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Post by subject2 on Jan 6, 2007 11:10:01 GMT -5
I was with a friedn the other day who stopped watching wrestling a while back...we were watching old ECW/WCW clips and everytime a grappler came on such as DDP..Raven..Scott steiner..Kanyon...i cdnt help be a little upset...in their environments they were so cool and soon as they headed to WWE pastures it all fell apart for them.
My friend then asked why didnt these guys make it big in the E..i told him its basically becasue vince doesn't push guys he didnt create..coz it wasnt his idea...
He replied..thats so stupid..why wouldnt a guy who OWNS this array of talent not wanna push them coz its not his idea...it would be like a sports team buying a player from a rival team and leaving him on the bench to prove they dont need their rivals players..and i couldnt actually answer this because he made a really good point
.case in point.. im a big fan of football..or soccer..now there has been many occasion where a top star has joined the rival team..sol campbell left tottenham for arsenal..who hate each other.nowhe is a great talent..so the arsenal manager plays him..he wouldnt leave him on the bench 2 say..ha..we dont need your players,.,.ours are better..because if uve got the talent 2 make your team/product better you use it.it doesnt make sense not 2..
Whats your opinion on this??
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Jan 6, 2007 11:16:40 GMT -5
um, dude, this is something wrestling fans have known and discussed for years. vince always gets guys (who were big stars elsewhere) and either doesn't push them, or gives them dumb gimmicks to try to make them his (which also never works.). good looking out though.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jan 6, 2007 11:19:50 GMT -5
That buying a rival teams best players just to bench them was actually one of the best analogies I've heard on this subject.
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Post by subject2 on Jan 6, 2007 11:20:06 GMT -5
yeah i do know,,,im jsut saying that i jsut cant see from any angle why anyone would do that..not pushing some1 coz u prefer bigger guys is one thing,.,.but because you didnt specifically make the gimmick..when u act own them and have them working for you..its just dumb.
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Post by THRJamesAngelo on Jan 6, 2007 11:24:01 GMT -5
That buying a rival teams best players just to bench them was actually one of the best analogies I've heard on this subject.
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Post by The Wrestling Rambler on Jan 6, 2007 11:24:33 GMT -5
so the arsenal manager plays him..he wouldnt leave him on the bench 2 say..ha..we dont need your players,.,.ours are better.. Whats your opinion on this?? Im just trying to imagine Arsene Wenger, in his French accemt, saying "HA" in the face of big Sol. But yeah, that generally happens. Booker T, got a decent push when he arrived from WCW. Then Vince creates a new gimmick for Booker. and now that he's King Booker...BANG....World Champion. (Not that Im complaining about this specific example, as I've big a big fan of Booker's for years now)
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Jan 6, 2007 11:25:05 GMT -5
yeah i do know,,,im jsut saying that i jsut cant see from any angle why anyone would do that..not pushing some1 coz u prefer bigger guys is one thing,.,.but because you didnt specifically make the gimmick..when u act own them and have them working for you..its just dumb. yes sir, it is. but, when you own everything, what's the harm?
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Post by subject2 on Jan 6, 2007 11:29:34 GMT -5
better tv product
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Jan 6, 2007 11:30:58 GMT -5
but see, vince just goes "ha ho haha, why be better? no one can beat vincent k. mcmahon!!! haho hahahah!" i think what i'm getting at is, vince is an idiot.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on Jan 6, 2007 11:43:06 GMT -5
Kanyon?
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Post by royboy8 on Jan 6, 2007 12:04:22 GMT -5
If I remember right, Kanyon was given a push as Kanyon, as a matter of fact a very good push once he came over as part of the alliance. He was then injured many times and finally released. When DDP came over he was far past his prime, but was given a Wrestlemania victory over Christian. Scott Steiner was awful in ring wise during his run but was given early a victory or two over then world champ HHH.
I think its a matter of how you look at it. Some of the guys that have came over in the past have not been worthy of a big push like the guys I mentioned above, or in Kanyon's case, pushed really big out of the gate then fizzled out due to injuries.
The people that have came over that deserved their push got them, such as Booker, who even before last year's title run was given a Mania main event spot. Same goes for Y2J. Goldberg was given the WHT on a part time schedule and never lost a singles match with the same gimmick as he always had. Chris Benoit fits this mold perfectly. I even remember Chuck being given chance after chance to succeed. So its not likme Vince just says, " I didnt create you, so you have no chance"
But guys like Stasiak, O'Haire, Jindrack etc just sucked too much to be featured in the E. Yes they were featured in WCW, but remember WCW had some of the lowest ppv buyrates ever when featuring these guys, then went out of buisness.
