Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,226
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 10, 2023 1:33:09 GMT -5
Yep that's more or less the point I was trying to convey. In AEW's infancy, I feel that style was celebrated because it was so non-wwe esque. But I feel that bangers don't correlate to stardom in the industry. IMO, Nobody who has jumped from WWE to AEW and was labeled as "misused" really became the star that WWE "refused" to make them. Don't to discount his malcontent, but Moxley was already a star in WWE. Every other AEW main event player were guys who were never in WWE or already well known names. Things were different then though. AEW still had “match because banger” but it wasn’t as widespread, there was a real mix of stuff going on. At the same time, stuff in WWE (for the most part imo) were, and had been, dire under Vince’s tight grip. The landscape is completely different now for a variety of reasons. Can’t disagree about the former talent not getting elevated to that next level despite both Black AND Miro being literally on the cusp of it respectively, only for both to kind of fall off. Well Miro seemed to do that to himself, Collision might help him though Black had injuries and then needed a break for his own sake. He's since come back and done the best work of his career as Trios Champs with House of Black, so I think I can say his AEW runs done better than his WWE one if I were to compare those two specifically But it's gonna vary from wrestler to wrestler and even match to match for people over preference. I watch both, I think a lot of people inherently watch both, doesn't always mean they're watching them live though |
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jun 10, 2023 7:31:22 GMT -5
 Do it This is about the clearest .gif I've ever seen. Roman out here existing in 8k or something. |
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jun 10, 2023 7:41:37 GMT -5
So are we in a boom period or what? Lol. Forget that it's wrestling for a second. It can be any genre of show. If something was fairly regularly the number 1 show on cable on Mondays, regularly number 1 in all of TV on Fridays, regularly top 5 on cable on Wednesdays, has a lower level spinoff show on a Tuesday which has also been top 5 in recent weeks and there's enough demand that another spinoff is about to debut on Saturdays. That sounds like something that is completely dominating most of the TV week. Then outside of TV ratings there are multiple stadium events per year capable of attracting huge crowds. Sometimes wrestling fans seem scared to admit that it's doing great just because its not doing 5 million viewers like the late 90s. It is doing great though and has been for a few years. I think it also helps wrestling's image right now that every time you turn around it seems like there's a new movie out with Rock or Cena or Batista who a lot of people still know as wrestling guys. The Better Call Saul finale last year that seemed pretty big at the time? Was beaten head to head in the ratings by a random episode of Raw. It beat the Stanley Cup finals this week too. That new Idol show that's been getting buzz lately? It had its big premiere this week and did a worse demo than Raw/Smackdown/Dynamite/NXT do every week (I do understand in that case that HBO is available to less people than USA/FOX/TBS). Still, wrestling regularly beats things that seem more popular in the real world. It seems to be that "needs to be more popular in the real world" thing that people want to be considered a boom period though. Like even if numbers are good and they rank high on TV unless there are a bunch of people out in the wild wearing wrestling shirts all the time, talking about it around the watercooler or current wrestlers are on talk shows or hosting SNL (which has only happened 3 times ever with Hogan/Rock/Cena, even Austin at his peak didn't) then it's not a boom period. This is probably one of the better periods WWE have ever had without explicitly tapping into a cultural zeitgeist of the time like they did in the mid-1980s and late-1990s. Probably for the best too, since in my viewpoint the zeitgeist is one of two things: *Completely fragmented because of the variety of media options, to the point where there is no one set concept to tap into *There is one set concept, and it's centred on volatile social and political matters that wrestling as a whole, let alone WWE, are completely ill-equipped to deal with |
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champchumpchange
Don Corleone
Everyone needs to drive a vehicle, even the very tall.
