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Post by The Legend of Groose on Jul 20, 2023 12:02:09 GMT -5
I had my hot potato fill with the 24/7 title.
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dbrussel
Don Corleone
Former WOW employee
Posts: 1,857
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Post by dbrussel on Jul 20, 2023 12:23:52 GMT -5
They have the women's tag titles for that. It's a miracle every time one of those reigns surpass the 40 day mark
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 17,401
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Post by BRV on Jul 20, 2023 12:28:21 GMT -5
This is overthinking things; hot potato'ing, long reigns, 50/50 booking, whatever other terms we're throwing out there, are not all automatically good or bad. There's only one thing any of these ideas need in order to be effective, no matter how many people within a promotion are doing them: they need a goddamned point.Once this current WWE era of "every champion holds their belt forever" hits its end, whatever that may look like, sure, go ahead and do some hot potato'ing...but don't just do it "because it's different" or "because it's unexpected". WWE booked like that for years and it sucked, as did promotions like TNA. Do it because there's a purpose to what you're trying to accomplish. Maybe the person who beats, let's say, Gunther gets over big, but immediately loses their first title defense to a seemingly out of nowhere up and comer, but then wins the belt back pretty quickly from that same newbie. Ok! Assuming it's executed well, that would have served the purpose of getting that new wrestler established and over, while throwing the audience a surprise after seeing the same person hold the same belt for so long. Maybe have the world title hop around between three different wrestlers who are all in or breaking through to the main event for a little bit, but again, do it as a means of solidifying who they are, what their roles are, and where they sit in the roster pecking order; e.g. did one of the three win cleanly? Did one turn heel and cheat to get to the top? Did one use more violent means to get there? Has one become the clear "ace" of the group, and if so then what roles are the other two now in? Use it as a way to establish what their characters are, what motivates them, and how they're different from one another while pursuing the same goal. When I look at WWE's current booking from the outside in, it doesn't seem very interesting to me; I see long title reigns without a lot of thought behind why they're happening (outside of maybe Gunther's) or benefits for most of the challengers. That said, apparently I don't speak for the majority! Their ratings are way up, and a huge reason is that people now view Roman Reigns the way they view the 90s Chicago Bulls or 2000s-2010s New England Patriots, and that's drawing pretty damn big. In that regard I can't really blame them for what they're doing, for this year it certainly seems to be working for them. But few of us get any richer off a promotion doing well business-wise, so I'm trying to keep this focused on creative critiques. On that front, we need to stop essentializing most booking ideas as intrinsically good or bad, and think more about the context in which they're being used and whether they're fulfilling a creative purpose. When you start thinking about things that way, it can be pretty freeing; you stop worrying so much about "oh no, they're doing THIS again", and instead start thinking "oh, I wonder what that same 'this' will mean for this character's future". You also stop worrying about who's holding what belt or whatever and start thinking more about whether their reign is telling a story; you'd obviously still like your favorites to win the big belts because it's fun to cheer your favorites, but it's easier to accept if you see some kind of purpose at work. In short: you can book any damn way you like and change it up on a dime if you so choose, but just make sure you're doing it with a goal in mind. Seems like current WWE with Triple H in charge would likely do that better than Vince-booked WWE, but I guess we'll see. The long and short of this is "I agree." It really doesn't matter if a champion holds the belt for two weeks, two months, or two years, what matters is whether they elevate the title and in the process they elevate themselves. It's also necessary for there to be an end game. We've known for months now that the end game for Gunther's reign is to become the longest-reigning Intercontinental Champion in history. But what after that? Does he drop the belt at the next episode of Raw? Survivor Series? WrestleMania? And when he does drop it, to whom does he lose, and where does he go after losing? Look at it like The Usos' record-breaking Tag Team Championship run. They elevated the hell out of both the titles and themselves, taking belts that were opening WrestleMania a year prior and putting them in the main event. They also went from jerking the curtain with the Mike's Hard Lemonade version of Shinsuke Nakamura and Rick Boogs to main eventing WrestleMania in a year. And in losing, they made the team of Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn that much bigger in the process. It all worked perfectly and the ending was flawless. Compare that to, say, Asuka's current reign. What has she really done so far? Cheated to end a record-breaking run, and has become a total afterthought in a Charlotte-Bianca rivalry. When she loses, will she still be a main event player? Or does she tumble back down the card, because she's just keeping the belt warm for Charlotte or Bianca?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2023 12:47:09 GMT -5
I think "Transitional champions" are a lost art in WWE style booking, and arguably in American wrestling in general.
