In Honour of the Tenth Anniversary of the Screwjob

[The Thread Barbi]

brainofj said:

coksf said:

I certainly see where you're coming from, but lets also factor in other things, that are non-work related -

- Bret's family members was still employed by WWF, even if he was leaving. Trashing the company title would jeopardise and harm their careers.
- Bret had many good friends, like Undertaker, Vader, Austin. He wouldn't show up on Nitro and take away their livelihood by causing his former employee to crash and burn
- As I said before, Bret viewed McMahon only second to his father, in terms of respect. Why would he want to do that? Besides, it wasn't like Bret wanted to leave, but the financial situation and circumstances, and pressure by Vince forced him to leave.

But what would've stopped Eric Bischoff from coming on Nitro the next night and saying "WE SIGNED THE WWF CHAMPION AWAY FROM THE WWF!!!"? After almost two years of some of the most underhanded business practices on Earth, how could anyone assume Bischoff would be a stand-up guy when he had the WWF's throat virtually beneath his bootheel? He does that, and there goes the WWF; it looks like the Titanic now. Even the reigning WWF Champion is jumping ship; it must be dying.


Jed Shaffer
~Gotta agree with Val here ... how is this a debate?

I can certainly see that happening. I can say Vince really was protecting his interests, in that account. I don't like how he went about it though. But he was ultimately responsible for this situation - he told his World Champion to jump ship, because he wasn't able to pay him his contracted amount. He could have easily have Bret drop the title months before urging him to sign with WCW.

[The Thread Barbi]

ptbartman said:

coksf said:

I certainly see where you're coming from, but lets also factor in other things, that are non-work related -

- Bret's family members was still employed by WWF, even if he was leaving. Trashing the company title would jeopardise and harm their careers.
- Bret had many good friends, like Undertaker, Vader, Austin. He wouldn't show up on Nitro and take away their livelihood by causing his former employee to crash and burn
- As I said before, Bret viewed McMahon only second to his father, in terms of respect. Why would he want to do that? Besides, it wasn't like Bret wanted to leave, but the financial situation and circumstances, and pressure by Vince forced him to leave.

Yeah but Vince had all ready been burned by Hogan Savage etc I'm not saying he did the right thing, just saying I understand his mindset when he did it.

Hogan and Savage didn't have their siblings working there at the same time. See how Hogan got his nephew a job with WCW?

[blackielawless]

Everyone always brings up the deal about Bret showing up on Nitro with the belt. Why didn't Vince just say to Bret, "Please don't take this personally, but after the match at SS, I would like to hold on to the belt, then tomorrow on RAW I will have it displayed in the center of the ring, and you can come in, relinquish your title, and say your good byes"?

I am almost positive Bret would not have had a problem with that had Vince gone through with his word which he shook on.

[Brain Of F'n J]

coksf said:

I can certainly see that happening. I can say Vince really was protecting his interests, in that account. I don't like how he went about it though. But he was ultimately responsible for this situation - he told his World Champion to jump ship, because he wasn't able to pay him his contracted amount. He could have easily have Bret drop the title months before urging him to sign with WCW.

From what I understand, the decision to release Bret happened in late October/early November, between Badd Blood and Survivor Series. So, there wasn't really time to have Bret drop the title before SurSer; Vince had sort of painted himself into a corner, which is his fault.

All in all, the whole think sucked. From every angle.

Jed Shaffer
~Karisma ... I was only referencing the OP's "let's debate!". I don't think anyone's gonna be swayed here.

[Main Event Mark]

Even as far as the possibility of Bret trashing the WWF title on Nitro...they could have done it with a replica belt, and I'd guess that most of the fans wouldn't have known the difference.

[britishbulldog]

While I understand where Vince was coming from. I have to say that thinking Bret would show up with the belt is somewhat laughable. If I remember correctly he didn't even show up on WCW for like 2 months. I always thought that was the biggest mistake of the whole thing. You have Bret getting screwed and you don't have hm show up immediatley. If they had done this they could have still said they had the true WWF champion and explain the screwjob. Hell vince was talking about it that night futher proving the point

[Hulk With A Mustache]

I don't blame anybody. I can understand why Bret was pissed. He was loyal to the WWF for years and gave his word to not take the title to WCW. Yet, he got screwed. If that had happened to me, I would be pissed.

I can understand why Vince did it. He's a business and thought he was protecting his business. I mean, Eric Bischoff was basically doing everything in his power to crush the WWF. Having Bret on WCW TV with the WWF Title would have destroyed the WWF. Vince knew it, and the only reassurance he had was Bret's word. I'm sure Vince trusted Bret, but he didn't trust Bischoff, who would have done everything to get Bret to come over with the WWF Title if he had it after Survivor Series. So, he figured that Bret couldn't leave Montreal with the title.

And, I can understand why Shawn agreed to it. He was a company man who did what he was told. And, he probably figured that if he didn't agree to it, then he would fired and replaced with someone who would. Basically, Shawn was just doing what his boss wanted.

All in all, I see the whole incident as a bunch of boys arguing over a toy. The one who ended up with the toy was the one who kicked the other boy in the crotch.

[Legion]

I've always wondered, why did Bret need a 20yr deal?

Could he not have taken a 2yr deal from Vince? Was he that desperate for money? If he was that loyal, would money really make a huge difference? And if it did, then how indeed could Vince be sure Eric wouldnt offer up a stupid one off fee for the WWF belt to get trashed?

That's were the pro-Bret stuff has always fallen for me. If Bret was so loyal and everything, why didnt he just stay for a shorter contract?

[Loki]

Some interesting "pro-Vince" points there...