Posts: 1,682
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Post by champchumpchange on Jun 10, 2023 7:41:47 GMT -5
Do it This is about the clearest .gif I've ever seen. Roman out here existing in 8k or something. Another reason why you should acknowledge him |
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jun 10, 2023 14:35:10 GMT -5
So are we in a boom period or what? Lol. Forget that it's wrestling for a second. It can be any genre of show. If something was fairly regularly the number 1 show on cable on Mondays, regularly number 1 in all of TV on Fridays, regularly top 5 on cable on Wednesdays, has a lower level spinoff show on a Tuesday which has also been top 5 in recent weeks and there's enough demand that another spinoff is about to debut on Saturdays. That sounds like something that is completely dominating most of the TV week. Then outside of TV ratings there are multiple stadium events per year capable of attracting huge crowds. Sometimes wrestling fans seem scared to admit that it's doing great just because its not doing 5 million viewers like the late 90s. It is doing great though and has been for a few years. I think it also helps wrestling's image right now that every time you turn around it seems like there's a new movie out with Rock or Cena or Batista who a lot of people still know as wrestling guys. The Better Call Saul finale last year that seemed pretty big at the time? Was beaten head to head in the ratings by a random episode of Raw. It beat the Stanley Cup finals this week too. That new Idol show that's been getting buzz lately? It had its big premiere this week and did a worse demo than Raw/Smackdown/Dynamite/NXT do every week (I do understand in that case that HBO is available to less people than USA/FOX/TBS). Still, wrestling regularly beats things that seem more popular in the real world. It seems to be that "needs to be more popular in the real world" thing that people want to be considered a boom period though. Like even if numbers are good and they rank high on TV unless there are a bunch of people out in the wild wearing wrestling shirts all the time, talking about it around the watercooler or current wrestlers are on talk shows or hosting SNL (which has only happened 3 times ever with Hogan/Rock/Cena, even Austin at his peak didn't) then it's not a boom period. I don't know that what is presented here is necessarily a slam-dunk in WWE's favour. Yes, Raw had the best cable ratings on August 15, 2022, which was the same night that Better Call Saul ended. I won't dispute that. But in the long tail, grand scheme of thinking about TV, which episode of TV means more *now*-- WWE Raw or Better Call Saul? Which episode is talked about more? Which episode is appreciated more but its respective fandom? Which episode will mean more to get new viewers to check out a show is advertised for a streaming service? Raw beat Better Call Saul in the ratings on August 15, 2022, but I struggle to see what value--commercial, property, narrative, continuity, etc.--that same single episode of Raw has in the here-and-now of this writing. I can't imagine people today deciding to purchase Peacock to start watching WWE with this episode. At the latest, I'm assuming that WWE itself probably only made reference to the August 15 episode of Raw only in hype videos or recaps that aired during Clash at the Castle. (I didn't watch CatC, so I can't say for sure.) Your post makes the point that WWE is more popular, on average, than a lot of other things on TV. Based on the numbers of August 15, 2022, that much was true. But it's also a set of numbers for just one episode. These numbers don't, and shouldn't be read, in a vacuum. In context of WWE's booking last summer, or in context of that episode of Raw to the episode of Raw that airs on June 12, 2023, the August 15, 2022 episode of Raw is more or less forgettable, probably disposable, and ultimately meaningless, and all of these characteristics likely hold true for the dedicated fanbase who actually watch Raw week after week after week. If anything, that episode of Raw blurs into the background when people instead focus on Triple H having control over the booking at that time, because Vince had left the company for a powder, but nothing specifically is ever said about the episode of Raw in question though it did the biggest cable rating numbers that night. In comparison, nowadays, it's nothing but Milhouse for Better Call Saul. A critically acclaimed show, that was a spin-off of another critically acclaimed show, Breaking Bad, which was also a very popular show at the time it ended, a show that has catalogue value for anyone who may purchase the AMC streaming service, or that has license value if AMC decides to let Netflix, that has word-of-mouth recommendation value for anyone who liked Breaking Bad, that makes up not just a final season physical media release but also a boxed set complete collection physical media release... etc., etc. Unlike the August 15, 2022 episode of Raw for WWE fans, the final episode of Better Call Saul for the fans the show, or for fans of the Breaking Bad universe, or for fans of Vince Gilligan TV, or for fans of Peak TV, or whomever, this episode is anythign but forgettable, disposable, and meaningless. And as a single unit of television, as an episode, may actually have more value in the long run in the context of the production of its show than the August 15, 2022 episode of Raw could have for WWE. Even though WWE Raw had bigger numbers than Better Call Saul on August 15, 2022. What we remember about a TV show and how we remember a TV show are as important to the conversation of whether or not wrestling, and WWE in particular, is in a boom period. Or whether people still like Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul in 2023 and will continue to do so after their conclusions, for that matter. |
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Post by Treklubj on Jun 10, 2023 16:27:38 GMT -5