Iron Sheik was a transitional champion, as was Superstar Billy Graham, and Ivan Koloff.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 3,268
Member is Online
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Post by tirtefaa on Jul 20, 2023 12:55:04 GMT -5
Iron Sheik was a transitional champion, as was Superstar Billy Graham, and Ivan Koloff. Koloff and Sheik certainly were, but I'd disagree on Graham. I think the company may have had a direction they wanted to go, but weren't focused on immediately getting there. Graham certainly offered more value than your average transitional champion, even though both types of champions are equally valued.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 20, 2023 13:43:57 GMT -5
This is overthinking things; hot potato'ing, long reigns, 50/50 booking, whatever other terms we're throwing out there, are not all automatically good or bad. There's only one thing any of these ideas need in order to be effective, no matter how many people within a promotion are doing them: they need a goddamned point.Once this current WWE era of "every champion holds their belt forever" hits its end, whatever that may look like, sure, go ahead and do some hot potato'ing...but don't just do it "because it's different" or "because it's unexpected". WWE booked like that for years and it sucked, as did promotions like TNA. Do it because there's a purpose to what you're trying to accomplish. Maybe the person who beats, let's say, Gunther gets over big, but immediately loses their first title defense to a seemingly out of nowhere up and comer, but then wins the belt back pretty quickly from that same newbie. Ok! Assuming it's executed well, that would have served the purpose of getting that new wrestler established and over, while throwing the audience a surprise after seeing the same person hold the same belt for so long. Maybe have the world title hop around between three different wrestlers who are all in or breaking through to the main event for a little bit, but again, do it as a means of solidifying who they are, what their roles are, and where they sit in the roster pecking order; e.g. did one of the three win cleanly? Did one turn heel and cheat to get to the top? Did one use more violent means to get there? Has one become the clear "ace" of the group, and if so then what roles are the other two now in? Use it as a way to establish what their characters are, what motivates them, and how they're different from one another while pursuing the same goal. When I look at WWE's current booking from the outside in, it doesn't seem very interesting to me; I see long title reigns without a lot of thought behind why they're happening (outside of maybe Gunther's) or benefits for most of the challengers. That said, apparently I don't speak for the majority! Their ratings are way up, and a huge reason is that people now view Roman Reigns the way they view the 90s Chicago Bulls or 2000s-2010s New England Patriots, and that's drawing pretty damn big. In that regard I can't really blame them for what they're doing, for this year it certainly seems to be working for them. But few of us get any richer off a promotion doing well business-wise, so I'm trying to keep this focused on creative critiques. On that front, we need to stop essentializing most booking ideas as intrinsically good or bad, and think more about the context in which they're being used and whether they're fulfilling a creative purpose. When you start thinking about things that way, it can be pretty freeing; you stop worrying so much about "oh no, they're doing THIS again", and instead start thinking "oh, I wonder what that same 'this' will mean for this character's future". You also stop worrying about who's holding what belt or whatever and start thinking more about whether their reign is telling a story; you'd obviously still like your favorites to win the big belts because it's fun to cheer your favorites, but it's easier to accept if you see some kind of purpose at work. In short: you can book any damn way you like and change it up on a dime if you so choose, but just make sure you're doing it with a goal in mind. Seems like current WWE with Triple H in charge would likely do that better than Vince-booked WWE, but I guess we'll see. The long and short of this is "I agree." It really doesn't matter if a champion holds the belt for two weeks, two months, or two years, what matters is whether they elevate the title and in the process they elevate themselves. It's also necessary for there to be an end game. We've known for months now that the end game for Gunther's reign is to become the longest-reigning Intercontinental Champion in history. But what after that? Does he drop the belt at the next episode of Raw? Survivor Series? WrestleMania? And when he does drop it, to whom does he lose, and where does he go after losing? Look at it like The Usos' record-breaking Tag Team Championship run. They elevated the hell out of both the titles and themselves, taking belts that were opening WrestleMania a year prior and putting them in the main event. They also went from jerking the curtain with the Mike's Hard Lemonade version of Shinsuke Nakamura and Rick Boogs to main eventing WrestleMania in a year. And in losing, they made the team of Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn that much bigger in the process. It all worked