Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
|
Post by Dave at the Movies on Mar 18, 2023 8:21:53 GMT -5
So I've been watching old WWF and WCW in chronological order and I'm currently on March of 1997 and I've noticed that the actual wrestling in general just isn't as consistently good as it is in WWE and AEW today.
I get there is an evolution and all that but damn is it very obviously when you go back and see the difference. Sure there are exceptions with guys like Dean Malenko but overall a lot of wrestlers that were on national TV back then just weren't as good overall in the ring.
Am I crazy for thinking this? 🤔
|
|
|
Post by Tiger Millionaire on Mar 18, 2023 8:24:36 GMT -5
No, the wrestling is better now; maybe even too good.
|
|
|
Post by Natural Born Farmer on Mar 18, 2023 9:12:31 GMT -5
The in-ring aspect of pro wrestling is better now than it's ever been, for sure.
|
|
XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,569
|
Post by XIII on Mar 18, 2023 9:25:55 GMT -5
I mean you can get a 4-5 star match on free tv pretty regularly these days so the matches are definitely better overall.
|
|
fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,064
|
Post by fw91 on Mar 18, 2023 9:43:38 GMT -5
All a matter of perspective. Imo, What good is workrate if you don’t care about the story or people involved? Others may value workrate more than other elements.
|
|
|
Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Mar 18, 2023 9:47:38 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s a definitive answer because it depends on what style of wrestling you prefer. I was never a big fan of squash matches in the ‘80s because even as a kid who still kinda thought it was real, I knew those guys didn’t have a chance. But the bigger matches, I can watch them today, having seen them a million times before, and still get more drawn in than I can with the majority of matches today. The last part of this year’s men’s Rumble is a notable current example. Cody and Gunther had me invested and even though I went in expecting Cody to win, they managed to make me give it a second thought.
I think the matches are certainly more athletic today, and everyone is willing to do more. But for me, that doesn’t usually translate to a better match.
|
|
|
Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Mar 18, 2023 10:03:45 GMT -5
I’d say the athleticism and innovation are at all-time highs but that can also lead to much more contrived matches. It’s definitely closer to performance art than the pseudo-sport it used to aim for.
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 18, 2023 10:24:09 GMT -5
What even is good wrestling?
|
|
Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,586
|
Post by Bo Rida on Mar 18, 2023 10:25:19 GMT -5
Yes in the sense that both what's considered average and what's considered good enough to feature in a major promotion is way higher. There's multiple fantastic matches every week, most wrestlers are athletic and there's very little that's as bad as gang warz or the worst of the diva search era.
The best of now Vs best of other eras is much more subjective.
|
|
XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,569
|
Post by XIII on Mar 18, 2023 14:52:27 GMT -5
All a matter of perspective. Imo, What good is workrate if you don’t care about the story or people involved? Others may value workrate more than other elements. I 100% agree but I was under the impression that we were just talking straight in ring action without consideration of anything else? 🤷🏻♂️
|
|
fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,064
|
Post by fw91 on Mar 18, 2023 15:05:37 GMT -5
All a matter of perspective. Imo, What good is workrate if you don’t care about the story or people involved? Others may value workrate more than other elements. I 100% agree but I was under the impression that we were just talking straight in ring action without consideration of anything else? 🤷🏻♂️ I thought we were talking about matches in general not technical stuff. My bad
|
|
FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,435
|
Post by FinalGwen on Mar 18, 2023 15:06:07 GMT -5
Recently for Valentines Day a Discord server I'm on had a watchalong of the St Valentines Day Massacre PPV.
If a single match on a modern PPV was on the level of most matches on that card, it'd be considered a huge letdown as a show by modern standards.
|
|
|
Post by Jindrak Mark on Mar 18, 2023 15:13:55 GMT -5
In terms of athleticism and/or the type of thing that rates highly on like a Dave Meltzer star rating scale definitely the quality of wrestling is higher on average. Hardly a week goes by without fans raving about a bunch of "bangers" happening on regular TV shows.
