Kae
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,610
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Post by Kae on Jan 15, 2008 16:13:54 GMT -5
I can see arguments both ways. On the one hand, the highspot from hell (good phrase) should be saved for the PPV. If you're going to take those risks, it should be during the big payday for the company. On the other hand, such big, dramatic moments (since the E does them so rarely) builds up buzz around the feud and that could lead to increased buyrates.
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Post by valiens on Jan 15, 2008 16:42:22 GMT -5
Michael Moore critiques wrestling? Jusssssssssss kiddin. If it was THE Michael Moore, he would have blamed the Benoit tragedy and steroids on Bush. I'm pretty sure those are the only crimes you can't pin on Bush.
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Parrish
El Dandy
Banana Man Wouldn't Book That!!!
Posts: 8,729
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Post by Parrish on Jan 15, 2008 16:43:40 GMT -5
"I thought the spot was a little sloppy on Jeff's part, he could have executed the swanton a little more crisp, but thats just my opinion. I was always a perfectionist in the ring." --- Bill Kazmaier
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metylerca
King Koopa
Loves Him Some Backstreet Boys.
Don't be alarmed.
Posts: 12,479
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Post by metylerca on Jan 15, 2008 17:24:57 GMT -5
I like how people would dig a spot like that, with a non-finish, at the PPV; which happens to be one of the 'big 4'.
The IWC would still bitch about it being a non-finish. lose,lose.
-metylerca
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Post by Nice Guy Cody on Jan 15, 2008 17:27:27 GMT -5
^ i love how the opinions of 4 people constitute the "IWC".
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King of Fighters
Unicron
Me and you, we get Superman, were from the streets
Posts: 3,418
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Post by King of Fighters on Jan 15, 2008 17:40:00 GMT -5
Found the whole spot meh.
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metylerca
King Koopa
Loves Him Some Backstreet Boys.
Don't be alarmed.
Posts: 12,479
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Post by metylerca on Jan 15, 2008 17:42:32 GMT -5
^ i love how the opinions of 4 people constitute the "IWC". I didn't mean just those 4 opinions, I mean it as in: if there's ever a match without a finish at a PPV... especially a World Title match, everyone shits all over it.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 15, 2008 17:43:27 GMT -5
^ i love how the opinions of 4 people constitute the "IWC". I didn't mean just those 4 opinions, I mean it as in: if there's ever a match without a finish at a PPV... especially a World Title match, everyone craps all over it. Enough. Both of you guys.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Jan 15, 2008 17:53:12 GMT -5
More fan-reactions at PW Torch....
"While I do agree that such a dangerous spot should have been saved for PPV, it does show why WWE's production and execution blows TNA out of the water. I can only imagine how obnoxious the TNA commentators would have been after that spot. Screaming and carrying on like someone shot the President. Or, it would have been used as a good reason to go to commercial a la Awesome Kong and Gail Kim last week. I have not purchased a WWE PPV in quite some time, but this episode has got me thinking hard about getting the Rumble." - Jay Gilkay of Milwaukee, Wisc.
"The hype for the Royal Rumble continued tonight in full strength. It's so refreshing to be excited about a PPV because of the main event and not some hotshot gimmick. The Hardy-Orton angle continues to be incredibly strong as the crowd is into both of these guys and their interactions. Vince should really consider extending this program to WrestleMania, because people want to see these two guys butt heads and continue doing so until there is a decisive win. The end angle was quite the spectacle and is a good reason to not have these guys wrestle next week. If they can drive it home with a couple of promos next Monday, it will cap one of the best PPV hypes WWE has done in a long time." - Greg Livengood of Chapel Hill, N.C.
"I try to give Raw the benefit of the doubt whenever possible, but this was not a strong show for me overall due to the lack of a good match. I was intrigued by the idea of Hardy facing Orton for the IC Title, though I figured it wouldn’t happen. The instant DQ felt like a cop-out at first, but the brawl and subsequent Swanton by Hardy was a major payoff. Great way of illustrating just how much these two hate each other. If they follow through with this storyline properly, Hardy and Orton will still be selling this finish next week and should be recovered just in time to lay it all down at the Rumble. The announcers going silent, even through the replays, was extremely effective. If Hardy and Orton can top this at the pay-per-view, it will be a can’t-miss show." - Jennifer Stevens of New York, N.Y.
