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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 28, 2023 10:04:44 GMT -5
How to save ratings: -Killswitch kills Christian -Goes back to Luchasaurus -Beats up TK -Takes over AEW -Rebrands the show to DinoMight -Forces everyone into dinosaur gimmicks -Starks dressed as a velociraptor beats Maxwel Jurassic Friedman for the title Requisite image added
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 28, 2023 7:24:15 GMT -5
So no, I didn't watch, either, so I'm not about to comment directly on Raw's quality or lack thereof last night, but there's definitely something a lot of us are bringing up that always confuses me: a lot of the most pointed comments about AEW over the last year have been "pointless, heatless matches!" or "the weekly TV is useless and the stories take too long, but the PPVs deliver because they can put on bangers without worrying about the story" or whatever; ignore that AEW tends to do a lot of storytelling via their matches or that a show like Full Gear was probably more plot/storyline driven than most PPVs out there, but that's what a lot of loud voices keep proclaiming. Then when I hear about WWE, there's a contingent of people saying "Well, the weekly show isn't great, you get a lot of heatless/repetitive matches, and the storylines drag on forever, but the PLEs deliver bangers"...which is almost the exact same thing, but now turned into a positive? Like, it's possible that WWE is just executing some form of this better (and Peacock being free for a lot of people probably helps vis a vis $50 per AEW PPV), but when I read this stuff I get confused at what's being argued much of the time. For years I've heard that promotions I watch (going back to ROH in the 2000s) "lack storytelling/psychology" when compared to WWE, yet a big reason I've watched the promotions I do is precisely because they tend to do more in-ring storytelling and psychology than WWE, and the stories' builds play into how their matches are performed...which to me is the biggest ingredient in making a match a "banger", or even something bigger than that. But the same voices telling me those shows don't do psychology well are often telling me to just ignore WWE's weekly content and just watch the "banger" PLE matches, which, going by their logic, aren't really bangers because the story build was weak enough that I should just ignore Raw/Smackdown? Put another way: I always feel like those loudest voices want it to be both ways, that WWE is simultaneously "the McDonald's of wrestling", so easily accessible and whatnot, but somehow WWE is also the only place where people are doing "real wrestling" and psychology and not the "mindless spotfests" they accuse other promotions of revolving around. Holy shit, I never want to type "banger" again after this point, unless I'm visiting the UK and getting pub food. Did all the people who hated Raw stop watching, tune back in this week, and realize they were defrauded? What is happening here? HHH thinks he's smarter than me but as soon as I saw RAW open with Orton I knew Punk wasn't showing up til hour 3. that opener leading into Akira Tozawa doing a sex dance with someone called Beef Donut was merely what I deserved for not already tuning out.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2023 21:59:16 GMT -5
I know this is a WWE centered thread and idk if I can ask this, but my main question is... What can AEW even do to combat this at this point. Randy is back, Punk is back and we have Mania dead center in front of us. AEW really has no legs right now and they are punching way way WAY above their weight class. What do yall think? By this point, the stories are just perpetuating themselves. The WWE is white hot because the WE is white hot because the WWE is white hot. AEW is cold because it's cold. All the data-points supposedly leading people to these conclusions are actually cherry-picked or specifically interpreted based on what everyone already thinks. Imagine the general vibes of the two companies were reversed. Punk showing up in the WWE would be seen as a desperate, pathetic catering to a trainwreck; it'd be a victory to AEW. But as things stand, it's almost impossible to have ANYTHING happen to AEW and it feels like a victory. If it doesn't feel like a victory, we don't see it as a victory, so it becomes more evidence AEW's tumbling. Narratives fade and change, so AEW isn't necessarily doomed to have these vibes forever. But the general negativity of the fanbase is a huge part of the problem. A lot of it isn't their fault, with so many toxic anti-Elite anti-fans. But Tony does have a tendency to want to book to the types of fans who would have blue checkmarks, and keeping Punk employed so long was a huge own-goal in terms of souring his own fans. In terms of actual strategies, TK could actually think maybe about trying to grow his audience among the segment of the population where there's lots of room to grow: women. But apparently everyone who owns a wrestling company is, like, legally barred from doing that, so never mind. I've been saying for awhile that I think a lot of people need to accept that talk of what makes a show "hot" or "cold" (beyond pure business metrics, obviously) just feels kind of pointless at this stage; said it in the AEW section, but there are things WWE's doing right now that AEW would likely get pilloried for (absentee champs, repetitive show structure/weekly main events, etc.)