such insane numbers. Piper was a big draw as a heel too. Again Hogan would have drawn good numbers against almost anyone but few were better than Piper. The first 2 wrestling PPVs ever were sold in large part on people wanting to see Hogan beat up Piper. Andre also drew great as a heel. He was the main heel for WM 3-4, the first Survivor Series and the first Summerslam.
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Nosnorb
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Post by Nosnorb on Nov 12, 2022 11:43:57 GMT -5
In terms of being the biggest “main guy” heel. Oh for sure. This run has done great business. In WWE they really haven’t had a ton of main event heel runs that draw money or happen at all. It’s this Roman run and what? The Triple H reign of terror that killed off whatever remaining attitude era momentum the company had left HHH had a ton of massive PPV buyrates as a heel. Probably more than any heel ever. And his feuds with Foley/Rock/Angle/Austin/Batista all did great ratings. And I don't buy that it was all due to the opponents. If HHH's wasn't such the perfect heel foil then shows like Backlash 2000/Vengeance 2005/No Way Out 2000/WM 21 don't do such insane numbers. Piper was a big draw as a heel too. Again Hogan would have drawn good numbers against almost anyone but few were better than Piper. The first 2 wrestling PPVs ever were sold in large part on people wanting to see Hogan beat up Piper. Andre also drew great as a heel. He was the main heel for WM 3-4, the first Survivor Series and the first Summerslam. I would add to that Edge. He popped huge numbers when he cashed in on Cena and his feud with John did excellent business.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Nov 12, 2022 13:16:13 GMT -5
HHH had a ton of massive PPV buyrates as a heel. Probably more than any heel ever. And his feuds with Foley/Rock/Angle/Austin/Batista all did great ratings. And I don't buy that it was all due to the opponents. If HHH's wasn't such the perfect heel foil then shows like Backlash 2000/Vengeance 2005/No Way Out 2000/WM 21 don't do such insane numbers. Piper was a big draw as a heel too. Again Hogan would have drawn good numbers against almost anyone but few were better than Piper. The first 2 wrestling PPVs ever were sold in large part on people wanting to see Hogan beat up Piper. Andre also drew great as a heel. He was the main heel for WM 3-4, the first Survivor Series and the first Summerslam. I would add to that Edge. He popped huge numbers when he cashed in on Cena and his feud with John did excellent business. See but I wouldn’t say Edge was the main guy on the show. WWE didnt really book Heels as their centerpiece the way Crockett did with Flair. Triple H was the main heel in the 2000s and the Batista feud but Rock/Austin and Batista were the main characters in those programs. The focus of the show.
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