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Post by Widow's Peak on Jan 15, 2008 17:59:15 GMT -5
I'm a little torn on this. While I loved the spot and thought that it was a legitimate "Oh My God!" moment, it didn't make a whole lot of sense for Jeff to take Orton out before winning the title. That being said, they've done an amazing job building this feud. I'm more interested in this than in the Royal Rumble match itself.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Jan 15, 2008 18:04:48 GMT -5
I'm a little torn on this. While I loved the spot and thought that it was a legitimate "Oh My God!" moment, it didn't make a whole lot of sense for Jeff to take Orton out before winning the title. That being said, they've done an amazing job building this feud. I'm more interested in this than in the Royal Rumble match itself. As someone said earlier, "blood is thicker than belts."
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 15, 2008 23:30:15 GMT -5
I really hope the people at TNA watched that Raw on Monday, I really do. For two reasons. The first, is you have two of your main feuds with people who really hate each other.
The JBL/Jericho angle is really good, with JBL talking to Jericho's kids (does he even have kids?), and like, I pictured that moment in my head with Jericho sitting at home watching and JBL saying that. That was an intense visual, with JBL really sticking it to him.
And the second, with Hardy and Orton, when that moment happened, the commentators went silent for the last 5 minutes. That's effect. That meant something. Epic moment I felt, and I agree with the guy who said they should build it to Wrestlemania. Maybe have a non-finish. Maybe have Jeff Hardy win the belt, but Orton's feet are on the ropes, and then Orton somehow gets DQ'd. Let it build and build, because this feud has been awesome.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 16, 2008 0:04:10 GMT -5
That is a good point about the TNA thing; I don't have the hate for Tenay/West some do ( they're ok I guess) but you do get the feeling they'd have been talking all over the moment after the spot etc instead of slowing it down and let the action speak for itself and build gravitas that way.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Jan 16, 2008 1:35:49 GMT -5
"This show felt like nothing happened but at the same time things are going so well. I believe this is the first time in a long time that the WWE is using a lot of time to really build and add life to the feuds heading into the Royal Rumble. I for one am enjoying it more and more every week. I am marking out like I did circa 1998. The Jeff Hardy vs. Randy Orton feud is WWE gold. The set up is beautiful, Jeff always one-upping the champion is great. The fans reactions are awesome. While I do not think Hardy is going to win the title (yet), I am enjoying this feud immensely. I am really looking forward to this PPV more than any in the past year (actually, since last year's Royal Rumble now that I think of it)." - Mark DiNatale of Los Angeles, Calif.
"There wasn't a whole lot of wrestling on this show, and what there was wasn't all that great. Still, the hype and build up for Orton-Hardy continues to be tremendous, and just watching Jeff Hardy break more and more through the proverbial glass ceiling each week is intriguing and entertaining in itself. The closing segment with Hardy making the big dive onto Orton was phenomenal. And it had resonance because it's not something WWE does very often and they sold it great by going silent after it happened (TNA take notice). If WWE and Vince were at all worried that they had lost their top babyface when John Cena went out injured, Hardy is more than filling in for him. Fans are really behind Hardy, guys and girls alike. Whatever WWE has planned for him, I hope they don't drop the ball, because right now Jeff Hardy could credibly headline WrestleMania. No matter where this goes though, I hope the Orton-Hardy feud extends at least until No Way Out. It's the best feud they've had on Raw since Triple H and Batista. Both guys have just been stellar in their roles." - Mat La Vore of West Palm Beach, Fla.
"The only thing that saved this show was Jeff Hardy. His promos have improved drastically since this push. He also was able to keep his promise of "taking Orton out." I've seen so many times somebody vow to take someone else out only to see their plan blow up in their face. There is one continuity error, though. Usually when someone gets flung off the stage, there's a huge explosion, maybe some piece of the set falls on top. This time we get nada and Orton lands on what appeared to be a dumpster (maybe used for the dismantling of the set later on?)." - Jon Leonard of St.Cloud, Minn.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Jan 16, 2008 1:40:19 GMT -5
"Raw hasn't even aired in Australia yet. I got home to read the results and I couldn't wait for tomorrow, so I went and watched it. This show was shocking for a few reasons. Jeff Hardy getting mic time: WWE is really getting behind his push now. And, of course, padding or not, Jeff is one crazy man. The V1 sign at the end was a great ending. Welcome to the main event, kid." - Matt Allen of Brisbane Australia
"This show only got a 4.0 because of the last match. Up until Hardy and Orton gave me a reason to care, this Raw was one of the worst shows I have seen in years." - Matt Guerra of Bayonne N.J.