perfectly and the ending was flawless. Compare that to, say, Asuka's current reign. What has she really done so far? Cheated to end a record-breaking run, and has become a total afterthought in a Charlotte-Bianca rivalry. When she loses, will she still be a main event player? Or does she tumble back down the card, because she's just keeping the belt warm for Charlotte or Bianca? I've said before that seems to be why some people look at Asuka's many, many on-screen accomplishments in WWE but still feel like she's under or misused: yes, she wins these things, but is it showing us anything about her, or just putting belts on her for the sake of it/because she's reliable? But hey, maybe the booking isn't interested in that; maybe they want to build Asuka up into an obstacle for someone else to overcome, which means her own characterization isn't quite as important as that of the person who eventually beats her. That'd be a perfectly valid creative decision! Yet when she comes off as a "third wheel", I imagine that hurts the chances of getting to that point, since her build to being dethroned isn't seemingly part of the focus. Over in AEW Orange Cassidy's International title reign is very, very over due to a number of factors: people already like him, he's very talented, etc. But one of the key things elevating the whole experience is that every match is contributing to the overall story: Orange is an over-the-top fighting champion who literally gives *everybody* a shot at the belt, and thus far he's overcome all challengers, but the pace of defenses and the different opponents he faces all keep contributing to his body breaking down more and more by the week, to the point that he had to rely on a countout to survive Lance Archer's challenge this past Saturday since he can barely do his Orange Punch finisher anymore due to hand injuries. This story could've been done in a few months, but they've kept it going since last fall and, y'know what? It's still working, and whoever wins that belt is going to get a hell of a shine from it, even if it's a heel who simply takes advantage of Orange's varied injuries to finally put him away. Similarly, it at least appears that part of Gunther's reign was accomplishing something good for WWE as a whole: the guy is such a monster who wrestles such a different style from what most WWE matches look like that people just getting in there and giving him a good fight is enough to get both champion and challenger over to some degree, and after sooooooooo many years of the IC being pointless in the grand scheme of things it's likely a major relief to fans of that belt's history. I hear what you're saying about the "it's now about making history" point, though; at least when Kazuchika Okada was set to beat Hiroshi Tanahashi's record for most successful defenses of the IWGP World title in one title reign, the story they told was "Okada's oldest rival, Tanahashi himself, is coming out to prevent Okada from breaking the record, but he's older now and may not be as up to the task as he was a few years ago." Wasn't a ton of doubt Okada would set the record, but it was cool to see their longstanding rivalry and story tied into it. If Gunther's going to set the record but just basically do a bunch of defenses that all kind of blend together between now and September, that makes things feel directionless, like there's no reason to keep the belt on him beyond "we just want a new record holder."
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jul 20, 2023 13:45:35 GMT -5
There's a balance to be had but I think WWE are going overboard on the super long title reigns. Bianca's recent year-long and AJ's year-long from a few years ago stick out as having zero reason to be as long as they were.
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Chiral
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 76,585
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Post by Chiral on Jul 20, 2023 13:45:49 GMT -5
I like when there's a mix, like some long title reigns (not multi year ones oh my god) but then some stretches where champs can't hold onto the belts long, the latter done right can make for some really exciting stuff.
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J is Justice
Patti Mayonnaise
Will now be grateful.
Hi.
Posts: 31,841
Member is Online
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Post by J is Justice on Jul 20, 2023 13:51:56 GMT -5
It's why the women's tag belts are my favourite titles right now. Preferably, I just want a mix of long reigns and short reigns, though.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 20, 2023 14:51:21 GMT -5
There's a balance to be had but I think WWE are going overboard on the super long title reigns. Bianca's recent year-long and AJ's year-long from a few years ago stick out as having zero reason to be as long as they were. You can probably cut at least a year and a half of filler from Romans reign.
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Eunös ✈
Dalek
Duck Feet Expert
Tolerated, just not practically liked.
Posts: 59,302
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Post by Eunös ✈ on Jul 20, 2023 15:05:17 GMT -5
Bit of Column A, Bit of Column B.
I think a long Title reign from time to time is fine with a few shorter reigns sprinkled in between.
It would get tiresome if the title is changing hands every week.