Forget that it's wrestling for a second. It can be any genre of show. If something was fairly regularly the number 1 show on cable on Mondays, regularly number 1 in all of TV on Fridays, regularly top 5 on cable on Wednesdays, has a lower level spinoff show on a Tuesday which has also been top 5 in recent weeks and there's enough demand that another spinoff is about to debut on Saturdays. That sounds like something that is completely dominating most of the TV week. Then outside of TV ratings there are multiple stadium events per year capable of attracting huge crowds. Sometimes wrestling fans seem scared to admit that it's doing great just because its not doing 5 million viewers like the late 90s. It is doing great though and has been for a few years. I think it also helps wrestling's image right now that every time you turn around it seems like there's a new movie out with Rock or Cena or Batista who a lot of people still know as wrestling guys. The Better Call Saul finale last year that seemed pretty big at the time? Was beaten head to head in the ratings by a random episode of Raw. It beat the Stanley Cup finals this week too. That new Idol show that's been getting buzz lately? It had its big premiere this week and did a worse demo than Raw/Smackdown/Dynamite/NXT do every week (I do understand in that case that HBO is available to less people than USA/FOX/TBS). Still, wrestling regularly beats things that seem more popular in the real world. It seems to be that "needs to be more popular in the real world" thing that people want to be considered a boom period though. Like even if numbers are good and they rank high on TV unless there are a bunch of people out in the wild wearing wrestling shirts all the time, talking about it around the watercooler or current wrestlers are on talk shows or hosting SNL (which has only happened 3 times ever with Hogan/Rock/Cena, even Austin at his peak didn't) then it's not a boom period. I don't know that what is presented here is necessarily a slam-dunk in WWE's favour. Yes, Raw had the best cable ratings on August 15, 2022, which was the same night that Better Call Saul ended. I won't dispute that. But in the long tail, grand scheme of thinking about TV, which episode of TV means more *now*-- WWE Raw or Better Call Saul? Which episode is talked about more? Which episode is appreciated more but its respective fandom? Which episode will mean more to get new viewers to check out a show is advertised for a streaming service? Raw beat Better Call Saul in the ratings on August 15, 2022, but I struggle to see what value--commercial, property, narrative, continuity, etc.--that same single episode of Raw has in the here-and-now of this writing. I can't imagine people today deciding to purchase Peacock to start watching WWE with this episode. At the latest, I'm assuming that WWE itself probably only made reference to the August 15 episode of Raw only in hype videos or recaps that aired during Clash at the Castle. (I didn't watch CatC, so I can't say for sure.) Your post makes the point that WWE is more popular, on average, than a lot of other things on TV. Based on the numbers of August 15, 2022, that much was true. But it's also a set of numbers for just one episode. These numbers don't, and shouldn't be read, in a vacuum. In context of WWE's booking last summer, or in context of that episode of Raw to the episode of Raw that airs on June 12, 2023, the August 15, 2022 episode of Raw is more or less forgettable, probably disposable, and ultimately meaningless, and all of these characteristics likely hold true for the dedicated fanbase who actually watch Raw week after week after week. If anything, that episode of Raw blurs into the background when people instead focus on Triple H having control over the booking at that time, because Vince had left the company for a powder, but nothing specifically is ever said about the episode of Raw in question though it did the biggest cable rating numbers that night. In comparison, nowadays, it's nothing but Milhouse for Better Call Saul. A critically acclaimed show, that was a spin-off of another critically acclaimed show, Breaking Bad, which was also a very popular show at the time it ended, a show that has catalogue value for anyone who may purchase the AMC streaming service, or that has license value if AMC decides to let Netflix, that has word-of-mouth recommendation value for anyone who liked Breaking Bad, that makes up not just a final season physical media release but also a boxed set complete collection physical media release... etc., etc. Unlike the August 15, 2022 episode of Raw for WWE fans, the final episode of Better Call Saul for the fans the show, or for fans of the Breaking Bad universe, or for fans of Vince Gilligan TV, or for fans of Peak TV, or whomever, this episode is anythign but forgettable, disposable, and meaningless. And as a single unit of television, as an episode, may actually have more value in the long run in the context of the production of its show than the August 15, 2022 episode of Raw could have for WWE. Even though WWE Raw had bigger numbers than Better Call Saul on August 15, 2022. What we remember about a TV show and how we remember a TV show are as important to the conversation of whether or not wrestling, and WWE in particular, is in a boom period. Or whether people still like Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul in 2023 and will continue to do so after their conclusions, for that matter. The August 8, 2022 episode of "Better Call Saul" fared even worse against Raw, both in total viewership and 18-49 numbers. I think the point is that the final episode of a mainstream, culturally-relevant show like BCS was less watched than a random episode of Raw. I'm confused, though. Are you arguing Better Call Saul is a more valuable property than WWE? |
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Post by King Devitt and the Woke Mob on Jun 10, 2023 17:33:44 GMT -5
Every time Dave mentions them being hot, I think Mugatu.  I'm still salty we never got a Mugatu spin off movie/series. |
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,226
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 10, 2023 17:40:02 GMT -5
Honestly the HHH era is just way easier to watch and has deserved its viewership increase. Some of it's on Roman's storyline being captivating for viewers but caring about other aspects of the card also get people interested, it actually feels like there's a shit given about midcard belts, good match quality, giving wrestlers actual shine who have deserved it. Some aspects of divisions still need work and not everything's perfect (Wish JD and Riddle weren't on my screen) but outside of Roman's reign never ending (Mainly Mania Night 2) and Charlotte existing I haven't really felt an extreme loathing from WWE as a whole that they had been giving people even pre-pandemic era with Vince's baffling booking ideologies. Much as I don't agree with some stuff from HHH and friends, he's just nowhere near that level.