...but it's working for WWE, and that's just how it goes sometimes. Current WWE deserves credit for doing something Vince constantly failed at: they got multiple babyfaces over this year, and I think that's contributing a lot to their current hot streak, but it's not like they're having Cody, Sami, et. al. go out there and tear the house down every week/month or having them do much that's particularly fresh story or character-wise, either. But when you're hot, you're hot; all the talk of "this company should do THIS to get hot" seems silly, because, as an example, AEW can't replicate being a long-established company with a built-in "been watching this since childhood" potential fanbase like WWE, nor replicate how many long time or lapsed WWE fans were likely thrilled to see the show is better now than it was under Vince. Plus...yeah, it's pretty clear at this point that WWE is driving a nice chunk of the wrestling media narrative, and they want it out there that "LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING that AEW has a very weird smell and actually picks its nose when no one's looking."
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2023 18:30:26 GMT -5
I mean...yeah, this is absolutely a thing. A lot of people grew up with WWF/WWE, many of them in an era with no major competition, so to many of them pro wrestling IS the way WWE presents it, from the camera work to the staging to Raw always being on Mondays to even the cadence of the promos they hear or how matches are laid out. They genuinely want it to be good, so when it sees an uptick in quality it really jumps out and they'll get excited. I can sit here and opine about why I've thought many of the promotions I've followed over the years have been better than WWF/WWE (hell, I still think 1998 WCW was an overall better show than '98 WWF), but I was lucky enough to have the means to seek out other options even during difficult times to find them, e.g. getting deep into buying ROH DVDs circa 2005-2010, and not everyone has had that. Regarding the post that followed this one up with a question about "do you think WWE got that benefit just by being around the longest?", well, yes, absolutely; people grow up with them, latch a part of their childhood to it, and for many that sticks for a long time, and makes glossing over crappy times a little easier for some people. So, when Triple H took over and suddenly Michael Cole didn't sound so much like a robot anymore, or there were actual callbacks to things that have happened in-universe, or the show didn't come off feeling like it was rewritten ten minutes before airtime, a lot of people absolutely took notice, and again, that turn coming as AEW went through multiple stages of Punk-related drama likely meant a bunch of folks who were WWE fans but who might've come over to follow Punk or someone else who'd jumped over go "I'm gonna focus more on the show I grew up with." Like I said before, there still seems to be tons of stuff that should be questioned about WWE's current booking, stuff AEW would likely get torn to shreds over if it were doing something similar, but the vibes have gotten so much more positive in part because many folks for whom "it's not really wrestling" unless they get the whole road to Wrestlemania season or whatever are happy to be watching a version of the company they've grown up with that doesn't feel like it's actively trying to insult them anymore. When people talk about built-in brand loyalty, nostalgia, etc., that's what they're talking about, and what no other company challenging WWE in the US can match. Hell, even look at how some people talk about the shows here, where we're obviously people who are deep in the weeds on this stuff: some folks (and this is their right, of course) will give a Raw or SD a 9 or 10 on a given week because "I liked one of the promos and a couple of the matches were good" - that's good will basically no other promotion gets. To use an example based on my avatar/signature, a lot of fans of upper echelon theme parks are pretty disgusted with Disney World in recent times, and more excited at what Universal's building in Florida; but if Disney announced they were really doing a deep renovation that restored a lot of their parks' original luster and what made them stand out, I have no doubt that tons of those fans (myself included) would