Fan Thoughts (also posted in WWE section)

[HMARK Center]

NOTE: I posted this in the WWE section due to all the bile a lot of people are spewing a whole day later concerning Cena, but I wanted to see what our crowd here in (w)rest thought about this issue, as the two sections each have a nice pool of unique posters, so I'm also posting it here.





So, with all the backlash against Cena's win last night, and with the memory of the ROH show I just went to at the Manhattan Center still fresh in my mind, an interesting thought occurred to me concerning how fans go about enjoying a show. I'm not here to tell anyone HOW to cheer, but it's something I hadn't really thought about before today.

During the World Title match at the ROH show between Bryan Danielson and Takeshi Morishima, the crowd around me was mostly pro-Danielson, and would give Morishima some heel heat for using his size to his advantage against the smaller man. However, despite that, the crowd would still acknowledge when Morishima pulled off either an impressive move, or made something look particularly effective. When he won at the end of the match, the reaction wasn't boos against Morishima (who's more tweener than anything, I suppose), but some respectful cheering for him and some chants of "MORISHIMA!". Bottom line: a lot of people wanted Dragon to win because they like Dragon, but still had a ton of respect for the champion.

Juxtapose that with the vibe I'm getting from SummerSlam: Randy Orton vs. John Cena. Call me crazy, but I don't think most of us here (correct me if I'm wrong) are particularly crazy for either guy. Orton's got a bland streak and relies too heavily on restholds, while Cena's, well...Cena. However, I'm reading things like "I marked SO hard for the RKO when he hit it", and it made me question why.

The conclusion I've reached is a simple one, but, again, one I hadn't really thought much about: people were so much more concerned with Cena losing the title than with Orton winning it that they were willing to mark for anything Orton did.

There's the thing: many of the people watching it were tense, excited, etc., but not for something positive (Orton GAINING the title), but for something negative (Cena LOSING it). I don't mean negative/positive in the "bad/good" way, either.

I suddenly remembered feeling that way when I would watch old Triple H or Jeff Jarrett defenses. I wasn't watching in the hopes that so-and-so would win, but in the hopes that the guys with the undeserved (in my mind) strangleholds on the belts would go away. I wasn't enjoying the matches for what they were, I was cheering for something so that, in the non-kayfabe world, the company could move on from something I was tired of.

When I realized that, I had to ask myself: is this really worth it? I'd be taking myself out of the immediate action, focusing more on the real-world implications of a title match (i.e. "how will this affect ratings?", or "They need to set up this storyline instead of that one!", etc.), rather than looking forward to a title match that SHOULD be one of the better matches on a given card.

Now, I'm not saying that the reaction to the ROH match is how every title match should end. Obviously, if Morishima were a straight up heel and Danielson a face and the crowd cheered for Morishima winning, something wouldn't really be right. But that's not what the situation was.

Let me put it this way: People were cheering FOR a Danielson win over Morishima. People were cheering AGAINST Cena retaining the title over Orton.

There's a big difference, and it's a huge difference in mentality. I walked into Danielson/Morishima (and Briscoes vs. Steen/Generico, for that matter) knowing that, whoever won, I was in for an amazing match and a fun night. I can't imagine going into something like Orton vs. Cena that same way, if I were hoping so hard for Cena to drop the strap.

I'm not saying "shut up and cheer Cena!", I'm saying that maybe, if you find yourself doing this a lot, it could be time to start reconsidering your viewing habits. Is it really worth the aggravation? Is it really fun? Obviously, I'm not going to answer that for anyone, and what I'm saying is all opinion, not fact.

Regardless, I just thought it was something interesting to touch upon.

[poi zen rana]

i agree with you as much here as i do in the wwe forum. it is things like this that make roh my favorite promotion to watch currently. they seem to have a handle on the things i enjoy about wrestling where as the wwe leaves me confused and frustrated with sports entertainment. that is why i channel hop between wwe and something else usually if i am watching it.

[HMARK Center]

I'll put it this way: I remember a Benoit vs. Trips match back in 2004, and while I was a true Benoit fan at the time...I had gotten to the point where I was more concerned with the idea that Triple H might win, than I was concerned with the idea that Benoit might lose.

