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Post by Red 'n' Black Reggie on Jun 11, 2008 6:54:53 GMT -5
I posted this earlier in the year when Jeff was getting a mega push, pretty much answers the question. Wrestling should be a unique form of entertainment where the live crowds determine who should be the start of the show. To do this the crowd needs a connection to the wrestlers which you can only get if they offer something unique, when everybody is using generic writer monkey promos and a formulated match style it's harder for the fans to feel investment in them so the emotional bond is never formed. This is particularly true when unpopular wrestlers are forced down peoples throats at the expense of the fan favorites who always receive a big reaction. This is an even bigger problem when everything just clicks into place so it appears it’s a certain wresters time to win the title and it just doesn’t happen, the biggest examples I can think of is Christian before he got drafted to Smackdown and Samoa Joe in TNA. You also used to see wrestlers work for years to get to the top of the profession, now too many are groomed for the top. When Foley of Eddie won their first titles the reactions were huge, nearly everybody in the arenas were cheering as they felt genuinely happy that a person who has been entertaining them for years had finally made it to the top. However when somebody like Lashley wins the "big one" it doesn't cause those same feelings, this is an even bigger problem due to having 3 main titles. This has been made even worse due to the WWE preferring long face champion reigns rather than focusing on "the chase". I believe the recent swell of support for Jeff Hardy is mainly due to him being somebody who has built a relationship with the fans over many years, we've seen him go from a jobber, to the TLC matches, to becoming a mid-card singles champion, followed by him nearly throwing it all away by becoming a sloppy shadow of his former self to finally turning it around to being the main eventer he is today. If you look at the majority of your favorite wrestlers they are likely to have followed a similar path. In the past I always felt WCW was devoid of that spark when wrestling rises above itself to become something truely special, the original ECW was the opposite. Even today I can only think of a handful of moments that TNA has manged that response and that's mainly been when debuts of former WWE wrestlers. A much as I enjoy the technical classics of ROH, the spotfests in TNA or the sports entertainment fun of the WWE I really feel that the emotion is lacking from todays product. Without it wrestling feels more like a sketch show rather than giving that unique feeling only wrestling can deliver. that more or less covers it. in order to really get behind someone, i personally like to have seen them evolve over time. with people who've slowly gained momentum throughout their careers, the fans feel a greater conection with them, as if they're someone you actually know. with jeff hardy for example, we've seen him go through highs and lows, we've seen him in every situation imaginable. fans of a certain age grew up with jeff. as he's matured, so have the fans, so we feel as if jeff is one of our friends almost, so if/when he wins the big belt, we'll feel for him because we've seen the road he's taken to get there. jeff's probably a bad example because he's one of those love him/ hate him people, but the point still stands. and i also agree with the idea that people who've "paid their dues" are more reliable. take two examples in CM Punk and brock lesnar. lesnar didn't particularly care about wrestling. he had a natural gift for it, and seemed to enjoy it, but because he was sent straight from high school to OVW, to WWE, to the main event, he hadn't ever been tested on whether or not he REALLY wanted a wrestling career, so, as good as he was, when he was put in the main event, he changed his mind and went off to try something else. now take punk. he hasn't long arrived at WWE, but you know that if he gets passed the ball, he won't drop it, because he's wrestled his heart out in tiny gym halls in central nowhere, stayed in hotels where the beds had hepatitis C as a built in feature, he's wrestled thorugh injuries and still persisted, because he loves wrestling, and wouldn't give it up for the world. i know i'm biased because i think punk rocks, but this is still one of the reasons WWE should focus more on hiring indy wrestlers who grew up following wrestling, rather than pro athletes who have been told "you'd be good for wrestling", because you know that rather than not really caring either way, you put a guy who's spent years trying to get there in the main event and he'll give it 100%. the same goes for the hiring of ex-models over actual female wrestlers.
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Post by Loki on Jun 11, 2008 7:00:50 GMT -5
It's just a glorified Fraternity initiation...
A wrestler is supposed to have spent years wrestling in dirty gyms in the middle of nowhere, driving 500miles a day in the snow/heat just to make it to the next show against a below average veteran, to "earn" the respect of his older coworkers.
To me, that's bullcrap and a poor excuse to pull pranks and random acts ov violence/offense on newcomers.
Wrestling is a business where if you're talented and have "it", you'll be the Top Guy in a matter of months. And if you don't, all the hard work of this world won't get you beyond a certain point.
I can't honestly find a good reason for stiffing a kid to death or giving him an hard time backstage just because he's "new". It won't teach him a thing, and it's not gonna make him better or worse, performance-wise.
//Edit:
about Lesnar & co... having paid dues =/= being respectful and committed and not being an egotistical jackass.. I think Shawn paid his dues, but that didn't prevent him from losing his smile...