want it to work and would want to see it for ourselves, because Disney's the market leader and what nearly all of us grew up with. Just to go off this, I grew up a WCW fan, when they folded I watched WWE but also discovered the indies and TNA. so while I have enjoyed WWE, I feel most of my childhood/teenage life I enjoyed the alternative more so I don't have the affection for WWE some do Yeah, I got into wrestling via early 90s WWF when I was a little kid, and that era will always bring a big goofy smile to my face, but once I turned around 9-10 I regularly stopped watching WWF whenever I felt bored with it; I remember someone who used to post here criticizing me as a mod a number of years ago for "being a wrestling board mod who almost never watches Wrestlemania" or something, but why would I watch Mania unless I was actively watching WWE at the time, outside of times I've been invited to someone else's house to watch it? I quit watching during the New Generation era, I got bored a couple of years into the Attitude Era, and around '04-'05 I finally realized "this show is never going to be for me", so it's hard for me to fully relate to the pull it might have for people who've stuck with it for years on end. I did it with WCW near the end (2000 broke me), multiple times with TNA, and even with ROH for awhile in the early 2010s, too, so my reflex has always been
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2023 18:21:30 GMT -5
I'm @#$%ing baffled by the way this league protects a shitty ass goon like Trouba.
This man took the golden child himself, Syndey-by God-Crosby, out of the playoffs a couple seasons ago with one of the dirtiest elbow shots you'll see in modern hockey, and nothing was done. He routinely skates around with his arms akimbo trying to level guys into concussions, and now he's trying to kill a man with a full-on swing to the face with his stick, and he gets a $5000 fine and NOTHING else?!
Does he have compromising pictures of everyone in the commissioner's office? Why is this guy, who sucks, treated with kids' gloves every @#$%ing year?
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2023 17:52:30 GMT -5
Do they still have a lot of awful selling and no selling? No one sells in modern professional wrestling, they just don't. AEW works a faster pace than WWE does, I mean I'm sure if someone flipped on Puro they could go crazy about no selling and high spot kickouts etc. I also don't think a lot of people even know what they mean by "no selling" anymore.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2023 17:43:47 GMT -5
It's like AEW have been a victim of their own success. Banger matches are expected now. They don't even get praise for that anymore. Even I'm guilty of this. Like Full Gear was a good show, yet I walked away thinking 'meh, ok show, only had one MOTY contender' I feel like an alien watching WWE. I just don't get it. But this thread shouldnt be a comparison of companys They deliver and deliver and deliver pretty much all the time on match quality...yet they're cold. Meanwhile a WWE show features things I have seen 572 times, doesn't deliver near the match quality, oh and somehow Jey Uso is getting a massive pop just cause I guess so that show is hot, I feel like this is bizarro world. I feel like when I watch the shows I enjoy the AEW product more, but I also think a huge number of people want the WWE to succeed because well "WWE is wrestling" or they grew up with it or some such. So they are cut a ton more slack and Triple H is still in his honey moon booking period where there is very little pushback to his booking. I mean...yeah, this is absolutely a thing. A lot of people grew up with WWF/WWE, many of them in an era with no major competition, so to many of them pro wrestling IS the way WWE presents it, from the camera work to the staging to Raw always being on Mondays to even the cadence of the promos they hear or how matches are laid out. They genuinely want it to be good, so when it sees an uptick in quality it really jumps out and they'll get excited. I can sit here and opine about why I've thought many of the promotions I've followed over the years have been better than WWF/WWE (hell, I still think 1998 WCW was an overall better show than '98 WWF), but I was lucky enough to have the means to seek out other options even during difficult times to find them, e.g. getting deep into buying ROH DVDs circa 2005-2010, and not everyone has had that. Regarding the post that followed this one up with a question about "do you think WWE got that benefit just by being around the longest?", well, yes, absolutely; people grow up with them, latch a part of their childhood to it, and for many that sticks for a long time, and makes glossing over crappy times a little easier for some people. So, when Triple H took over and suddenly Michael Cole didn't sound so much like a robot anymore, or there were actual callbacks