If I had thought that in a kayfabe way, than fine; that would be me booing the heel, etc. like that. But I was thinking it in an "Oh my God, if he wins, we're right back at Square One" kind of way. That scared me, after I realized what I had been thinking.

[Tyfo]

I definatly get what your saying. But for me, cheering for Cena to lose the title IS fun. I don't get down and threaten peoples lives or anything when Cena retains. But I do like Orton, so it was a combined case of wanting Cena to lose as well as wanting Orton to win.

Thats the case with most of his matches actually. Michaels, Edge, RVD, etc. All those guys I like more then I like Cena. But in the case of a Khali or Umaga, I was just cheering for Cena to drop the title, just for a change of pace basically. It dosent make my blood pressure go up or anything when Cena wins. I just say, eh, maybe next time and move on.

As for ROH fans. Im actually really suprised how well ROH crowds have taken to Morishima. When I heard he had won the title, I thought it would be a Cena situation. Here was some guy from Japan (not a really big/known name from Japan at that) coming in and pretty quickly winning the top title. I thought ROH fans would crap all over it. But that dosent seem to be the case for the most part. There seems to be a certain respect for him.

[hollywood]

This is really one of the biggest reasons I've started to prefer ROH and indy promotions as a whole over WWE, or even TNA. I look at matchups and think, damn this'll be good! Rather than looking at WWE/TNA matchups and thinking, Geezus, they're gonna make Cena/Angle win again!?

As for me, I got to see Summer Slam, and I didn't care who won. I just had fun watching it. And to be honest, I popped more than anything for Randy's "THE SUNNAVA***** MUST DIE!!!" chinlocks he kept locking on Cena. I'm sorry, but it's just hilarious to me.

[comahan]

Off topic, but was Orton a resthold whore as a face too? Cause Ive been under the impression that he does it because hes a heel.

Of course, I could be wrong, as I didnt watch when he was a face, but yea.

[hollywood]

comahan said:

Off topic, but was Orton a resthold whore as a face too? Cause Ive been under the impression that he does it because hes a heel.

Of course, I could be wrong, as I didnt watch when he was a face, but yea.

He's always been accused of using them, as far as I know, but I really only noticed the complaining after he was a heel. But that could just be when I started paying attention.

Like I said, I get a kick out of how intense he looks with those chinlocks. It's just funny.

"I'M GONNA SQUEEZE UNTIL HIS HEAD POPS OFF DAMMIT!!!"

[Mayonnaise]

comahan said:

Off topic, but was Orton a resthold whore as a face too? Cause Ive been under the impression that he does it because hes a heel.

Not really. He would regularly bust out top rope moves, dropkicks and other more high impact moves.

When it comes to Cena, I haven't cared in awhile. I am an Orton fan so I was cheering for him to win more than for Cena to lose. On the flip side, when he was facing Umaga, I wasn't caring who won as I didn't like either (granted Umaga did win me over with those matches).

I guess what I am trying to say is that when I like his opponent, I am rooting for them to win, if I don't like who he faces, then I just don't care.

[Andrew is Good]

I think Cena has gotten that a few times, but again, I'm really against the idea of Randy Orton and his restholds. I think out of all the wrestlers today, from everyone, Randy Orton is the best. The match was excellent, and what Orton was doing was extremely smart. He was saving so much energy in the match and was able to stalk John Cena throughout.

Also, you're talking about how they are cheering against Cena. Well, it's not like that's a bad thing. Randy Orton is a heel, and if they were cheering for Orton, which you don't really believe, that would actually hurt Orton. So once Orton would get the title and feud with a strong babyface like Triple H, they would go back to booing Randy Orton.

Comparing the Morishima/Danielson match to the Cena/Orton match is like comparing apples to oranges. Morishima is not really that much of a heel, as he doesn't do all that many heelish things. He's only really a heel because he wrestles babyfaces most of the time. So the atmosphere is obviously going to be completely different.

