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Post by Aceorton on Apr 5, 2023 21:08:00 GMT -5
I can't wait for the part where they (including Heyman, smarmy as ever) suggest Cody just didn't have what it takes to be "the guy," as if he brought this on himself.
But first, I can't wait for the inevitable Cody IC or U.S. title win where he acts as if he just won the big one and he's now on top of the world.
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Post by Topher is Human on Apr 5, 2023 22:15:51 GMT -5
Who has demonstrably come out of their matches against Roman looking better? That shit doesn't just happen automatically, it takes a really well executed match plus well thought out booking to ensure that a loss still serves as a building block for the talent involved. Plus, yeah, this kind of thing doesn't work as well with a heel champion when you have weekly TV to fill up. It could work in ECW with Douglas since he wasn't highly featured on every weekly TV show, it worked in the past with a champ like Okada because he's more an ace than a pure face or heel, etc. Literally only Sami Zayn and Jey USO. But that was an entire card ascension. Like they came out a star after the loss, but would’ve been bigger if they won. Everyone else looked much, much worse afterwards and it’s been 3 years.
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Post by CubsFan71 on Apr 5, 2023 22:19:44 GMT -5
I get what he’s trying to say here. It’s a load of horseshit but I get it
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 8,377
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Post by Nosnorb on Apr 5, 2023 22:33:26 GMT -5
Who has demonstrably come out of their matches against Roman looking better? That shit doesn't just happen automatically, it takes a really well executed match plus well thought out booking to ensure that a loss still serves as a building block for the talent involved. Plus, yeah, this kind of thing doesn't work as well with a heel champion when you have weekly TV to fill up. It could work in ECW with Douglas since he wasn't highly featured on every weekly TV show, it worked in the past with a champ like Okada because he's more an ace than a pure face or heel, etc. Literally only Sami Zayn and Jey USO. But that was an entire card ascension. Like they came out a star after the loss, but would’ve been bigger if they won. Everyone else looked much, much worse afterwards and it’s been 3 years. Logan Paul was elevated by facing Reigns, considering the build to that match was Roman not taking him seriously, then when the bell rang, he proved he could hang. But apart from him, Zayn and Jay Uso, nobody has came out the other side of a feud with Roman with their stock raised, and usually they look worse. Part of the problem is how almost every match with Roman ends with Rikishi's offspring, either the twins or the one he gave up on then abandoned, getting involved and Roman winning as a result. It makes the challenger look like a choke artist.
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tenshi
Patti Mayonnaise
Probably more memorable than a Charlotte title reign
Posts: 34,985
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Post by tenshi on Apr 5, 2023 22:59:14 GMT -5
Well... I've heard for weeks that Cody beating Roman was a bad idea because "Cody hasn't suffered enough in this feud", implying that having Cody win would spoil fans that would then ask for someone else to be champion once they get bored of Cody. "If you're going to beat Roman, it can't be on a whim and Cody hasn't earned the sympathy of the people because he hasn't suffered enough. If you give the title to Cody, people would turn on him because he got everything handed to him and Roman's reign was wasted on nothing" was essentially their argument, claiming that whoever beats Roman must be a top guy for the next 10 years given the amount of work and revenue Roman has gathered during his title run.
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Apr 6, 2023 0:55:27 GMT -5
This wasn't Tommy Dreamer, the underdog who constantly gets thwarted by Raven. This is the legendary Dusty Rhodes' son who left the WWE a midcarder, become champion in other companies, helped start a rival company and return as a main event talent with crossover appeal. You already told the story about his rise through injuries, the Rumble win and going through the Bloodline to get to Roman. This was the time to crown him as a #1 face to rival Roman. Instead, with Vince at the creative helm, his momentum could cool off and he just might become the next mayor of Bitchville.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Apr 6, 2023 4:41:16 GMT -5
Sure, Jan
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Post by doinkmark on Apr 6, 2023 7:24:03 GMT -5
This booking only works IF Cody does eventually win thr world title, and if the fans still care by then. Cody will either win a gimmick match against Roman in a month or 2, or be relegated to the midcard forever, and as others in this thread have said, WWE has a good track record of midcarders who should've been main eventers.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 8,377
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Post by Nosnorb on Apr 6, 2023 8:26:36 GMT -5
This wasn't Tommy Dreamer, the underdog who constantly gets thwarted by Raven. This is the legendary Dusty Rhodes' son who left the WWE a midcarder, become champion in other companies, helped start a rival company and return as a main event talent with crossover appeal. You already told the story about his rise through injuries, the Rumble win and going through the Bloodline to get to Roman. This was the time to crown him as a #1 face to rival Roman. Instead, with Vince at the creative helm, his momentum could cool off and he just might become the next mayor of Bitchville. And didn't Dreamer actually get some payback on Raven like The Chairshot heard around the World? It feels like it has been years since Roman has been left with egg on his face.
