Exactly WHAT are "dues" in wrestling?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

This is similar to a thread I posted in the (W)rest of wrestling section a while back, but I'd like to apply this to the WWE specifically now.

I hear accusations of wrestlers or other performers being "handed everything" often. I don't know what that means considering that wrestling is pre-determined and how nearly every title is handed to the wrestlers.

Not to mention:
- the territory system is mainly extinct and wrestling schools seem to be the order of the day
- the mentality of every promoter ever is that they'll give the belt/top dog status to whoever can net the most gate or push the most swag, and rewards for loyalty have always been few and far between
-Nepotism isn't new (see: Greg Gagne, David Sammartino)

Why are fans still throwing the "he/she didn't earn it" card around, and what is the exact standard for toiling in a fake sport nowadays? Five years? Six? Eight?

I apologize if I'm coming across too angry, but this has been weighing on my mind.

[Marvelously Mediocre]

what CM Punk paid while jobbing to Bob Holly

[Zutroy]

Jun 10, 2008 13:12:19 GMT -5 Marvelously Mediocre said:

what CM Punk paid while jobbing to Bob Holly

And Randy Orton, didn't he have to wrestle Holly for like 8 weeks straight before he debuted on Raw. I heard that in some guys shoot interview.

[wrestlecrapcrap]

Jun 10, 2008 13:22:06 GMT -5 Zutroy said:

Jun 10, 2008 13:12:19 GMT -5 Marvelously Mediocre said:

what CM Punk paid while jobbing to Bob Holly

And Randy Orton, didn't he have to wrestle Holly for like 8 weeks straight before he debuted on Raw. I heard that in some guys shoot interview.

I think he was talking about Orton being a man and taking all the stiff chops, while someone else kept complainin and accusing Holly of being a bully. Can't remember who the complainer was though.

[lildude8218]

They just have a library in every locker room.

[Snowman]

Goldberg, Barry Horrowitz...

[Bo Rida]

I posted this earlier in the year when Jeff was getting a mega push, pretty much answers the question.

Wrestling should be a unique form of entertainment where the live crowds determine who should be the start of the show.

To do this the crowd needs a connection to the wrestlers which you can only get if they offer something unique, when everybody is using generic writer monkey promos and a formulated match style it's harder for the fans to feel investment in them so the emotional bond is never formed.
This is particularly true when unpopular wrestlers are forced down peoples throats at the expense of the fan favorites who always receive a big reaction.

This is an even bigger problem when everything just clicks into place so it appears it’s a certain wresters time to win the title and it just doesn’t happen, the biggest examples I can think of is Christian before he got drafted to Smackdown and Samoa Joe in TNA.

You also used to see wrestlers work for years to get to the top of the profession, now too many are groomed for the top.
When Foley of Eddie won their first titles the reactions were huge, nearly everybody in the arenas were cheering as they felt genuinely happy that a person who has been entertaining them for years had finally made it to the top.

However when somebody like Lashley wins the "big one" it doesn't cause those same feelings, this is an even bigger problem due to having 3 main titles.
This has been made even worse due to the WWE preferring long face champion reigns rather than focusing on "the chase".

I believe the recent swell of support for Jeff Hardy is mainly due to him being somebody who has built a relationship with the fans over many years, we've seen him go from a jobber, to the TLC matches, to becoming a mid-card singles champion, followed by him nearly throwing it all away by becoming a sloppy shadow of his former self to finally turning it around to being the main eventer he is today.

If you look at the majority of your favorite wrestlers they are likely to have followed a similar path.

In the past I always felt WCW was devoid of that spark when wrestling rises above itself to become something truely special, the original ECW was the opposite.

Even today I can only think of a handful of moments that TNA has manged that response and that's mainly been when debuts of former WWE wrestlers.

A much as I enjoy the technical classics of ROH, the spotfests in TNA or the sports entertainment fun of the WWE I really feel that the emotion is lacking from todays product.
Without it wrestling feels more like a sketch show rather than giving that unique feeling only wrestling can deliver.

[Gillberg: 0-175]

You have to poop in a dufflebag and mess with someone's rental car.

That's what I've gathered from years of being a wrestling fan

[Big Daddy Bad Booking]

I guess its what you do in order to earn your spot in a company (minus a cat bath or a poppy duffel bag).