Vince isnt always the bad guy man. Sometimes you actually have to hold the WRESTLER accountable for not making it big in the E.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 6, 2007 12:05:46 GMT -5
It has to be an ego thing, that basically the stars they created are gonna be pushed over the guys who weren't because the ones created in WWE were better. I think it shows that Vince can be a real mark sometimes for his own company.
The Dudley Boys were the only guys from another company to make it to the top in WWE. Rob Van Dam was another, he did break that glass ceiling, but we all know what happened after that.
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Post by royboy8 on Jan 6, 2007 12:12:35 GMT -5
^ Thats not true at all.... Just look at the guys on my list and youll see why
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jan 6, 2007 12:18:02 GMT -5
He may not given them all titles but he did so push them. I mean look at the list.
Goldberg: World title and beat a list of of big players.
Scott Steiner: Right into a World title feud with HHH. Got demoted when he wasn't proforming well.
Booker T.: Before King booker, He was pushed several times. He been multi time US Champion, a Tag Champion, and I-C Champion. He headlined Wrestlemania with HHH. Many people thought he would won but still he was at less push to that level.
Chris Benoit: Held just about every title you can in the WWE. Tell me how much different his Benoit from WCW and now character wise? There not much.
Rey Mysterio: Ok what is the difference from WCW Rey and WWE Rey outside the look? They put the mask back on him. Now gimmick wise notihng different. But this guy was push from the start. I garentee WCW would never thought to give him a World title or anything beyond the Crusierweight title.
DDP: Well he was buried. But at the end of his run, the were starting to push him. He as a european title. He was becoming more of his old WCW self character wise like the crowd runs and ext. Then he got hurt and retired for a couple years.
Rob Van Dam: Outside his promos nothing really different character wise. But had a good run in the E. Mostly because of out much fans love the guy. Sure ever since the drug accident he been buried but before that he was on his way. Everyone saw him get what he deserved in the World title. He messed it up.
Sabu: It started good for him. Then his attitude got in the way. Vince liked Sabu at the started. But same as RVD the drugs accident hit. Then Sabu Attitude came alone.
There a lot more I good add to this but there are some examples.
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Post by wrath on Jan 6, 2007 12:22:38 GMT -5
It still angers me that they never pushed Raven. He got himself into the best shape of his career and constantly came up with potential storyline ideas for himself. Still nothing.
I also don't think Justin Credible should have been jobbed to hell during his first stint but he ended up so miserable that he stopped caring and dabbling into drugs with Jeff Hardy. If he didn't start no-showing events I really think he might have got a push to some degree during his WWECW stint.
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Post by FCVDave on Jan 6, 2007 13:51:01 GMT -5
Eddie too.
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Post by thebudman2006 on Jan 6, 2007 14:12:43 GMT -5
Dean Malenkos first run with saturn wasnt to bad, then all of a sudden they were both phazed out.
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Post by The Freakin' Deacon on Jan 6, 2007 14:47:54 GMT -5
To me, Raven was the biggest dissappointment. Such a creative mind was left with the generic hardcore wrestler gimmick.
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Post by Hulk With A Mustache on Jan 6, 2007 14:57:37 GMT -5
This isn't entirely true. Let's look at some guys who didn't become stars in the WWF/E and got good pushes: Ric Flair, Booker T, Rob Van Dam, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Mick Foley, The Dudley Boys, Rey Mysterio, The Big Show, Chris Jericho. They all had some really good runs in the WWF/E. Also, while Goldberg and Scott Steiner didn't have spectacular WWE careers, both were main eventers. Scott Steiner was given two back-to-back World Heavyweight Title shots, though he was bad in ring, mainly due to a foot condition. And, Goldberg was World Heavyweight Champion for a while. Hell, Hulk Hogan became a star in the AWA before he joined the WWF. Though, I can see why Vince would like to push stars he created over those he didn't; but you can't ignore the fact that there have been guys who became famous in other promotion and did well in the WWF/E.
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Crook
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 571
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Post by Crook on Jan 6, 2007 15:38:04 GMT -5
I dont understand that either, Raven has been a main eventer or upper midcard guy everywhere he's been.....except wwe.
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