ChitownKnight
El Dandy
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Post by ChitownKnight on Dec 26, 2022 13:35:26 GMT -5
In wwe’s entire existence, wwe has been a babyface promotion. Even when HHH was the guy on Raw, you had babyface Brock to counteract that on Smackdown (and his 03 heel title run was short lived). I think this is the first time we had a John Cena like face of the company as a heel in Roman. I like the change of pace after a decade of face Cena and 5 years of a failed face Roman.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Dec 26, 2022 13:37:31 GMT -5
I tend to favour the dominant heel, babyface chase style of booking but honestly it's probably the best to change it up as necessary.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 26, 2022 13:43:47 GMT -5
I think it's hard to sustain a top heel for a long time because they end up getting cheered since people like winners.
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Squirrel Master
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Squirrel Master on Dec 26, 2022 13:58:40 GMT -5
NWA was great at such booking. The formula worked for the dirtiest player in the game Nature Boy Ric Flair in his prime; it seemed right. I simply enjoy wrestling better when then babyfaces are oppressed and must work hard to reach the pinnacle.
H was a big fan of NWA/JCP growing up so we should be seeing this style time and again. Plus, the champion can be turned as necessary in accordance with the booking needs of the day (e.g. injuries thinning the roster and/or sudden surges in a wrestler’s popularity).
Look to early 90s WCW for the templates: how they paired new champion Lex Luger with Harley Race and Mr. Hughes to create instant heat! Or vice versa with Flair contrasting greatly with Big Van Vader. This style of booking leaves many options open, so I am all for it.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 26, 2022 14:27:49 GMT -5
NWA was great at such booking. The formula worked for the dirtiest player in the game Nature Boy Ric Flair in his prime; it seemed right. I simply enjoy wrestling better when then babyfaces are oppressed and must work hard to reach the pinnacle. H was a big fan of NWA/JCP growing up so we should be seeing this style time and again. Plus, the champion can be turned as necessary in accordance with the booking needs of the day (e.g. injuries thinning the roster and/or sudden surges in a wrestler’s popularity). Look to early 90s WCW for the templates: how they paired new champion Lex Luger with Harley Race and Mr. Hughes to create instant heat! Or vice versa with Flair contrasting greatly with Big Van Vader. This style of booking leaves many options open, so I am all for it. I usually feel hhh uses nwa as a template but fails to adjust it for the amount of hours WWE produce. Personally it's not for me, the eventual payoff rarely justifies the path to get there. |
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Post by Fake Jesus on Dec 26, 2022 14:38:15 GMT -5
WWE has been a heel promotion for most of the last 20 years
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Dec 26, 2022 14:48:10 GMT -5
I've pretty much always hated the idea of having one central main character in wrestling but it's like 800,000 times worse as a heel.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2022 15:22:38 GMT -5
NWA was great at such booking. The formula worked for the dirtiest player in the game Nature Boy Ric Flair in his prime; it seemed right. I simply enjoy wrestling better when then babyfaces are oppressed and must work hard to reach the pinnacle. H was a big fan of NWA/JCP growing up so we should be seeing this style time and again. Plus, the champion can be turned as necessary in accordance with the booking needs of the day (e.g. injuries thinning the roster and/or sudden surges in a wrestler’s popularity). Look to early 90s WCW for the templates: how they paired new champion Lex Luger with Harley Race and Mr. Hughes to create instant heat! Or vice versa with Flair contrasting greatly with Big Van Vader. This style of booking leaves many options open, so I am all for it. I usually feel hhh uses nwa as a template but fails to adjust it for the amount of hours WWE produce. Personally it's not for me, the eventual payoff rarely justifies the path to get there.
The "heel champ who holds the belt for 8000 years" thing worked in the territory days of Flair and Race because those guys were traveling all the time and never got overly exposed on TV. You'd book your territory's top act (a babyface, naturally) to come up just within a fingernail of beating the nasty heel, and then even though your guy didn't win the belt, he'd maybe get a moral victory by kicking the champ's ass after the bell. It was a simple but effective business strategy.
That... doesn't really work when you have 5 hours of primetime TV to fill each week. It's a problem for ANY champion, but with a heel champ especially, such a long reign comes at the expense of all of your top babyfaces, and just ends up turning your heel into a face because people love a winner.
It's why I've been hyper-critical of Roman's title reign
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 26, 2022 16:21:23 GMT -5
What made the 1980s the decade that brought WWE to its pinnacle was the steadyish world champion on top of the pile who fought off numerous potential contenders. That freed up booking attention to bring interest to the I-C title, the tag titles and a card full of interesting feuds and angles.
A heel champion as overprotected as Roman has been is a recipe for a loss of interest in the world titles such that whoever does end up beating him for the title will not be feted so mucb as they'd get the "Oh, well, he'll probably lose it again in two weeks" or "Who cares? Roman lost only because the bookers wanted the title off him." It's become a deeply meta title reign that not even the Sami stuff will be able to conquer in kayfabe.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 26, 2022 16:30:42 GMT -5
I usually feel hhh uses nwa as a template but fails to adjust it for the amount of hours WWE produce. Personally it's not for me, the eventual payoff rarely justifies the path to get there. The "heel champ who holds the belt for 8000 years" thing worked in the territory days of Flair and Race because those guys were traveling all the time and never got overly exposed on TV. You'd book your territory's top act (a babyface, naturally) to come up just within a fingernail of beating the nasty heel, and then even though your guy didn't win the belt, he'd maybe get a moral victory by kicking the champ's ass after the bell. It was a simple but effective business strategy.