I think that Orton would be a great champion, but he's not supposed to be liked in the first place. Who cares if people here hate him. Orton's a great heel. He doesn't do flashy things to impress people, he goes out and gets the job done. People say Orton uses restholds, which is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever heard. Look at Randy Orton. Does that man look like he needs to rest at any point during a match. What he does is he wears down his opponent. He gets on top of him, he weakens them, he hits some high offensive moves, and then when they're weak enough, bam, RKO, and it's over. From a psychology standpoint, Randy Orton is the best wrestler in the world today. Does he fly off the top rope, does he do crazy kicks, does he do extra stiff chops. No. But normally, Orton goes out there and gets the job done. He's not out there to impress the fans. If he did, it would help people in cheering him. Orton is a heel in so many ways, where he doesn't want anybody cheering him. The only reason last night he was cheered was because people hated Cena and wanted him to lose.

It's like with Edge. When Edge beat Cena, he was cheered like crazy. The next night, booed out of the building. That's what would have happened with Orton. People wanted Danielson to win because he was a strong babyface. Cena, while a strong babyface at times, people have gotten sick of him. Cena has been like this for 2 years. Danielson just started his new run recently, and they also wanted to see him get the belt again off of Morishima.

But yeah, also, it still was a great match, despite all of Orton's "restholds". I really despise that term now.

[HMARK Center]

I'm not really seeing your point. My point was that Cena is one of those figures who's so divisive that people will watch him more in the hopes of him losing than in the hopes of being entertained.

As for Orton, again, I don't see your point. As a heel, he should be hated, in a kayfabe sense. If he's being cheered against your top babyface, something's wrong. Morishima is tweener and Danielson leans heel sometimes, as well, but I'm saying that the ROH crowd wasn't going to "riot" over either one winning or losing.

And I'm not sure I caught the "Orton is the best" line. That's a BIG leap.

[Andrew is Good]

hitmanmark said:

I'm not really seeing your point. My point was that Cena is one of those figures who's so divisive that people will watch him more in the hopes of him losing than in the hopes of being entertained.

As for Orton, again, I don't see your point. As a heel, he should be hated, in a kayfabe sense. If he's being cheered against your top babyface, something's wrong. Morishima is tweener and Danielson leans heel sometimes, as well, but I'm saying that the ROH crowd wasn't going to "riot" over either one winning or losing.

And I'm not sure I caught the "Orton is the best" line. That's a BIG leap.

I think that using the comparison is a little off thought, because Morishima's reaction and Danielson's would be completely different.

And again, it is because people are sick of Cena's run as heel which is why they want him to lose, and Orton was that anybody that could beat him. I agree with your point there. I agree with the point as a whole, I just don't understand the Morishima/Danielson comparison, because essentially you could take any two pairings and get a result similar to that.

I guess a lot of me was defending Orton, who put on a hell of a match, and despite my disappointment, I was really excited during the match and thought it was excellent. And I don't know, it seems like you're trying to convince people to stop watching, even though it is fun for people. It's fun sometimes for people to bitch and moan, it means they have passion. Sure, I was disappointed, but I had a lot of fun.

I guess like, I didn't really get the point of your post either, and I read it over a few times while posting this. Haha, I think I was mostly defending Orton. I also stand by the best in the world thing, well, at least in the psychology department. Maybe not the in ring work, but in the psychology department, it would be tough for anyone to touch him.

[Galluchadore]

hitmanmark said:

I'm not really seeing your point. My point was that Cena is one of those figures who's so divisive that people will watch him more in the hopes of him losing than in the hopes of being entertained.
.

Thats the problem with Cena he is supposed to be a baby face and the point of a baby face is to have the ENTIRE crowd love him, feel sympathy for him when hes getting beat, get behind when he makes his comeback , and support him enough for him to pull off the win. He doesn't do that with a certain segment of the audience ... the same audience that WWE seemed to cater and care so much about during the Monday night wars the ever important 18-34 males. Who in my opinion have flocked to MMA and more proof that came on Saturday when a room full of former wrestling fans watched the UFC ppv . But back to Cena he does his role as a baby face poorly he doesn't make the whole audience care enough about him. Think about if you were watching a movie say Spider Man and most of the audience likes him and wants to see him over come the villain and get the girl. But there still another segment that wants to see him die because they don't like his power, his personality, whatever . that doesn't make a good hero in a film you need to get the whole audience to love or hate you in the case of wrestling. Sadly the wwe doesn't realizes this and put the merchandise sales above the crowd reactions

[Timmy8271]

It's just wrestling. It's not the end of the world if Cena's champion.

[HMARK Center]

timmy8271 said:

It's just wrestling. It's not the end of the world if Cena's champion.