to things that have happened in-universe, or the show didn't come off feeling like it was rewritten ten minutes before airtime, a lot of people absolutely took notice, and again, that turn coming as AEW went through multiple stages of Punk-related drama likely meant a bunch of folks who were WWE fans but who might've come over to follow Punk or someone else who'd jumped over go "I'm gonna focus more on the show I grew up with." Like I said before, there still seems to be tons of stuff that should be questioned about WWE's current booking, stuff AEW would likely get torn to shreds over if it were doing something similar, but the vibes have gotten so much more positive in part because many folks for whom "it's not really wrestling" unless they get the whole road to Wrestlemania season or whatever are happy to be watching a version of the company they've grown up with that doesn't feel like it's actively trying to insult them anymore. When people talk about built-in brand loyalty, nostalgia, etc., that's what they're talking about, and what no other company challenging WWE in the US can match. Hell, even look at how some people talk about the shows here, where we're obviously people who are deep in the weeds on this stuff: some folks (and this is their right, of course) will give a Raw or SD a 9 or 10 on a given week because "I liked one of the promos and a couple of the matches were good" - that's good will basically no other promotion gets. To use an example based on my avatar/signature, a lot of fans of upper echelon theme parks are pretty disgusted with Disney World in recent times, and more excited at what Universal's building in Florida; but if Disney announced they were really doing a deep renovation that restored a lot of their parks' original luster and what made them stand out, I have no doubt that tons of those fans (myself included) would want it to work and would want to see it for ourselves, because Disney's the market leader and what nearly all of us grew up with.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2023 17:00:52 GMT -5
Nah, see, signing Edge meant that AEW is now a "retirement home", while bringing back Orton and Punk means WWE is "the place to be"! ...What do you mean, "we're just uncritically parroting something a source within WWE was trying to spread around as a narrative", that's not very brother-like of you, dude! And yeah, the whole "THIS is what matters in wrestling!" stuff as if wrestling is anything like actual pro sports in determining quality is something straight out of 1986. it’s optics. Randy and Phil came back to that crowd and reaction. Adam’s been doing poorly attended houses
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2023 7:41:13 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that WWE was reduced to signing an aging AEW reject like Punk because they couldn't get any of the big stars like Jay White nor Hangman nor Omega nor The Bucks nor especially Ospreay. Nah, see, signing Edge meant that AEW is now a "retirement home", while bringing back Orton and Punk means WWE is "the place to be"! ...What do you mean, "we're just uncritically parroting something a source within WWE was trying to spread around as a narrative", that's not very brother-like of you, dude! And yeah, the whole "THIS is what matters in wrestling!" stuff as if wrestling is anything like actual pro sports in determining quality is something straight out of 1986.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2023 22:06:46 GMT -5
Why does AEW have negative threads and WWE don't? I don't care what u guys think WWE is f***ing corny isn't even a wrestling show IMO AEW is the best wrestling show on TV period We do get some negative stuff about WWE here; like, Roman's thread is more than half of the posters going "where the @#$% is this guy?" Fine to like whatever you like and dislike whatever you dislike, but don't need to come off like we're calling out other posters here.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2023 21:28:50 GMT -5
As long as AEW entertains me and stays in business, it's all good. Half the things that get thrown around like the grievous sins of AEW don't even really track to me, like Toni Storm having a 'WWE gimmick' when we saw her in WWE and she sure as shit didn't have a tenth of a gimmick there. I guess there's a fundamental disconnect where some people loudly insist AEW needs to change and it's time to change and X is proof it's wrong and bad and different now but nah man it's going fine, any promotion is going to hit some rocky times and I think complaints about its flaws and especially weird hyperfixations on shit that's barely there overshadow the ways AEW is doing well right now to treat it like the show is a shambles completely unablew to escape its own sins. Yeah, it's honestly exhausting to read all the takes on "what's wrong" when a lot of them come off as either projection of