When exactly did Vince lose it?

[Deleted]

I just read the Observer report that says that why Vince feels WWECW is failing is lack of humor in the show. I cannot comprehend how a man that took pro wrestling into the mainstream and turned it into a multibillion dollar business can be so dense.

We all know that in the early to late 80s, Vince McMahon was a genius when it came to pro-wrestling. Everything he touched turned to gold. Then he started to slip. He took the idea of branching wrestling out too far - films, the WBF, the XFL, etc. Those can all be written off as failed experiments... but it almost seems now as if McMahon lives in Bizarro World, where he actually makes an effort to do the opposite of what's best for his own company.

Did the Attitude era and the Austin boom just convince him that sleaze sells? How can the man behind Hulkamania, the big 4 PPVs, Piper's Pit, and so forth be the same man behind all the Diva crap, the axed Steph incest angle, and Katie Vick? Good lord, Vince, no wonder no one wants to advertise on your programming.

Gah, I have to stop, or my head will explode from Vince-logic.

So, what's your take on when, why, or how Vince lost his mind?

[Cousin Judge]

Yeah Vince lost it years ago. Sure he has produced the number one wrestling show on TV on and off for 25 years and you know you won't miss a single minute of his product for years to come, but sure he's gone cookoobannanas.

[nostradumbass]

I'd say just about the time he signed his name on that paper from AOL/Time Warner.

[Cousin Judge]

admiralcrunchy said:

Truth be told, he never had it

Even stupid people win the lottery sometimes

If Vince is stupid it doesn't say much for the "genius" of Paul Heyman does it?

[peopleschamp]

When he bought WCW was when he lost it. After that he didnt really need to try anymore.

[STMP]

Is everybody forgetting the early 90's? Or even the Attitude-era?

Just look around on Wrestlecrap and you'll see most of the crap comes either from mid 90's or the Attitude-era.

Vince is a man who throws shit at the wall and sees what sticks. It's because he wants to branch out from the typical pro-wrestling, which he can book very well, to other tv-shows. In Vince's mind he can make pro-wrestling just as popular as other tv-shows if he just takes ideas from those shows and uses it in the WWE. Take the Divasearch for example (reality and T&A).

That is the problem. He copies popular tv-shows and mixes it with pro-wrestling and is then confused why people don't like it. He has always done that, but during the Rock and Wrestling era it was acceptable since everything was over the top in the 80's and pro-wrestling just seemed to fit in perfect in mainstream popculture.

In the late 90's the same happened when tv became a lot more 'shocking' and Vince was able to play into that with a lot of nudity and bad language. But that doesn't mean that he never screwed up during those days. He just had a couple of great ideas that clicked very well with the crowd. Right now he doesn't have that and we are getting a mediocre product.

But that doesn't mean he is insane or a bad booker, it's just that he tries to be a part of the mainstream culture because that is where the money is. But people watch pro-wrestling or sports entertainment for the wrestling. Trying to be the next Jerry Seinfeld or get the fanbase of Friends is just completely stupid.

[stevolution]

My theory is that Vince is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with. As much as people want to discredit Russo he and Vince were a formidable team back in the late 90's. Now he's surrounded by his daughter and hollywood rejects and it ain't pretty.

[willywonka666]

Vince was the right man at the right time during the mid 80's boom-hell most everything was entertaining and successful in the 80's-people wanted to have fun-we're living in a crap time right now, and it's hard for anyone to stay afloat and do anything impressively right now. He's doing the best with what he's got-but this isn't the 1980's anymore-sadly

As far as his failed projects-he probably wanted them to work but knew some would fail-with a business as big as his, he needs to have other outlets-some that will fail-that's just a part of busines-you actually need some clunkers every now and then

[Mr Captain Falcon]

Vince lost it when he gained it. His acquisition of WCW was what really did him in. The XFL was not what destroyed Vince. He just doesn't know what to do with Football. His mind was made for "Sports Entertainment." Not wrestling, but sports entertainment. Dating back to the first Wrestlemania, its always been about entertaining the crowd, not having the best wrestler in the top spot (see Hogan and Cena and Batista and Sid). Its about HOW they got there, WHAT they did when they got there, HOW the crowd reacted. Vince just doesn't know how to entertain us anymore.