"And the main event bump. Come on, previous reaxers. It's pro wrestling. It's a huge spectacle. Was it dangerous? Yeah! But I will bet anything that Hardy probably really wanted to take that bump and that it was his idea. And that wooden thing is totally padded. Have we gotten to the point where any sick bump, or any controversial move, for that matter, can be deconstructed and complained about? It was cool and Hardy is really fresh and over, and it makes the whole show seem interesting." - Russell Jaffe of Chicago, Ill.
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Post by thesunbeast on Jan 16, 2008 2:15:36 GMT -5
I don't care about the critics about this one. Don't get me wrong, I'm as big as an old school style as the next guy, I'm more of a fan of the Hogan type of style than the AJ Styles type of style, But I believe Jeff hardy is being built up perfectly for the Royal Rumble.
See, no matter what style you have, you can always add psychology to it and make it a great thing. there's nothing wrong with high flying, as long as you don't substitute if for something else that's important.
When you build someone up, You have to take what they are best at, and add some psychology behind it. If you're a power wrestler, when It's time for you to be in the main event, you have to show unbelievable super power, and add psychology with it. If you're a technical wrestler and It's time for you to be in the main event, you have to show unbelievable technical skill, mabe in an hour long match, and add psychology to it.
If you're a high flyer and It's time for you to be in the main event, you have to really glamourize the strengths, you have to show breathtaking high risks, and add psychology to it.
I am an optomistic person, and will usually give most guys the benefit of the doubt and say that they may have what it takes to be WWE champ some day, but I never thaught so about Jeff Hardy.
Man, was I dead ass wrong.
See, Jeff Hardy USED to be a guy that just did high flying moves but didn't have any psychology at all, as a matter of fact, during the Hardy boyz tag team, It was Matt that had all the Psychology, as stated by Edge on the TLC tape. However, Jeff Hardy has really come into his own, and the WWE is putting "the machine" behind Jeff Hardy. They are now glamourizing Jeff Hardy's strenths (fearless high flying) , but using them in a way that adds a story, but It is up to the WWE and Jeff Hardy to add psychology to it.
See, right now, Jeff Hardy is doing some type of extreme daredevil stunt every week, but they're making it look like that that's the thing to do in order to be better than the current WWE champ. But they aren't just doing that, thay've been adding story to it.
When I talk about the "new" Jeff Hardy, I'm talking about the guy that Has WWE backing him up fully with the "machine" as well as Jeff Hardy's new found (last few years) great psychology. When I talk about the old Jeff Hardy, I'm talking about the guy that didn't have the WWE's full confidence and the guy with no psychology.
The old Jeff Hardy would have just climbed to the top of the cage, In a perfect position to win, and would have just decided to jump off instead to "excite the crowd". He would have shown that all he has to contribute is high flying moves.
The new Jeff Hardy will have a cage match and show heart, determination, and have you beat that way, but In case It dosen't work, he'll climb the cage after learning that he can't go through the door, but If he gets trapped in a situation that all other midcarders and some main eventers fall victim to, he'll then bust out his "secret weapon", which is his daredevil high flying ability that everyone forgot about, and win that way. He's showing that he's not a high flying wrestler that's hit or miss, but He's a wrestler that can hang, but he has "something extra" which is his high flying ability.
His portrayal of having something extra, as oppossed to having something different, is what makes him seem better than all the rest. this is how you make a guy with talent in the main event. But there is one more thing, the wrestler himself has to be able to bring that portrayal to life with his own psychology. That is what Jeff Hardy has done.
Let me give an example: This past Monday.
The old Jeff Hardy would have menacingly climed all the way up to the top of the structure next to the titantron, giving away that he was going to jump. He would have done a pose, and jumped.
This time, Jeff started out with a look on his face as if to say "you know, I'm thinking about doing more". Then he says "yeah, I'm going to do more" and rips off his shirt. He then climbs up to the first section, and has a look on his face that says "you know, I've had enough already, I don't think I should do it" So he exits, but starts climbing higher. Then he has a look on his face that says "yep. this is it", he then looks back and forth at the crowd, and without hesitation whatsoever, he jumps.