something that's barely there or coming off as someone following results more than how something was actually performed; like, people arguing that the MJF/White match was overbooked and could have/should have been done more straightforward makes total sense to me, but we've had arguments that Jay White is buried and that the multiple months of looking strong and winning on TV ahead of the title match just doesn't matter, or that MJF is now "Supercena" despite him cheating a lot and basically just doing the "good guy persevering through stacked odds" schtick for a couple of months now, not literal years. It makes a lot of the "here's what's wrong with AEW" critiques come off as "here's what I like or dislike, if they just did what I think they should then business would improve"; so much of it has often been contradicting, like "they're too much like WWE now " vs. "why don't they do this more like WWE would?" Or hell, stuff like "there's too many tournaments/belts now!", it's fine if that's one's opinion, but turning that into " this is why they're not hot right now" is just projection. Ultimately, I'm of the mind that a few things happened in a row: -AEW took advantage of WWE laying off so many people during the pandemic; it made sense to do that, given that they'd already blown past initial projections for Dynamite's ratings and WWE still seemed like it was mostly in a rut, and would make AEW look like the big destination. Like, from Malakai Black, to Toni Storm, to Andrade, to Miro, to Keith Lee, to Swerve, and others, why wouldn't you dip into that pool? But it's definitely true that it meant both the roster getting much larger and new focus on different talents, something some day one AEW fans might not have liked. I think some people have overplayed the whole "ex-WWE guys" thing as a problem, but it did mean change and difference, and that'll always cause some disagreement. -AEW went through a lot of chaos around Punk: all his drama, injuries, and having to rewrite so much material because there was a lot booked around him. Combine that with some other unfortunately timed injuries to big names, and it mad a lot of late '22 through around mid-'23 tough to navigate. I didn't think the show wasn't bad or anything during this time, but it was tough to ignore that there was a lot of parts being moved around, and some of it just didn't click. -Oh, side note, how about the weird stretch of time where they bumped up ticket prices and seemed to scale back on local live event promotions? Good to see they've gotten the ship righted on that for the most part, but seriously, what the hell was that all about? -Unfortunately for AEW, that bumpy road rose up at a time when WWE got hot; Vince is gone, his worst tropes and habits are minimized, and when WWE does well it usually doesn't create a "rising tide lifts all boats" situation for the rest of the industry. Some disaffected WWE and/or CM Punk fans went to AEW for awhile, now some of them have gone back to WWE. What all of this has done is create the narratives we've been discussing: "see, THIS is why AEW isn't hot right now, it's because of (insert personal booking preference not being done)", when frankly it's more just that the market leader is hot right now and that coincided with internal challenges for the secondary company. It creates an environment where we're placing every single decision AEW makes under a microscope that goes beyond simple "did I enjoy that?" discussion and into the realm of "the survival of the company is at stake!" (spoiler: it probably isn't), and meantime WWE can pretty much do no wrong, or at least can get away with things that AEW would be (pretty rightly, in many cases) absolutely savaged for: their top champ never being around, him having the exact same kind of title match for multiple years now, the hottest act in the woman's division rarely defending her title, etc. Or hell, how the potential of Cody/Roman II is being treated as a massive deal right now when neither guy has exactly been lighting the world on fire since last WM (Cody's win against Brock being the notable exception there), and frankly both got into storylines after Mania where it came off like Cody should've won while Roman should've been dealing with the fallout of losing. Note: not saying all of this stuff WWE is currently doing is actually bad or whatever, just that when you're hot, you're hot (especially when you're already the market leader), and when there's a narrative that you can't do anything right then that'll be the story, instead (especially when you're the newer/secondary company). Actually, sidebar, and I ask this sincerely since I don't really watch much WWE so I may just be totally out of the loop: what's Cody been feuding with Judgment Day over? I ask because it seems like Cody/Sami/some other face sometimes vs. Judgment Day has been the main event of a ton of Raws for awhile now, but when I saw some people critiquing the War Games match last night it seemed to revolve around not feeling like there was enough kayfabe hatred/stakes involved. If that's the case, then it'd be a case of what I'm describing: if Dynamite ended each episode with the same general combination of faces and heels facing each other for months and there wasn't a fleshed out story to go with it, it'd be a pretty massive topic of conversation and criticism. Apologies if I'm off-base on this one.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2023 12:33:13 GMT -5