That... doesn't really work when you have 5 hours of primetime TV to fill each week. It's a problem for ANY champion, but with a heel champ especially, such a long reign comes at the expense of all of your top babyfaces, and just ends up turning your heel into a face because people love a winner.
It's why I've been hyper-critical of Roman's title reign
Exactly. That heel champ was not the focus of a promotion. He only popped in a few times a year to give the territory a boost. The babyface sold tickets week in week out. Heel territories generally died quickly unless they had a gimmick. When people got tired of the hardcore stuff the Sheiks promotion died. When Crockett basically became the NWA and tried to run it with a heel champ as the focus it failed miserably. Who looked like the big deal? The WWF with their badass hero vanquishing all challengers? Or the NWA with their flabby weakling who gets his ass kicked until his buddies save him or he gets DQed to escape? Even the NWA babyfaces were losers who couldnt get the job done. |
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Dec 26, 2022 17:42:16 GMT -5
I get enough fill of seeing assholes come out on top in real life, so seeing it in wrestling can be a bit too much at times.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 26, 2022 17:47:58 GMT -5
I get enough fill of seeing assholes come out on top in real life, so seeing it in wrestling can be a bit too much at times. Yeah imagine if every episode of the A Team ended with the bad guys beating them up and kicking them out of town. Sure maybe the producers were going to let them win in the season finale but how many viewers would be watching by that point? WWE has just mostly hit the point where the majority of their audience is their base audience. The never going to stop watching audience. They may tune in and out depending on whats going on with sports and the like but it likely wont change much. So WWE can pretty much do what they want without caring how the viewers feel. |
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Dec 26, 2022 18:42:21 GMT -5
I think Roman (and WWE) has made it work. Sami and the usos/solo have helped the whole package the last few months.
I like it. Roman’s cool but he’s an asshole. Holding BOTH titles is trash but a heel being “The Guy?” It’s clearly worked with Roman. It’s literally what made his character “click”, after years of fans saying to turn him.
Also makes one wonder if they could/should have pulled the trigger on Cena too.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 26, 2022 19:05:23 GMT -5
I get enough fill of seeing assholes come out on top in real life, so seeing it in wrestling can be a bit too much at times. Yeah imagine if every episode of the A Team ended with the bad guys beating them up and kicking them out of town. Sure maybe the producers were going to let them win in the season finale but how many viewers would be watching by that point? WWE has just mostly hit the point where the majority of their audience is their base audience. The never going to stop watching audience. They may tune in and out depending on whats going on with sports and the like but it likely wont change much. So WWE can pretty much do what they want without caring how the viewers feel. Its noteworthy though how one of the most successful shows in recent memory, Game of Thrones, had the "heels" winning quiet often. |
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Dec 26, 2022 19:25:24 GMT -5
I get enough fill of seeing assholes come out on top in real life, so seeing it in wrestling can be a bit too much at times. Yeah imagine if every episode of the A Team ended with the bad guys beating them up and kicking them out of town. Sure maybe the producers were going to let them win in the season finale but how many viewers would be watching by that point? WWE has just mostly hit the point where the majority of their audience is their base audience. The never going to stop watching audience. They may tune in and out depending on whats going on with sports and the like but it likely wont change much. So WWE can pretty much do what they want without caring how the viewers feel. I hope people don’t misinterpret my point as me never wanting heels to win. It’s fine if they stand tall a few times, but only if the story is designed for them to lose in the end. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2022 10:34:58 GMT -5
Yeah imagine if every episode of the A Team ended with the bad guys beating them up and kicking them out of town. Sure maybe the producers were going to let them win in the season finale but how many viewers would be watching by that point? WWE has just mostly hit the point where the majority of their audience is their base audience. The never going to stop watching audience. They may tune in and out depending on whats going on with sports and the like but it likely wont change much. So WWE can pretty much do what they want without caring how the viewers feel. Its noteworthy though how one of the most successful shows in recent memory, Game of Thrones, had the "heels" winning quiet often.
And they bungled the finish to that storyline, too :-P
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 27, 2022 15:59:02 GMT -5
Its noteworthy though how one of the most successful shows in recent memory, Game of Thrones, had the "heels" winning quiet often. And they bungled the finish to that storyline, too :-P
I mean true, but the early seasons that people liked had heel dominance. |
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 27, 2022 16:00:37 GMT -5
It's easier to book, as the babyfaces are much more sympathetic chasing than holding the title. Even Dusty and Sting when they would finally beat Flair, it was a bit of "ok, now what?". Hogan fit the 80's vibe perfectly as a babyface/protagonist. The look, the big jock persona & Austin and Rock fit their generation perfectly as well. Punk, Danielson & Moxley are the best fits as babyface champions that they've had and all of them are now gone.
Cody getting the belt from Roman will be a great moment, but the audience will turn him heel in a matter of months.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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This avatar is so far out of date I might as well stick with it forever now.
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 27, 2022 16:00:49 GMT -5
Another popular show with a lot of heel dominance before the face comes out on top: Season 1 of Daredevil. The heels winning at every turn for most of the season was downright oppressive and it added to the overall atmosphere and is why Season 1 worked so well in my opinion.
There's also a lot of heel victory to deal with in The Walking Dead.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 27, 2022 16:28:02 GMT -5
Another popular show with a lot of heel dominance before the face comes out on top: Season 1 of Daredevil. The heels winning at every turn for most of the season was downright oppressive and it added to the overall atmosphere and is why Season 1 worked so well in my opinion. There's also a lot of heel victory to deal with in The Walking Dead. Yes but you can watch all of a season in a day and get your happy ending. As opposed to having to watch the bad guy win every week for years. |
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