This really glamourized Jeff's fearlessness, which makes him seem even more dangerous. the move was the culmination of Jeff saying that he was going to take Orton out, which gave Jeff's fearlessness power now aswell. His fearlessness now means something, because he used it to do something that he said he was going to do, rather than just do it for show.
Using this combination of WWE's psychology with Jeff's psychology is going to make Jeff a huge star. They should go this every week untill the Royal Rumble.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Jan 16, 2008 2:39:19 GMT -5
I don't care about the critics about this one. Don't get me wrong, I'm as big as an old school style as the next guy, I'm more of a fan of the Hogan type of style than the AJ Styles type of style, But I believe Jeff hardy is being built up perfectly for the Royal Rumble. See, no matter what style you have, you can always add psychology to it and make it a great thing. there's nothing wrong with high flying, as long as you don't substitute if for something else that's important. When you build someone up, You have to take what they are best at, and add some psychology behind it. If you're a power wrestler, when It's time for you to be in the main event, you have to show unbelievable super power, and add psychology with it. If you're a technical wrestler and It's time for you to be in the main event, you have to show unbelievable technical skill, mabe in an hour long match, and add psychology to it. If you're a high flyer and It's time for you to be in the main event, you have to really glamourize the strengths, you have to show breathtaking high risks, and add psychology to it. I am an optomistic person, and will usually give most guys the benefit of the doubt and say that they may have what it takes to be WWE champ some day, but I never thaught so about Jeff Hardy. Man, was I dead ass wrong. See, Jeff Hardy USED to be a guy that just did high flying moves but didn't have any psychology at all, as a matter of fact, during the Hardy boyz tag team, It was Matt that had all the Psychology, as stated by Edge on the TLC tape. However, Jeff Hardy has really come into his own, and the WWE is putting "the machine" behind Jeff Hardy. They are now glamourizing Jeff Hardy's strenths (fearless high flying) , but using them in a way that adds a story, but It is up to the WWE and Jeff Hardy to add psychology to it. See, right now, Jeff Hardy is doing some type of extreme daredevil stunt every week, but they're making it look like that that's the thing to do in order to be better than the current WWE champ. But they aren't just doing that, thay've been adding story to it. When I talk about the "new" Jeff Hardy, I'm talking about the guy that Has WWE backing him up fully with the "machine" as well as Jeff Hardy's new found (last few years) great psychology. When I talk about the old Jeff Hardy, I'm talking about the guy that didn't have the WWE's full confidence and the guy with no psychology. The old Jeff Hardy would have just climbed to the top of the cage, In a perfect position to win, and would have just decided to jump off instead to "excite the crowd". He would have shown that all he has to contribute is high flying moves. The new Jeff Hardy will have a cage match and show heart, determination, and have you beat that way, but In case It dosen't work, he'll climb the cage after learning that he can't go through the door, but If he gets trapped in a situation that all other midcarders and some main eventers fall victim to, he'll then bust out his "secret weapon", which is his daredevil high flying ability that everyone forgot about, and win that way. He's showing that he's not a high flying wrestler that's hit or miss, but He's a wrestler that can hang, but he has "something extra" which is his high flying ability. His portrayal of having something extra, as oppossed to having something different, is what makes him seem better than all the rest. this is how you make a guy with talent in the main event. But there is one more thing, the wrestler himself has to be able to bring that portrayal to life with his own psychology. That is what Jeff Hardy has done. Let me give an example: This past Monday. The old Jeff Hardy would have menacingly climed all the way up to the top of the structure next to the titantron, giving away that he was going to jump. He would have done a pose, and jumped. This time, Jeff started out with a look on his face as if to say "you know, I'm thinking about doing more". Then he says "yeah, I'm going to do more" and rips off his shirt. He then climbs up to the first section, and has a look on his face that says "you know, I've had enough already, I don't think I should do it" So he exits, but starts climbing higher. Then he has a look on his face that says "yep. this is it", he then looks back and forth at the crowd, and without hesitation whatsoever, he jumps. This really glamourized Jeff's fearlessness, which makes him seem even more dangerous. the move was the culmination of Jeff saying that he was going to take Orton out, which gave Jeff's fearlessness power now aswell. His fearlessness now means something, because he used it to do something that he said he was going to do, rather than just do it for show. Using this combination of WWE's psychology with Jeff's psychology is going to make Jeff a huge star. They should go this every week untill the Royal Rumble. You know, you might have a point there actually. Its amazing how this Orton/Hardy probably started out as a "filler-event" to not waste Trips for RR, and to build up Orton more as the unbeatable hated heel until....well, Trips wins at WM. A throw-away, since the Royal Rumble itself IS the selling point/main event. Now, looking at this board, I think many people are interested in this feud than they are with the Rumble itself. Just my observation of things.......