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KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
Posts: 7,591
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Post by KLRA on Jun 11, 2008 8:38:50 GMT -5
Wrestling is a business where if you're talented and have "it", you'll be the Top Guy in a matter of months. And if you don't, all the hard work of this world won't get you beyond a certain point. I can't honestly find a good reason for stiffing a kid to death or giving him an hard time backstage just because he's "new". It won't teach him a thing, and it's not gonna make him better or worse, performance-wise. Well one of the ways that you are taught very quickly in wrestling if you're getting things right is how stiff your partner starts working with you. If he starts really laying into you, you know you're making mistakes. Plus it's just like any other job I've ever had. The new guy is always treated like crap until he proves himself. I agree with the sentiment that if you're good, you're going to make it no matter what, and probably quickly. Only people that think they never got 'their shot' will be bitter about someone with natural talents progressing amazingly fast. It's all a matter of treating everyone with respect. That's basically what dues teaches you, to treat the buisness and workers with respect. Plus no matter how long you've been in the buisness, you're going to get ribbed. It's just a fact of life.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 11, 2008 17:47:33 GMT -5
That's an excellent point, however, I would argue that such a problem could be avoided with good, solid booking that plays to the new guys' strengths.
Consider December 2004, when Austin Aries, who had only been in ROH for a little more than half a year, was the one to end Samoa Joe's near-two year title run. The fans liked Aries' ring style, he had a good look, etc., but 7-9 months isn't exactly a lifetime.
Nevertheless, thanks to strong booking, the second Aries hit the 450 splash on Joe and the ref started counting, the entire building sounded like it was going to explode from the crowd noise. In an instant, Aries became a figurehead for the company, despite not having been there very long.
Now, granted, it also worked because Aries is a very, very good worker, and a pretty damned charismatic talker (though he won the belt even before he was THAT good with the mic). But the booking was very smart, very quick thinking, and the fans bought into it.
That being said, I do agree with you that, in a setting like WWE, where you're liable to see some of the same wrestlers on TV for nearly a full decade at a time, building a relationship with the audience CAN be a beneficial thing for garnering reactions for the "big win". Obviously, people don't tend to stick around ROH for 10 years, at least not yet (especially considering, well, the company's six years old).
As for the question of "dues", the answer is somewhere in the middle. If a guy truly has the ability, in the ring, on the mic, with the crowd, etc., then the guy deserves to rise to the top.
That being said, if you toss a guy to the top of the card when he's still basically a kid, don't be too shocked when he suddenly lets it go to his head. That's where "due paying" comes in; it humbles you (hopefully not Sheik-style) to an extent, and teaches you to cherish whatever time you get in the sun, and not behave as if you'll be there forever. It makes you smarter, it makes you easier to work with.
However, there's a fine line between having a guy pay his dues, and having a guy basically get brutalized. Ribbing happens, but it's when you start the "frat initiation" style crap that you really have to draw a line. Having the rookie carry your bags? Eh, ball players do that, too. But taking a guy and having him get the ever loving bejesus knocked out of him as a way of saying "WELCOME TO THE SHOW!"? ...Not so much.
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Post by T.J. "the Crippler" Stevens on Jun 11, 2008 19:19:32 GMT -5
They're something that Triple H and Kevin Nash invented a word for to protect their spots.
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Post by RoloSolo IV on Jun 11, 2008 22:19:52 GMT -5
Plus no matter how long you've been in the buisness, you're going to get ribbed. It's just a fact of life. Yeah, Im sure some of the young guys let alone some of the 10 year plus guys are going to pull an rib on The Undertaker in 2008. Lets see how long they last in the company.
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Post by corndog on Jun 11, 2008 22:57:00 GMT -5
"Paying your dues" shows your level of commitment to the business. Someone who's spent the early part of their career really struggling, driving all night to make a show where the payout is little more than gas money is less likely to take their ball and go home when the promoter decides to take the belt off them or books them to return the jobs to the guys who put them over. Brock Lesnar is the perfect example of a guy who never had to struggle, never "paid his dues" and twice has quit on companies when things didn't go the way he wanted. I can add two more to that list, the Ultimate Warrior and Goldberg. I can understand a wrestler skipping the struggle if they get Hulk Hogan ovations. Also sometimes promoters have them go undefeated like Goldberg so the wrestler can become that over. However I think the WWE has wrestlers that skipped the struggle, are talented, but don't deserve it more than other wrestlers. Look at Randy Orton he is a great heel, but does he deserve to be pushed over Chris Jericho or Christain? How many years did Benoit, and Guerrero have to wait to become champs? Bret Hart spent 8 years in the WWF before becoming champ and the fans loved it because they watched him go from jobber to champ, same with Edge I think it took him about the same amount of time. I am not saying everyone that is in the company for ten years deserves the belt, but if they are talented and work their butts off for ten years they deserve it more than a guy who just got theirs because their daddy wrestled Hulk Hogan. I definitely think Jeff Hardy deserves a belt much more than Batista or John Cena. Heck I think Hardy is more popular than Cena anyways despite what most of you say. Almost every time I see Cena only a handful of fans actually stand and a quarter or more of the fans are booing him, how is he the top draw? His ovations are extremely weak for what is supposed to be a top draw.