Tony repeatedly made himself like a jackass with his handling of the punk situations and by extension made his promotion a laughingstock. WWE has gained a recognized name that is at least going to move some merch. If he ends up going nuclear for them too, I expect WWE to at least handle it better than Tony did. This is LOLAEW territory. LOLAEW would be if they never fired Punk. And yeah, echoing others here, false narratives have absolutely drowned out just about any reasonable (or even enjoyable) discussion there is to have about AEW for months now.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2023 12:00:48 GMT -5
Miro, Malakai Black, Andrade and Buddy Matthews are the obvious ones FTR also of course FTR have multi-year deals in AEW right now and claim it’s their last big contracts, though wrestling being a carny-fest means that could potentially not be true. Either way, they’re not going anywhere for at least another two years or so. As for other names that have been brought up: Omega, Jericho, and I think Miro all signed multi-year extensions fairly recently, too.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2023 6:10:36 GMT -5
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 25, 2023 12:03:42 GMT -5
I want Detective Samoa Joe to be on the case. "Check it out, Max, I caught one of the devil guy's goons; I'm gonna work him over 'til he tells us who the culprit is." "Uh, Joe, are you just holding the guy's severed head and attached spinal column?" "Yeah." "..." "...what?"
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 25, 2023 11:57:11 GMT -5
He wont drop it until the Angels win the pennant (note, I have no real knowledge of current baseball, so I dont know how likely that is to happen, I'm just trying to create a meme). I do have knowledge of current baseball, and I can assure you that the Angels, as currently constituted, will never, ever win the pennant.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 25, 2023 11:45:22 GMT -5
Big Bill vs. Powerhouse Hobbs vs. Miro vs. Brody King please. I admit, I prefer singles matches to 3 or 4-ways, so I just submit we do what someone suggested around here recently and just get the full time Meat Division started: one on one matches, fifteen minute time limits, strikes and throws are the order of the day, no stepping out of the ring, submissions allowed but mostly reserved for attempted finishers. Samoa Joe as inaugural champion, then add Bill, Hobbs, Miro, Brody, Shane Taylor, Keith Lee, Brian Cage, fly in Shingo Takagi and Tomohiro Ishii, use the combined meat slapping to draw Brock Lesnar in from out of the wilderness (he won't even need a contract, he'll just appear like a bear drawn by the aroma of fresh salmon), and then use that combined power to summon the spirit of Vader into reincarnation.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 24, 2023 11:33:13 GMT -5
At the end of dinner last night, I mentioned that I'd likely get home and check out the MST3K marathon a mused "I hope it's The Giant Gila Monster".
I get home, and...it's The Giant Gila Monster. I had no idea the schedule had already been posted, so I was slightly weirded out.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 24, 2023 11:23:56 GMT -5
Seriously, dude outsmarted MJF for almost two months straight. Yes, MJF beat him with one leg, but that doesn't demean or undo any of Jay's accomplishments before that night. In your estimation what’s the realistic next step for Jay White to make sure he keeps his momentum? And do you think Khan will actually do it? The guy's in the round robin tournament and just beat Rush last night, so I guess that just might play a role. I'm not really sure how we're supposed to have some of these conversations when the PPV happened less than a week ago and some of the talk is "nothing that happened in the month or two leading up to that matters."
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 24, 2023 9:34:52 GMT -5
Saw Jay White's postmatch comments, too, classic unhinged post-G1 mach Switchblade; I know they're putting these on Twitter, but they should just pull a NJPW, put up a screen behind the guys, and have them all come to the back to give their comments right away after the match, and then put them on YouTube, as well, because I dig the presentation on them.
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