I still think they'd have solved the thing in so many possible ways, even while having little time to rebook a pre-advertised card.

ie. Undertaked did have beef with HBK after the chairshot at SummerSlam and the HIAC match at Bad Blood... Why not have Taker ambush HBK backstage at Montreal, thus taking his place in the title match?

As said, Vince could have forced Bret to surrender the belt as soon as he walked through the courtains after the match. That happened all the time with the Million $ Belt.

And WCW could have capitalized on Bret's acquisition regardless of him having the actual belt, a replica, or no belt at all. Good for WWE, they dropped the ball big time with the Hitman.
But had they been smart, Bret's presence could have been a huge blow to WWE, and without the aid of trashcans.

Anyway, I don't really blame Vince for being paranoid and distrustful: he was having a rough time against WCW, and he most likely misjudged Bret, his professionalism and the possible remedies to the situation.

Shawn on the other hand was at his worst: sure he did what he was told to, but he enjoyed it too much, lied about his role in that, and kept on lying for years.

[britishbulldog]

Bret did say he would have renegotiated his contract, however Vince would have none of it

[blackielawless]

Yes, in "Wrestling with Shadows", Bret asked Vince "What will it take for me to stay with the WWE?"

It is no mystery that Bret wanted to finish his career in WWE.

[normcoleman]

I think Vince overreacted to the whole situation. Bret truly did want to finish his career in the WWF, but when Eric Bischoff is having his way in the ratings you'll do almost anything

[TheMediocreWarrior]

Pro-Bret.

Both sides were in the wrong, but what Vince did was worse.

Bret Hart should have agreed to drop the title to HBK. Sure HBK was a selfish jerk who wouldn't help anyone but himself, but still Bret should have shown that he was the bigger man by doing business the right way.

Vince though came off as the biggest jerk in the whole mess by stabbing someone in the back. People think a whole lot less of McMahon after that one because it becomes known that company loyalty means nothing to him, he'll go behind your back when he feels it best suits him.

[VeggieOverlord]

It was a work. I'm sticking to this. But, Vince and Bret did have legit heat, especially after Owen dying. But, I stand firm in saying Montreal was a work. It worked out so perfectly. It had to have been booked.

[TheMediocreWarrior]

veggieoverlord said:

It was a work. I'm sticking to this. But, Vince and Bret did have legit heat, especially after Owen dying. But, I stand firm in saying Montreal was a work. It worked out so perfectly. It had to have been booked.

So the A and E special was a worked biography?

[wrestlecrapcrap]

Pro Vince.

Not because I don't think the moral issues of 'stabbing someone in the back' were correct, but because he had to do what he did to be sure his company was protected.

I'm not so sure he was worried about the championship - as in the phyiscal object that was the belt - he was protecting the interests of his company because even if Brett didn't have the belt when he showed up, Bischoff could have still spun it as saying 'We have signed the WWF champion, in the prime of his career' and then Brett could have gone on to bury the entire company. Bischoff could have paid Brett an extotianate amount not not relinquish the title on Raw the next day, to not show up, to pull a sicky, anything. Vince had to make sure that Brett wasn't the champion at the time of his leaving, because it makes WCW seem like the superior organisation.

I'm sure Vince knew that Brett 'probably' wouldn't have done what Bischoff asked, as he was loyal to the WWF etc. But in business, when you are losing the ratings to your competition especially, you can't be dealing in probablies and chances, you have to deal in certaintees. It had to be done as far as I'm concerned.

[tap]

Well, to complicate the argument, Vince had no problem on WWF TV with the World Heavyweight Title back in 1991-92. And on the Four Horsemen DVD, Ric talks about the possibility of bringing the belt with him. The situation around Flair leaving WCW and going to the WWF isn't as analogous as Bret leaving the WWF and going to WCW, but argumentatively, there is a somewhat of a double standard, in my opinion.

[CosmicPool]

pushvalvenis said:

My final opinion on this? The only winner in the whole deal was the WWF Title. Because it didn't get trashed, and it at least was given to a credible champ.

corrected

[kittylimits]

The Vince is an ass impact still woulda worked if he stripped him of the title on the Raw the next night.

But the Shawn Michaels thing was too much, with the little person....

[big nasty]

tap said:

Well, to complicate the argument, Vince had no problem on WWF TV with the World Heavyweight Title back in 1991-92. And on the Four Horsemen DVD, Ric talks about the possibility of bringing the belt with him. The situation around Flair leaving WCW and going to the WWF isn't as analogous as Bret leaving the WWF and going to WCW, but argumentatively, there is a somewhat of a double standard, in my opinion.

glad you brought this up. i went to a WcW event in new jersey expecting to see flair wrestle as part of a double ring cage match. to start the event, the announcer comes to the ring and proclaims flair has been fired from WcW, to a chorus of boos from a confused and angry crowd. soon after flair was starting to appear on WWF shows, with the belt. i think vince thought he may get the tables turned on him, and panicked. i can say personally that i loved flair then, and basically stopped watching wcw after that.

my initial reaction is to say bret was given creative control, and had the right to refuse to drop the belt. but if the owner of the company you perform for wants you to drop the belt, you should just do it. dont be a child and say you dont want to lose in front of a hometown crowd, or that you dont like the guy you're jobbing to. put the BELT and your OPPONENT over, not yourself. he was leaving the company for whatever reason anyway, just drop the belt when you're asked to. surrendering it makes the wwf look weak, as if no one there can beat you for it in ring.

bret hart is beloved for his in ring abilities, but i cant help but think if it were someone less beloved here, say hogan was in brets shoes, we would just be killing hogan about it.

on a side note, i wonder how many current guys have creative control, and if a lack thereof has anything to do with the somewhat lackluster wwe product nowadays.