And when WWE's a hotter product, it helps all of wrestling as a whole in some fashion, so I'm glad for it. I actually want to enjoy the product and for the most part, I've enjoyed it more than I have probably in years.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jun 10, 2023 17:46:15 GMT -5
The August 8, 2022 episode of "Better Call Saul" fared even worse against Raw, both in total viewership and 18-49 numbers. I think the point is that the final episode of a mainstream, culturally-relevant show like BCS was less watched than a random episode of Raw. I'm confused, though. Are you arguing Better Call Saul is a more valuable property than WWE? My point is that an episode of Better Call Saul is probably more valuable in the weeks and months (and probably years) after originally airing than an episode of WWE Raw on the night it aired against Better Call Saul and won the overall night's ratings. WWE Raw August 15, 2022 won the sprint, "Saul Gone" will win the marathon. |
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,513
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Post by Fade on Jun 10, 2023 19:10:42 GMT -5
Things were different then though. AEW still had “match because banger” but it wasn’t as widespread, there was a real mix of stuff going on. At the same time, stuff in WWE (for the most part imo) were, and had been, dire under Vince’s tight grip. The landscape is completely different now for a variety of reasons. Can’t disagree about the former talent not getting elevated to that next level despite both Black AND Miro being literally on the cusp of it respectively, only for both to kind of fall off. Well Miro seemed to do that to himself, Collision might help him though Black had injuries and then needed a break for his own sake. He's since come back and done the best work of his career as Trios Champs with House of Black, so I think I can say his AEW runs done better than his WWE one if I were to compare those two specifically But it's gonna vary from wrestler to wrestler and even match to match for people over preference. I watch both, I think a lot of people inherently watch both, doesn't always mean they're watching them live though Notwithstanding all those factors, I still believe AEW dropped the ball on both Miro and Black. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 10, 2023 19:26:34 GMT -5
The August 8, 2022 episode of "Better Call Saul" fared even worse against Raw, both in total viewership and 18-49 numbers. I think the point is that the final episode of a mainstream, culturally-relevant show like BCS was less watched than a random episode of Raw. I'm confused, though. Are you arguing Better Call Saul is a more valuable property than WWE? My point is that an episode of Better Call Saul is probably more valuable in the weeks and months (and probably years) after originally airing than an episode of WWE Raw on the night it aired against Better Call Saul and won the overall night's ratings. WWE Raw August 15, 2022 won the sprint, "Saul Gone" will win the marathon. Sure, on the basis of one episode, yeah. A finite, limited series that only had sixty three episodes and had a decisive ending point was able to produce more cultural impact than one single episode of Raw. But Raw has 1567 episodes. Literally 1500 more, with some modest rounding. These aren't really comparable entertainment properties, and arguably wrestling as it exists is unlike any other serialized television. People will endlessly rewatch Better Call Saul. New generatiosn will discover it in lists ten years from now and watch it for the first time and love it. And yeah, in all likelihood people won't go back to August 15, 2022 Raw the same way. But the ways that wrestling becomes popular and the way a normal TV show becomes popular don't manifest in the same way. The point being made was that Raw got better ratings than Better Call Saul that night simply as an expression of how many people watched the two shows live. I think if you want to try to judge wrestling television by the standard of individual prestige TV episodes then yeah you'll get the result you want, but it's not a standard wrestling is meant to be held to and it does a disservice to wrestling to do so. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jun 11, 2023 4:49:46 GMT -5