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 6, 2023 9:47:22 GMT -5
Cody’s going through Hard Times like Dusty, complete with not winning the title at the big one (Starrcade 85).
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kevin
El Dandy
Posts: 7,516
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Post by kevin on Apr 6, 2023 9:59:40 GMT -5
Cody’s going through Hard Times like Dusty, complete with not winning the title at the big one (Starrcade 85). They should have done a dusty finish at WM.
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Post by Fake Jesus on Apr 6, 2023 10:05:26 GMT -5
The problem really is that Reigns never beats anyone clean, as far as I know. In pure narrative terms the dude isn't in "God Mode" he's over the hill and cheating to compensate. It's like pretending Evolution Triple H is Andre the Giant or something, and no one (as far as I know) ever seems to acknowledge this within the show.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Apr 6, 2023 10:14:51 GMT -5
The problem really is that Reigns never beats anyone clean, as far as I know. In pure narrative terms the dude isn't in "God Mode" he's over the hill and cheating to compensate. It's like pretending Evolution Triple H is Andre the Giant or something, and no one (as far as I know) ever seems to acknowledge this within the show. I’ve said it many times and I’ll say it again: Gunther is the guy that WWE wants us to believe Roman is. He typically just wins big title matches without any backup.
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Post by Fake Jesus on Apr 6, 2023 10:18:13 GMT -5
The problem really is that Reigns never beats anyone clean, as far as I know. In pure narrative terms the dude isn't in "God Mode" he's over the hill and cheating to compensate. It's like pretending Evolution Triple H is Andre the Giant or something, and no one (as far as I know) ever seems to acknowledge this within the show. And again - big badass heel who also cheats to win is a valid archetype, it just means don't portray Megatron like he's f***ing Darth Vader. Different presentations.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 6, 2023 11:02:45 GMT -5
The problem really is that Reigns never beats anyone clean, as far as I know. In pure narrative terms the dude isn't in "God Mode" he's over the hill and cheating to compensate. It's like pretending Evolution Triple H is Andre the Giant or something, and no one (as far as I know) ever seems to acknowledge this within the show. Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying before; if Roman truly was "the ace" in WWE's booking, he'd win a lot more matches cleanly and simply overwhelm his opponents at a certain point, at which point people might've still been disappointed to see Drew, Sami, and Cody all lose to him, but they might've at least had more fans thinking "Well, yeah, Roman's just on that level above, and it'll take a particular kind of match to beat him." - ROH fans were disappointed in 2004 when CM Punk didn't beat Samoa Joe, NJPW fans were disappointed when Tetsuya Naito didn't beat Okada in 2018, but most fans didn't take those losses as signs that the promotion actively wanted them to be miserable, nor did they turn against Joe or Okada or anything since both had been built as such overwhelming challenges to defeat that, again in kayfabe, it allows fans to feel like it's alright and that losing them doesn't hurt the people who lose. That's not how Roman's booked...and in a vacuum, that's fine. In fact, the story of "I was meant to be the top wrestler here, but everything worked against me getting to where I should've been, so now in my insecurity I'm going to become this cruel mob boss who leans on but also manipulates his own family and is willing to cheat to keep my spot" is a pretty great one! But you can only do that so long without giving the fans a sign of what would actually beat this guy; he's a heel, the point is to make fans want to see him lose but also feel like they're watching the story of how he'll eventually fall unfold, and just doing the same ending over and over again is the opposite of that. Again, this really goes back to WWE's issue that they so often don't go past the surface level when booking stuff that happens in the ring; "Roman won, but don't worry, he cheated, so (babyface) is protected" doesn't work if you keep doing it the same exact way, or don't really have anyone on air acknowledge "Hey, Roman says he's the best, but the dude hasn't won cleanly in years!" It's part of what made early 2000s Triple H so unbearable; "I'm the best, I'm the greatest, I am the ultimate challenge...but I only win because I hide sledgehammers around or have my goons interfere for me." It's fine to still acknowledge that a heel who cheats can be great, regardless, but you can't call them the best in that situation, you just make the faces who fail to overcome his cheating look like goobers.