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Jan 16, 2008 8:33:41 GMT -5
Everybody I've talked to is far more interested in the Hardy/Orton match than the Rumble itself. Heck, I don't think that anybody I know (myself included) can name 5 participants in the rumble without having to look it up.
I don't even know any of the other matches on the card. And I don't care. This year's RR to me is all about Hardy/Orton, followed by the Rumble, then a whole bunch of matches that don't matter.
I fully expect Hardy's pop when he goes through that curtain to be the loudest we've heard for someone not named Austin or The Rock in 10 years. And if he wins that match, the pop will be absolutely deafening. I'd be willing to bet that it would rank in the top 10 of all-time loudest pops given all the momentum and fan support he's got right now.
If he can manage to carry his current level of momentum for another three months, then I agree with what someone said above.......he could very credibly headline wrestlemania 24.
EDIT: And yes, I agree with the belief that the original plan was for Hardy to be nothing more than fodder for Orton on his way to headlining WM24 with HHH. Basically, the match probably started at about the same level as Hardcore Holly/Lesnar from a few years back. I just hope Vince sees the writing on the wall and has changed the game plan to accomodate fan reaction. If this ends up being a throw-away match and Jeff is pushed back down to the mid card, I will immediately nominate that booking decision for the 2008 Gooker award.
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EvilMasterBetty, Esq.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bird...Birdie...birdie......Tiger...Tiger Tiger.....
R2C2 Reporting for duty
Posts: 17,355
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Post by EvilMasterBetty, Esq. on Jan 16, 2008 10:38:13 GMT -5
EDIT: And yes, I agree with the belief that the original plan was for Hardy to be nothing more than fodder for Orton on his way to headlining WM24 with HHH. Basically, the match probably started at about the same level as Hardcore Holly/Lesnar from a few years back. I just hope Vince sees the writing on the wall and has changed the game plan to accomodate fan reaction. If this ends up being a throw-away match and Jeff is pushed back down to the mid card, I will immediately nominate that booking decision for the 2008 Gooker award. If you want evidence, just look at Edge/Cena from before WM 22. That feud was HOT. Everyone wanted to see the two of them go at it. But they rushed it just so HHH could wrestle Cena. Sadly, the same thing will happen here. Orton will cheat to win/get DQed at Rumble, they will have a rematch on RAW where Orton goes over. HHH will win the Rumble, hence getting a title match at WM. I wish Hardy would be involved at WM in a title match. He's really stepped up his game and is cementing himself as a main eventer. Too bad WWE won't give him his shot.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Jan 16, 2008 11:01:58 GMT -5
Everybody I've talked to is far more interested in the Hardy/Orton match than the Rumble itself. Heck, I don't think that anybody I know (myself included) can name 5 participants in the rumble without having to look it up. I don't even know any of the other matches on the card. And I don't care. This year's RR to me is all about Hardy/Orton, followed by the Rumble, then a whole bunch of matches that don't matter. I fully expect Hardy's pop when he goes through that curtain to be the loudest we've heard for someone not named Austin or The Rock in 10 years. And if he wins that match, the pop will be absolutely deafening. I'd be willing to bet that it would rank in the top 10 of all-time loudest pops given all the momentum and fan support he's got right now. If he can manage to carry his current level of momentum for another three months, then I agree with what someone said above.......he could very credibly headline wrestlemania 24. EDIT: And yes, I agree with the belief that the original plan was for Hardy to be nothing more than fodder for Orton on his way to headlining WM24 with HHH. Basically, the match probably started at about the same level as Hardcore Holly/Lesnar from a few years back. I just hope Vince sees the writing on the wall and has changed the game plan to accomodate fan reaction. If this ends up being a throw-away match and Jeff is pushed back down to the mid card, I will immediately nominate that booking decision for the 2008 Gooker award. To be honest, I actually think WWE will try to "milk" Orton/Hardy for all its worth, which means there won't be a Hardy-title win at RR, nor a clean Orton pin. I can see "Bait & Switch" occuring or whatever...I just dont want another DQ finish or whatever nonsense that Orton has been booked to win by for the last 2 months.
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