[Cap'n Crud]

Yeah it's funny everybody talks about dues in everything not just wrestling yet I don't see a collection plate anywhere. Please tell me where this giant coffer is that I put my money in. It seems to me all this dues talk is mostly a way to scare people from jumping at an opportunity by saying you don't deserve it yet. Bull if you think you're ready for the opportunity you take it. The only thing "paying your dues" will guarantee is that you'll be 70 years old and still flipping hamburgers at Burger King while some 19 year old is writing your paycheck.

[SickFreak: Dusty Rhodes]

Jun 10, 2008 13:22:06 GMT -5 Zutroy said:

Jun 10, 2008 13:12:19 GMT -5 Marvelously Mediocre said:

what CM Punk paid while jobbing to Bob Holly

And Randy Orton, didn't he have to wrestle Holly for like 8 weeks straight before he debuted on Raw. I heard that in some guys shoot interview.

I think it was Maven's, but I might be wrong.

I always kinda feel sorry for jobbers or rookies facing Hardcore Holly, but they need to pay teh duez.

[Cyno]

Exactly WHAT are "dues" in wrestling?

JBL's object of choice to violate you with?

[KLRA]

The concept of "dues" is mainly you go through wrestling school, you are the b**** boy of every promotion you work for, go through hell on the indies, and such and such until you get noticed by someone. Some guys rise up faster because of God-given ability and just having 'it.'

The people that are mainly talked about "not earning it" are those that are given a contract by the WWE straight out, spend like four to five months in development and then within three months of being moved up to the main show are being pushed into the main event.

[BitterAF]

I think if the fans are vocal when youre in the ring or when your name is mentioned says you did a good job at being a heel/baby face and made your character work. It shouldn't be spending X amount of time in the business.

If Wrestler A came in the WWE in 2000 and doesn't get over to well, but is a pretty good worker and Wrestler B comes in at the beginning of 2005 and is a great worker and is getting over, why should wreslter B have to spend all this time "paying dues". Obviously B knows what he's doing so wrestler A shouldn't smurf him up just because B hasn't been around as long as A (who wasn't good enough to being a world champ and main eventer)

Or maybe you have to getting your bag filled with crap.

[Deleted]

The whole idea of paying your dues is stupid. It's all about who can draw the most money.

The problem with WWE is most the guys they push. Both haven't paid their dues and can't draw money.

[Dave at the Movies]

Well if you think about it it is much much harder to make it in wrestling these days. Sure people in WWE get rich off of it and make more money than the territory generation could ever imagine but back then you could actually live off of wrestling. Anyone who was in wrestling back in the 60s and 70s usually did not have a second job like almost every single indy wrestler today.

[bitteroldman]

"Paying your dues" shows your level of commitment to the business. Someone who's spent the early part of their career really struggling, driving all night to make a show where the payout is little more than gas money is less likely to take their ball and go home when the promoter decides to take the belt off them or books them to return the jobs to the guys who put them over.

Brock Lesnar is the perfect example of a guy who never had to struggle, never "paid his dues" and twice has quit on companies when things didn't go the way he wanted.

[Andrew is Good]

Paying your dues is important in the business for a number of reasons.

Firstly, if a guy comes in who is green, and and is the guy getting the push, he should be respectful to those who were in the locker room before him. Be it, the one who drives the car to the next town, getting with a guy like Hardcore Holly to test you, etc.

The reason that guy should be respectful is this. If this great talent who's new comes in, and has nobody to beat to get better, what happens? He goes no where. In wrestling, nobody gets over by themselves. It's impossible. People get you over and make you. Not only that, but you're coming into a family. It's going to be tough for people to just accept you into that family, because you're new. They don't know you, they don't know how you may treat them, their materials, etc. And in wrestling, you're on the road so much, so this new person is going to be in your family, and if they are disrespectful or an asshole, it's important to get rid of them because it may be a growing problem in the locker room. All they have is each other.

People need to appreciate the other wrestlers, and realize that if it wasn't for a lot of these guys, there may not be a business for them to enjoy and make money in. So if you take all these guys out of the equation, and it's just you, you're a nobody.

And back to people testing you for being disrespectful. Now granted, some guys go a little overboard. Chris Masters said in his shoot he didn't go up and introduce himself to Hardcore Holly simply because he thought he was in a conversation with a group, didn't see him, and didn't want to disturb him. But, Holly took it the wrong way. But again, sometimes people in the business will be disrespectful, and Holly wants to set people straight quickly.

