Randy Savage vs Jake Roberts.

[George Harrison]

another thread that has basically ran away from its beginning point.


Anyone - Savage VS Jake?

[ddt]

issue said:

another thread that has basically ran away from its beginning point.


Anyone - Savage VS Jake?

You're right -- back to the subject. To reiterate, it's a great, underrated match. The back-and-forth storytelling was classic. Even Hebner getting dumped on his head at one point was enough to get the adrenaline going. Definitely one of SNME's best matches ever.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

ddt said:

I'll say it again: it's really sad when style is more important (and will get you further) than substance.

Style>Substance is the most important aspect of the art of pro wrestling, in any part of the world- and has been for about 40 to 50 years. That's where the appeal of the light-heavyweight style lies.

[Hiroshi Hase]

It was a great match, but the promos leading into were great and helped me look forward to the match more.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

I love great promo ability and charisma. But that does not equal catchphrases. Roberts delivered a great promo on a consistant basis. The only catchphrase I remember him using was "Trust me", and it was never the focus of his promo.

I enjoy good in ring action more than anything, and there are several ways to accomplish that. It doesn't have to be a Dean Malenko in there to do it, though he's one of my favorites. Someone pointed out that Jake didn't put on wrestling clinics, which is true. But his ring psychology and storytelling was great, which led to great matches.

I like a mix of style and substance, probably leaning a little more toward substance. To me, someone like Cena is strictly style. Hogan wasn't always, but was definitely far more style. Austin could bring it in the ring, but fell more toward substance once the "Stone Cold" thing took off. The Rock, while no technical master, could weave a good match, and had a lot of style.

As far as preferring strictly style over substance, I'll quote a Jim Cornette promo: "And you know, there are some people who want to see that stuff, and God bless you, because the world needs more suckers like you"

[Hiroshi Hase]

joeyonly said:

I love great promo ability and charisma. But that does not equal catchphrases. Roberts delivered a great promo on a consistant basis. The only catchphrase I remember him using was "Trust me", and it was never the focus of his promo.

I enjoy good in ring action more than anything, and there are several ways to accomplish that. It doesn't have to be a Dean Malenko in there to do it, though he's one of my favorites. Someone pointed out that Jake didn't put on wrestling clinics, which is true. But his ring psychology and storytelling was great, which led to great matches.

I like a mix of style and substance, probably leaning a little more toward substance. To me, someone like Cena is strictly style. Hogan wasn't always, but was definitely far more style. Austin could bring it in the ring, but fell more toward substance once the "Stone Cold" thing took off. The Rock, while no technical master, could weave a good match, and had a lot of style.

As far as preferring strictly style over substance, I'll quote a Jim Cornette promo: "And you know, there are some people who want to see that stuff, and God bless you, because the world needs more suckers like you"

It doesn't make someone a "sucker" or bad, because they like the catchphrases/promos only. A casual fan could care less if the guy is doing hurricanranas or could chain-wrestle till tomorrow, it's about entertaining people, a mix is fine, but if a fan likes the catchphrases/promos, it doesn't make them any less of a fan.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

Again, I've no problem with good promos. Hell, I love them. I could watch dvds of nothing but classic promos.

But when someone's watching just to hear "If you smell what the Rock is cooking" or "And that's the bottom line cause Stone Cold said so" or "whatcha gonna do when Hulk Hogan/Hulkamania/the 24 inch pythons run wild on you" or "the champ is here", then no, I don't consider them a wrestling fan. They could get the same fix by watching Saturday Night Live.

I'm not even saying the guys I mentioned above can't cut a good promo. I'm just saying they relied too heavily on certain phrases, and that there was a section of the audience who seemed to be there just for those phrases.

[Hiroshi Hase]

joeyonly said:

Again, I've no problem with good promos. Hell, I love them. I could watch dvds of nothing but classic promos.

But when someone's watching just to hear "If you smell what the Rock is cooking" or "And that's the bottom line cause Stone Cold said so" or "whatcha gonna do when Hulk Hogan/Hulkamania/the 24 inch pythons run wild on you" or "the champ is here", then no, I don't consider them a wrestling fan. They could get the same fix by watching Saturday Night Live.

I'm not even saying the guys I mentioned above can't cut a good promo. I'm just saying they relied too heavily on certain phrases, and that there was a section of the audience who seemed to be there just for those phrases.

Then I guess they aren't a "wrestling" fan, but then does it matter really? They enjoy the segments and enjoy the catchphrases, so that's all that really matters.