I do miss the days though when PPVs were the place to get your great matches and TV was mostly about angles and short matches with maybe one longer match. Anytime I remember talking with other fans in real life being excited about something it was 90% about some story beat, not an actual match. I don't need to see a bunch of epics every week especially on TV interrupted by commercials which takes me out of it. I end up just desensitized to them. I was in awe when I first saw the TLC match at Wrestlemania X7 but nowadays people can do as crazy bumps on TV and I don't blink an eye or care.
I'll always take a 3 and a half star match were I care about the outcome over a 4 and a half star match I'm not invested in. Or a couple specific examples from this week, give me KO/Sami finally hugging it out or the Elite standing up for Hangman over a random great match.
|
|
|
Post by Jaws the Shark on Mar 18, 2023 15:19:52 GMT -5
All a matter of perspective. Imo, What good is workrate if you don’t care about the story or people involved? Others may value workrate more than other elements. I would argue that if a match doesn't have a clear story being told then it doesn't have good workrate. "Workrate" has become shorthand for "loads of moves" and I don't think that's what it is at all, it's the amount of effort that goes into telling the story of the match and making sure that the things you do matter.
|
|
|
Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Mar 18, 2023 15:29:58 GMT -5
Recently for Valentines Day a Discord server I'm on had a watchalong of the St Valentines Day Massacre PPV. If a single match on a modern PPV was on the level of most matches on that card, it'd be considered a huge letdown as a show by modern standards. On one hand, I don't disagree that the match quality during this specific time period was not good. And for "workrate" or whatever, the actual moves and holds that take place inside the ring, I'd much rather watch a throwaway match from today than during the Attitude Era. On the other hand, take a look at the talent on that card who were over (or would soon be over during the Attitude Era) in a big way. How many wrestlers today wish they were as over as a lower card act like Al Snow was in 1999? If you're over, you don't have to worry about wrestling better. If you're not over, it doesn't really matter if your wrestling is the best, realest, coolest looking stuff to exist. Having kind of gotten back into wrestling recently, watching PPVs from both WWE and AEW, there are only a handful of talents who stand out, who are over, while everyone else recedes into the background either as a time-occupier or a placeholder or a warm body to fill up a match.
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on Mar 18, 2023 15:43:50 GMT -5
IMO, not just the athleticism, but in-ring storytelling is better than it's ever been.
100% agree with your definition of workrate. I've never seen impressive moves for the sake of impressive moves as good workrate. That's more a spotfest. It's the amount of effort of the opponents put into telling the story of the match.
|
|
Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,586
|
Post by Bo Rida on Mar 18, 2023 15:59:36 GMT -5
Recently for Valentines Day a Discord server I'm on had a watchalong of the St Valentines Day Massacre PPV. If a single match on a modern PPV was on the level of most matches on that card, it'd be considered a huge letdown as a show by modern standards. <cut for space> Having kind of gotten back into wrestling recently, watching PPVs from both WWE and AEW, there are only a handful of talents who stand out, who are over, while everyone else recedes into the background either as a time-occupier or a placeholder or a warm body to fill up a match. Out of intrest who were those people that stood out?
|
|
魔界5号
Hank Scorpio
No. 1 FAN Poster You Want To Hug
Posts: 6,323
|
Post by 魔界5号 on Mar 18, 2023 16:51:30 GMT -5
In America, absolutely. I tried going back to watch some old episodes of Raw and Smackdown a few years ago and the match quality is absolutely godawful, even in the 2000s it was largely shit aside from the odd decent main event or random match. The focus on in-ring product has definitely increased in recent years and for the better.
|
|
|
Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Mar 18, 2023 17:00:33 GMT -5
The bar has undoubtedly been raised, but that means it takes that much more to stand out, especially since most wrestling shows are at a minimum two hours and there's more accessible options than ever before for not a lot of money.
A match that would have been a standout on a WCW 1998 PPV would be a decent match on a 2023 Raw that 95% of the audience would have a passing memory of in a month.
|
|
|
Post by Red Mage Riot on Mar 18, 2023 17:06:14 GMT -5
I think so yes, I would much rather watch any modern wrestling today over say, Don Muraco and Dino Bravo exchanging sweaty bear hugs for 15+ minutes, to be sure.
|
|