You sometimes get ribbed or f***ed with starting off for a very good reason. They try to crack you. Back in the day, wrestlers had to risk their livelyhood in order to train you, because if that guy sucked, killed a town, etc, then that person wouldn't get booked either. So if the guy cracks after the ribbing, f***ing with, and general pressure from on the road, then he doesn't waste the time of the company he's with, and all the people that had to be thrown in front of him to get him over.

So if he's not ribbed or f***ed with, he may just crack from the road, and crack easier because he didn't have to deal with the ribbing when he first got in. And he goes, quits, and wants to go play football. Forcing injured wrestlers to stay longer to help the company.

[KLRA]

Jun 10, 2008 21:46:30 GMT -5 Andrew is Good said:

Paying your dues is important in the business for a number of reasons.

Firstly, if a guy comes in who is green, and and is the guy getting the push, he should be respectful to those who were in the locker room before him. Be it, the one who drives the car to the next town, getting with a guy like Hardcore Holly to test you, etc.

The reason that guy should be respectful is this. If this great talent who's new comes in, and has nobody to beat to get better, what happens? He goes no where. In wrestling, nobody gets over by themselves. It's impossible. People get you over and make you. Not only that, but you're coming into a family. It's going to be tough for people to just accept you into that family, because you're new. They don't know you, they don't know how you may treat them, their materials, etc. And in wrestling, you're on the road so much, so this new person is going to be in your family, and if they are disrespectful or an asshole, it's important to get rid of them because it may be a growing problem in the locker room. All they have is each other.

People need to appreciate the other wrestlers, and realize that if it wasn't for a lot of these guys, there may not be a business for them to enjoy and make money in. So if you take all these guys out of the equation, and it's just you, you're a nobody.

And back to people testing you for being disrespectful. Now granted, some guys go a little overboard. Chris Masters said in his shoot he didn't go up and introduce himself to Hardcore Holly simply because he thought he was in a conversation with a group, didn't see him, and didn't want to disturb him. But, Holly took it the wrong way. But again, sometimes people in the business will be disrespectful, and Holly wants to set people straight quickly.

You sometimes get ribbed or smurfed with starting off for a very good reason. They try to crack you. Back in the day, wrestlers had to risk their livelyhood in order to train you, because if that guy sucked, killed a town, etc, then that person wouldn't get booked either. So if the guy cracks after the ribbing, smurfing with, and general pressure from on the road, then he doesn't waste the time of the company he's with, and all the people that had to be thrown in front of him to get him over.

So if he's not ribbed or smurfed with, he may just crack from the road, and crack easier because he didn't have to deal with the ribbing when he first got in. And he goes, quits, and wants to go play football. Forcing injured wrestlers to stay longer to help the company.

Pretty much this.

Look, as a wrestler that has been trying to 'make it' for four years now, will I feel bad if someone who starts wrestling tomorrow, and within six months shows that he 'has it' and that he's ready for the 'big show'? Of course not.

The big part about 'paying your dues' is making sure that you have a commitment to the buisness. Because if the guy on top is drawing a lot of people, it looks better on your paycheck. You don't want the guy on top to be ungreatful and decide to up and leave one day.

Look at somebody like Randy Orton. Sure he had a piss poor attitude for a while, but he never shied away from working hard, taking part in brutal matches, and such and such. Now (before his injury) he was at the top of the card and is respected to a certain degree.

John Cena is someone you can never say that he didn't pay his dues. He started out in wrestling school the same as everyone else, and rose up the ranks until he found his stride and became the top drawing guy in the industry today. There have been many oppurtunities over the past couple years where Cena could have just thrown in the towel on wrestling, but he didn't.

I think people blow 'paying your dues' way out of proportion for how 'heavy' it is. It's just like with any job, you have to prove that you want it.

[SBYM]

Basically, it means that if you like a wrestler and think he's a good worker based on his/her indie stuff, they've paid their dues and deserve a title shot almost immediately after signing with WWE. Whereas, if you don't like a wrestler, then they got their job through some sort of politics, or because Vince McMahon loves talentless hosses and generic blonde bimbos and thus never paid dues and should be jobbed out once then released.