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 28,717
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Post by 4real on Jul 20, 2023 16:41:00 GMT -5
Depends who it is:
Roman: Long reign Gunther: Long reign Rhea: Long reign KO & Sami: Long reign
Theory: Hot potato
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gl83
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,232
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Post by gl83 on Jul 20, 2023 16:55:39 GMT -5
I wish people wouldn't use the Women's Tag Titles as an example of hot potato booking. Liv and Raquel only won the belts because Rhonda is leaving the company in a few weeks, and, with how Triple H loves his lengthy heel title reigns, I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea and Sonya are still the champs this time next year. People use the Women’s Tag Titles as an example of hot potato booking because the lengths of each title reign since WM has been 42 days(Becky/Lita), 39 days(Raquel/Liv), 33 days(Shayna/Ronda) and 16 days(Raquel/Liv). I mean since being reactivated last year, the longest title reigns have been Damage Ctrl at 114 days and 49 days followed by Becky and Lita at 42 days.
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Post by darbus alan on Jul 20, 2023 17:04:37 GMT -5
AEW's TNT title gets hot potatoed and TBH it's not compelling either.
There's a happy medium between Attitude Era-style hot potatoes and these forever reigns.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,401
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jul 20, 2023 18:53:37 GMT -5
Fans don’t want long or short reigns. They just want to see a wrestler with an accessory. That’s why the internet is littered with Piper, Perfect, MDM, Jake, Owen Hart, Cody should have been world champion fantasy booking. All they want is to see the guy or girl with it. We have a giant thread here called “Pictures of wrestlers with titles they never held” and I don’t even think it’s the first or second time we’ve had that thread.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Jul 20, 2023 20:19:57 GMT -5
As I've said before, I'm pretty sick of the 80's NWA-style never-ending title reigns that WWE has been doing lately. I know I always get a million people pointing out how wrong I am whenever I say this but the title scene is so stagnant right now. I wouldn't be against hot shotting a few titles for a little bit just to build up some excitement. The key here is moderation. Look at ROH for instance. Joe was champion for two whole years, then 2005 rolls around and you have no less than 3 world title changes, then after Danielson’s title run in 06 you got a short one for Homicide, and a decent size run for Morishima before Mcguinness wins it. Having a title hot potatoed can serve to show how competitive things are at the top when you have a really stacked main event scene. Having a long dominant title reign can be used to emphasize somebody’s status as the top guy during periods where you need to take the time to build the next crop of stars.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 20, 2023 20:34:58 GMT -5
As I've said before, I'm pretty sick of the 80's NWA-style never-ending title reigns that WWE has been doing lately. I know I always get a million people pointing out how wrong I am whenever I say this but the title scene is so stagnant right now. I wouldn't be against hot shotting a few titles for a little bit just to build up some excitement. The key here is moderation. Look at ROH for instance. Joe was champion for two whole years, then 2005 rolls around and you have no less than 3 world title changes, then after Danielson’s title run in 06 you got a short one for Homicide, and a decent size run for Morishima before Mcguinness wins it. Having a title hot potatoed can serve to show how competitive things are at the top when you have a really stacked main event scene. Having a long dominant title reign can be used to emphasize somebody’s status as the top guy during periods where you need to take the time to build the next crop of stars. Some wrestlers also don't lend themselves to really long reigns. Stone Cold for instance was a guy that was all about the chase... his stories when he was the champion were never nearly as good as the road to the show.
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 20, 2023 20:39:46 GMT -5
The key here is moderation. Look at ROH for instance. Joe was champion for two whole years, then 2005 rolls around and you have no less than 3 world title changes, then after Danielson’s title run in 06 you got a short one for Homicide, and a decent size run for Morishima before Mcguinness wins it. Having a title hot potatoed can serve to show how competitive things are at the top when you have a really stacked main event scene. Having a long dominant title reign can be used to emphasize somebody’s status as the top guy during periods where you need to take the time to build the next crop of stars. Some wrestlers also don't lend themselves to really long reigns. Stone Cold for instance was a guy that was all about the chase... his stories when he was the champion were never nearly as good as the road to the show. I know this was the conventional thinking at the time, but in hindsight I wonder how true this really was. Was Austin truly more compelling chasing the title then he was as champion? Or was that simply what Vince Russo convinced everybody simply because he liked booking a lot of title changes?
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 23,593
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Post by asuka007 on Jul 20, 2023 21:09:40 GMT -5
I think there’s a healthy balance that can be struck between “the belts change hands every few weeks” and “almost every title reign needs to go on for at least 8 months” like WWE is doing now.
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Post by Banjo Is Broken on Jul 21, 2023 1:51:15 GMT -5
Mmmmm hot potatoes. Guess I am the only one thinking of actual potatoes right now.
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