My point is that an episode of Better Call Saul is probably more valuable in the weeks and months (and probably years) after originally airing than an episode of WWE Raw on the night it aired against Better Call Saul and won the overall night's ratings. WWE Raw August 15, 2022 won the sprint, "Saul Gone" will win the marathon. Sure, on the basis of one episode, yeah. A finite, limited series that only had sixty three episodes and had a decisive ending point was able to produce more cultural impact than one single episode of Raw. But Raw has 1567 episodes. Literally 1500 more, with some modest rounding. These aren't really comparable entertainment properties, and arguably wrestling as it exists is unlike any other serialized television. People will endlessly rewatch Better Call Saul. New generatiosn will discover it in lists ten years from now and watch it for the first time and love it. And yeah, in all likelihood people won't go back to August 15, 2022 Raw the same way. But the ways that wrestling becomes popular and the way a normal TV show becomes popular don't manifest in the same way. The point being made was that Raw got better ratings than Better Call Saul that night simply as an expression of how many people watched the two shows live. I think if you want to try to judge wrestling television by the standard of individual prestige TV episodes then yeah you'll get the result you want, but it's not a standard wrestling is meant to be held to and it does a disservice to wrestling to do so. Yeah, honestly, the entire discussion feels weird and just there to try and say that Raw (you can include Smackdown and NXT) needs to be compared to scripted, short form drama to be credible and it doesn’t. WWE can be super hot without it needing to reach a standard it’s not designed for especially since I’m not seeing word of Breaking Bad universe house shows or YouTube interview shows on a weekly basis. Even with the Network, you’re not going to watch entire episodes of Raw, Smackdown or NXT in the same way you watch Better Call Saul or Game of Thrones or anything of its ilk. It’s not designed for that because too much is going on that separates itself from the thing you might want to watch (wading through Russo’s Midcard crap to get to anything Austin/McMahon related, as an example). It’s akin to the “_____ should get an Emmy” talk which, again, pro wrestling doesn’t need an award to be seen as credible, it makes money, that’s the job the networks and executives care about for it. At least comparing it to AEW makes sense because they’re both the same thing even if one company’s been around for decades and the other hasn’t even reached half a decade yet and still grabbing its foothold. And even then, it seems super boring to do it because it’s not as easy as people think it is. EDIT: If you want my opinion on it, though, I’d make the case that this is the first time since the Montreal Screwjob that a McMahon hasn’t had a TV presence on the shows and authority figure presence is substantially lower, hence talent are allowed to be stars without Vince, Shane, Steph, Hunter, whoever from being the true star of the show. Nothing on the show is trying to do Austin/McMahon for the 30 millionth time, for example. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 11, 2023 8:02:14 GMT -5
New podcasts incoming
19 weeks pal
21 weeks pal
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Post by stoptheclocks on Jun 12, 2023 3:16:25 GMT -5
The August 8, 2022 episode of "Better Call Saul" fared even worse against Raw, both in total viewership and 18-49 numbers. I think the point is that the final episode of a mainstream, culturally-relevant show like BCS was less watched than a random episode of Raw. I'm confused, though. Are you arguing Better Call Saul is a more valuable property than WWE? My point is that an episode of Better Call Saul is probably more valuable in the weeks and months (and probably years) after originally airing than an episode of WWE Raw on the night it aired against Better Call Saul and won the overall night's ratings. WWE Raw August 15, 2022 won the sprint, "Saul Gone" will win the marathon. The point the original poster was making was just that sometimes wrestling fans can be quite self-flagellating about its popularity and miss that it's one of the biggest entertainment properties on the planet. There are 'mainstream' TV shows which would kill to get the ratings WWE gets, 'mainstream' music artists that could never shift as many tickets as WWE does, 'mainstream' celebrities who have millions fewer followers than top WWE stars. In terms of (regular season) sports, it's ahead of everything outside the NFL. And these things were all true during the Vince days, now with HHH they're just moving further and further ahead of the competition. |
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 17,304
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Post by Renslayer on Jun 12, 2023 13:10:31 GMT -5
Do it ☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️ |
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