If the majority of the audience which are mostly comprised of casual fans wants Cena to overcome the odds or Hogan to cup his ear and pose to the crowd, why not give it to them? I know smarks hate it to death, but that's what the casual fan would rather see than a 30-minute wrestling match.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

joeyonly said:

But when someone's watching just to hear "If you smell what the Rock is cooking" or "And that's the bottom line cause Stone Cold said so" or "whatcha gonna do when Hulk Hogan/Hulkamania/the 24 inch pythons run wild on you" or "the champ is here", then no, I don't consider them a wrestling fan. They could get the same fix by watching Saturday Night Live.

I would. Wrestling is a beast with more than one head.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

And that's fine. Eveybody's entitled to their view, and there is no right or wrong answer on this.

It's just impossible for me to classify them as wrestling fans when they could get the exact same entertainment from (as I mentioned) SNL skits, or commercials. How is (for example) "If you smell what the Rock is cooking?" different from a chihuaha saying "Drop the chalupa?"

[Hiroshi Hase]

joeyonly said:

And that's fine. Eveybody's entitled to their view, and there is no right or wrong answer on this.

It's just impossible for me to classify them as wrestling fans when they could get the exact same entertainment from (as I mentioned) SNL skits, or commercials. How is (for example) "If you smell what the Rock is cooking?" different from a chihuaha saying "Drop the chalupa?"

You're right, but I'm sure they don't really care if they are classified as wrestling fans or not, it's just entertainment and they seem entertained from what I see on Raw/SD. I don't think they pay for the actual wrestling anyways, just to be entertained.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

How I saw it came from personal experience. In my creative writing class when I was a freshman in high school, all discussions of catchphrases and interviews would disintegrate into a discussion of the last wrestling show- this girl I knew was going on about how the Rock didn't care about anyone but his fans, and then it went into her sheer disdain for Kurt Angle (this was 2000) and how he shouldn't have won at No Mercy. I don't know what you've come across, though.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

And again, that's fine. Obviously, they have every right to watch the shows, buy tickets, etc. Honestly, the only thing I have against them is that their large numbers have led to wrestling changing to accomodate them.

This is why I would love there to be a show like the old Tuesday Night Titans. Purely skits and entertainment, maybe a little bit of action mixed in.

But, as I said in another thread, I often come off as the "bitter old school fan"

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

joeyonly said:

And again, that's fine. Obviously, they have every right to watch the shows, buy tickets, etc. Honestly, the only thing I have against them is that their large numbers have led to wrestling changing to accomodate them.

This is why I would love there to be a show like the old Tuesday Night Titans. Purely skits and entertainment, maybe a little bit of action mixed in.

But, as I said in another thread, I often come off as the "bitter old school fan"

No, I wouldn't mind that either.

[ddt]

issue said:

another thread that has basically ran away from its beginning point.


Anyone - Savage VS Jake?

Sorry, Issue -- I tried to get it back on the original topic...

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

I'll apologize as well, as this was just the right day for me to get off on a rant about this kind of thing.

[skillz]

joeyonly said:

I enjoy good in ring action more than anything, and there are several ways to accomplish that. It doesn't have to be a Dean Malenko in there to do it, though he's one of my favorites. Someone pointed out that Jake didn't put on wrestling clinics, which is true. But his ring psychology and storytelling was great, which led to great matches.

Just to clarify, when I said Jake didn't have any classic matches, that wasn't meant as a negative. Jake was one of my favorites, and still is.

Jake had the intangible that makes a good match (as you outlined), and that's what guys like Rock, Hogan, Austin, etc, also had: ring psychology and storytelling. It's about making the fans 1) care about what is going on in the ring and 2) invest their emotions into the particular match.

To me, that takes talent. That takes "substance" to pull off. That's why when people say Hogan and Rock were limited in the ring, I find it completely wrong. They were able to get the most out of very little, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Roberts didn't do anything fancy in the ring either, but he made me care. That's all that matters.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

I have to apologize too, I made it even worse.

[skillz]

ddt said:

issue said:

another thread that has basically ran away from its beginning point.

Anyone - Savage VS Jake?

Sorry, Issue -- I tried to get it back on the original topic...

If this thread was solely used to talk about that one particular match, then this thread would be on the 2nd page by now completely ignored. Yes it was a good match, I remember seeing it when it happened, but there's not much discussion that can derive from it.

This thread deviated a bit from the central point, but it's not a big deal. Unless the thread starter was only looking for "nice find" or "good match" type replies.