If that was directed at the original post, that wasn't my point at all.

My point was more directed at the fans themselves, the ones who lose it when he wins yet order each show to see, and at the strangeness of a company willingly dividing a crowd behind their biggest act.

[Timmy8271]

It wasn't directed at the original post, It was directed at everyone. After skimming through the original post, I agree. If you are that negative and worked up about some guy keeping a title, you need to take a breath and realise 1. There's alternatives and 2. it's just wrestling. I remember watching ROH in 2005/2006 and being so pissed that Danielson kept on fight 60 minute snoozefests, you know what I did, I stopped watching. I didn't want to end my life or get so angry I boycotted the whole promotion, I just stopped watching Danielson matches.

[hollywood]

timmy8271 said:

It wasn't directed at the original post, It was directed at everyone. After skimming through the original post, I agree. If you are that negative and worked up about some guy keeping a title, you need to take a breath and realise 1. There's alternatives and 2. it's just wrestling. I remember watching ROH in 2005/2006 and being so pissed that Danielson kept on fight 60 minute snoozefests, you know what I did, I stopped watching. I didn't want to end my life or get so angry I boycotted the whole promotion, I just stopped watching Danielson matches.

Damn. Those Danielson matches were one of the main reasons I got in to ROH?

[Mr. Mediocre]

hollywood said:

timmy8271 said:

It wasn't directed at the original post, It was directed at everyone. After skimming through the original post, I agree. If you are that negative and worked up about some guy keeping a title, you need to take a breath and realise 1. There's alternatives and 2. it's just wrestling. I remember watching ROH in 2005/2006 and being so pissed that Danielson kept on fight 60 minute snoozefests, you know what I did, I stopped watching. I didn't want to end my life or get so angry I boycotted the whole promotion, I just stopped watching Danielson matches.

Damn. Those Danielson matches were one of the main reasons I got in to ROH?

Well everyone's different, hollywood.

That said, I'm yet to see a 60 minute match with Dragon live but when I do, I'm looking forward to it.

[Timmy8271]

I didn't mind them at first but when he started doing these long ass matches every show, It started to get annoying. But like Mediocre said, everyone's different.

['Foretold' Joker]

I could narrow it down to a simple ...

The casual fan wants to be entertained. A year long title reign does not provide entertainment as more folk are interested in seeing if Cena will lose.

You can look back at the last few years of the RAW Cena era and see if that is true with the big storylines. The answers will no doubt feature Mr McMahon instead of Cena.

McMahon vs HBK
McMahon vs DX
McMahon vs Lashley
McMahon blowing up, rehashed into bastard son storyline.

The problem with the current apathy is that really the champ maybe here but he's not centre stage. Back when Austin was the main guy he dominated the show, likewise with The Rock or Triple H. Vince may have been around but he wasn't the focal point at these points.

Unfortunatly that changed somwhere along the line and Vince became the main heel of the show. thus he gets all the big storylines (Not matches but certainly the best creative stuff).

Most title changes on wwe recently have been won due to tournaments, battle royales or rumbles.

Edge = Money in the Bank x 2 + once by cheating.
RVD = Money in the Bank
Rey Mysterio = Royal Rumble
Booker T = King of the Ring
Kurt Angle = Battle Royale
Undertaker = Royal Rumble
The Great Khali = Battle Royal

Only Batista and Cena have done it without using these storyline methods.

Now to me that shows a serious lack of creative ability and also makes me care less about the wrestlers. Now then let's take out Vince from his storylines and see what happens.

DX vs Cena & Edge (All 4 are over with the more serious marine Cena gimmick who is forced to team with backstabbing selfish Edge.) That would have been fresh could have created some interesting stipulations around the main belt and caught the fans attention.

McMahon and the that explosion. (Who killed McMahon may have been fun it may have not, but if it had been John Cena instead then it could have been something exciting. Everyone has a motive and everyone would want to know what happens to the actual title.)

Thus I suspect the reaon folks aren't caring is all the creative enrgy is going into McMahon storylines and not the actual champions.

[Mr. Mediocre]

That's a great theory, Joker.

That said, having John Cena's car explode would have been a disaster even bigger than the exploding limo. I can just imagine the ratings plummeting because of all the upset children and parents complaining.