[darthpipes]

I think the beginning of the end for Vince was the XFL and when WCW went out of business.

[Lenny: Smooth like Keith Stone]

I don't necessarily think that Vince has lost it or anything, I just think he is (and always has been) very stubborn. During the boom periods, folks were receptive to his visions and he had a great deal of success. During the low points, it was because Vince persisted with his visions and the masses just didn't want it.

[Brick Killed a Guy]

admiralcrunchy said:

Truth be told, he never had it

Even stupid people win the lottery sometimes

That's a whole lot of lottery tickets, though.

There was a time when Vince had it, and it was probably closer to when his father passed away.

Personally, I think he lost it when he did the Katie Vick angle. At least based on RD's book, it really seemed like that was the breaking point.

[rrm15]

admiralcrunchy said:

Truth be told, he never had it

Even stupid people win the lottery sometimes

[darthpipes]

lenny said:

I don't necessarily think that Vince has lost it or anything, I just think he is (and always has been) very stubborn. During the boom periods, folks were receptive to his visions and he had a great deal of success. During the low points, it was because Vince persisted with his visions and the masses just didn't want it.

Like with his "vision" of ECW. Total disaster. Or trying to force Lashley on the fans as ECW Champion.

The "even stupid people win the lottery" argument about McMahon is very poor. He was the engineer of the wrestling boom of the eighties and got wrestling back on prime-time television and made guys like Hulk Hogan household names. It might have been Eric Bischoff that started the second wrestling boom but McMahon surpassed him and turned the WWE into a publicly-traded billion-dollar business. An idiot wouldn't have been able to do it. A jack***, yes.

The McMahon DVD gives a good illustration of what Vince's problems are. He's a total and absolute control freak. Everything has to be his way, right down to what the announcers are saying. That's what he does during Raw broadcasts. He never takes any days off and has to have his hands in everything. I can appreciate someone who's successful enjoying what they do. I can't stand it when rich people or jocks ***** about their lives. But McMahon really needs to loosen the reigns and step back for a while. It would be in his best interests an the company's best interests.

[JMA]

stevolution said:

My theory is that Vince is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with. As much as people want to discredit Russo he and Vince were a formidable team back in the late 90's. Now he's surrounded by his daughter and hollywood rejects and it ain't pretty.

Bingo. People tend to forget that Vince had great wrestlers and talented writers during the boom periods. Most of the WWF's success was the result of group effort, not of one man.

[Nekron has risen aka Gamera...]

He lost it around 2000 man.... about the time of the hand being born...

[KLRA]

jma said:

stevolution said:

My theory is that Vince is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with. As much as people want to discredit Russo he and Vince were a formidable team back in the late 90's. Now he's surrounded by his daughter and hollywood rejects and it ain't pretty.

Bingo. People tend to forget that Vince had great wrestlers and talented writers during the boom periods. Most of the WWF's success was the result of group effort, not of one man.

Also, those were times when he didn't have a bunch of "yes" men surrounding him that were fearful for their jobs because there was always somewhere else to go. Now it's if you don't agree with McMahon, and he fires you, where else do you have to go?

Listen to RD's interview with Russo where he talks about fighting tooth and nail with Vince on some ideas. You NEVER hear about that now.

[darthpipes]

Yeah, it's either Vince's way or the highway.

In fairness, Russo was a guy who was only good when Vince was editing his stuff. Russo left to his own devices is a disaster, ie WCW 1999-2000.

Jim Cornette was part of the team back during the Attitude Era, right? I know JR was head of talent development.

[Bub (BLM)]

I think he truly "lost it" after WCW and ECW went out of business and he bought up all the intellectual property of said companies. At that point, he had no competition and his ego had inflated to ridiculous proportions.

[Stotty]

who's really the idiot? Vince, or those that watch his shows week in and week out?