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Post by chronocross on Apr 6, 2023 11:46:23 GMT -5
This wasn't Tommy Dreamer, the underdog who constantly gets thwarted by Raven. This is the legendary Dusty Rhodes' son who left the WWE a midcarder, become champion in other companies, helped start a rival company and return as a main event talent with crossover appeal. You already told the story about his rise through injuries, the Rumble win and going through the Bloodline to get to Roman. This was the time to crown him as a #1 face to rival Roman. Instead, with Vince at the creative helm, his momentum could cool off and he just might become the next mayor of Bitchville. And didn't Dreamer actually get some payback on Raven like The Chairshot heard around the World? It feels like it has been years since Roman has been left with egg on his face. Dreamer did pin Raven in a tag match but Bill Alfonso had it taken off the record as he was not part of the match. Roman did get taken out by KO in the contract signing before the Rumble and Sami did hit the Helluva Kick after their match at Elimination Chamber. I'm guessing they want it to be like his version of "Hard times" as Bubba Ray put it on his podcast, that he will go through some more adversity and then (hopefully) get the WWE title in the end.
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 6, 2023 11:48:51 GMT -5
Who doesn’t acknowledge that Reigns cheats, though? The commentators mention it and they’re usually seen as an extension of what the company is saying. The wrestlers say it all the time- Cody alluded to it in a subtle way on Monday; the whole Sami and KO wanting to team together to take out the Bloodline story was based on Sami saying they can’t win apart from each other because the Bloodline will continue to cheat to win via interference. Solo interfered in his debut by taking out Drew and that was mentioned on air in the aftermath. Etc etc
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Apr 6, 2023 12:04:44 GMT -5
I love when the guys who create fake fighting with guys in Spandex pretend their writing War and Peace to pretend why they can't do basic stuff.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 7, 2023 10:50:18 GMT -5
So reading about how allegedly that was the plan all along makes me plain think further than I do that WWE hates it’s audience and just loves to bait them into thinking something is going to happen and take it away just for the kick of doing it, knowing full well that a) they don’t need them to make money, the Saudis and Networks do that themselves and b) the audience is still going to watch because for most of them, that’s all they’ve ever know in terms of wrestling.
I really, really hate being cynical like that because even everything Heyman says is disregarded by how much he, HHH and Vince have forgotten about booking wrestling than most of us fans know about doing it. Which is the problem, it feels like they’ve somehow forgotten most of it.
And all the Endeaver merger is going to do is going to make them more bulletproof, not less. It’s just a sad state of affairs when there would be nowhere near as much discourse and debate if Cody just f***ing won.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,822
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Apr 7, 2023 12:32:23 GMT -5
Turning fans' expectations on their head doesn't always work, though. WWE gets so caught up in subverting expectations and shocking their fans that they do it at the expense of the story being told. If Andy Dufresne got apprehended at the border and was returned to Shawshank State Prison, moviegoers wouldn't be leaving the cinema saying to themselves, "Man, I can't wait to see how he tries to escape in The Shawshank Redemption 2!" It reminds me of something I read in Death of WCW about Russo's swervetastic tenure: Let's say you ordered a Pizza, but instead, they delivered you a newspaper. It's not what you wanted, but they sure did surprise you, didn't they?
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