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Post by Red 'n' Black Reggie on Jun 12, 2008 6:11:55 GMT -5
dues in wrestling? well there's colt cabana, bill goldberg...
yeah, that joke doesn't work with the american pronunciation of "dues"
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Post by bigdaddyfive on Jun 12, 2008 6:40:36 GMT -5
Wrestling is a business where if you're talented and have "it", you'll be the Top Guy in a matter of months. And if you don't, all the hard work of this world won't get you beyond a certain point. I can't honestly find a good reason for stiffing a kid to death or giving him an hard time backstage just because he's "new". It won't teach him a thing, and it's not gonna make him better or worse, performance-wise. Well one of the ways that you are taught very quickly in wrestling if you're getting things right is how stiff your partner starts working with you. If he starts really laying into you, you know you're making mistakes. With regards to being "stiff" I learnt, as a wrestler, that it all depends on who you're facing and how stiff you and they are - i.e. you stiff him, he stiffs you back. We got told it wasn't really an issue in terms that if someone is being rather stiff, don't take it too personally. Often some of the nicest, most helpful people in the industry I've worked with are remarkably stiff. Just the way they are and they expect it back too. Conversely, I found that when I first started, it was the smaller, high flying wrestlers who had problems with people paying their "dues". Several wouldn't just not entertain the idea of helping out a rookie and were extremely critical of any input I had to offer. If anything, I found acting like a model employee to be a good way to get by in this business - i.e. ask questions, be punctual, get a good night's rest before "work" - were respected more as traits as they're all something we can relate to.
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Post by Loki on Jun 12, 2008 6:50:28 GMT -5
I can add two more to that list, the Ultimate Warrior and Goldberg. I can understand a wrestler skipping the struggle if they get Hulk Hogan ovations. Also sometimes promoters have them go undefeated like Goldberg so the wrestler can become that over. However I think the WWE has wrestlers that skipped the struggle, are talented, but don't deserve it more than other wrestlers. Look at Randy Orton he is a great heel, but does he deserve to be pushed over Chris Jericho or Christain? How many years did Benoit, and Guerrero have to wait to become champs? Bret Hart spent 8 years in the WWF before becoming champ and the fans loved it because they watched him go from jobber to champ, same with Edge I think it took him about the same amount of time. I am not saying everyone that is in the company for ten years deserves the belt, but if they are talented and work their butts off for ten years they deserve it more than a guy who just got theirs because their daddy wrestled Hulk Hogan. I definitely think Jeff Hardy deserves a belt much more than Batista or John Cena. Heck I think Hardy is more popular than Cena anyways despite what most of you say. Almost every time I see Cena only a handful of fans actually stand and a quarter or more of the fans are booing him, how is he the top draw? His ovations are extremely weak for what is supposed to be a top draw. Saying Cena isn't getting "main event" ovations doesn't even need a comment... I kinda agree it's important having learnt how to deal with pressure, how to work a good match, be it a main event at MSG or a dark match in Dullsville... BUT just because a wrestler has been a reliable worker, consistently over (and I mean Koko B. Ware over, not Hulk Hogan over) and he has been in the company for a long time, DOESN'T MEAN he should get a title or should get pushed ahead of a more over and more charismatic newcomer. Lesnar didn't pay many dues, and it got to his head, but the same goes for Hogan... and what about Michaels and Hart? Both men spent years in the undercard, but they eventually developed huge egos anyway once they made it to the top.. Charisma is the ONLY criterium that should be taken into account to push a wrestler.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 12, 2008 14:34:51 GMT -5
Bottom line is $$$. "Dues" don't mean squat to the promoter, and sooner or later, the veterans get wise that this up and coming kid who is "paying his dues" is a serious threat to their job stability, and try to screw the kid out. Very few genuine people, like Haku, value it, and try to nurture the young talent. See: ----------- On a related note - for stars like Goldberg, Warrior etc... The Ultimate Warrior said that the veterans (Buddy Rose, Muraco, Harley Race) were very much against him, during his first and most successful stint in the WWF. They said the tassels and the paint "won't work", he was "disrespectful to the business and its legacy", and he needed to pay his "dues". Unfortunately for them, McMahon couldn't care less, as he saw his new cashcow. To Warrior, these men were seeing a threat to their spots and trying to cover their own backs by discouraging him and telling tales of legacy etc. Warrior went on to be one of the most successful stars of the 80s, Rose et al, faded into obscurity. Warrior did what would have made jesse Ventura proud, who advised a young Chris Jericho that the only thing that matters in the wrestling business is how much you have saved...dues, legacy, respect won't look after you when you are done with it, or are a broken has-been.
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Post by corndog on Jun 12, 2008 18:51:21 GMT -5
Well I still stand by what I said about Cena, however he is the most marketable character in the WWE right now and that is something Vince has really looked at since he made all of that money with Hogan and Austin's merchandise. As far as Bret and Micheals getting egos, of course they did they were two of the best. But they had some of the greatest matches of all time, and both of them would put people over when they had to. Warrior was a terrible wrestler and yes he had a great run from 88-92 where Vince MADE him the most popular wrestler, but he isn't willing to put people over these days, that is selfish especially for what the business did for him. A wrestler that pays his dues understands the business more, they appreciate when they get to the top more, and learn to respect veterans that did the same. I don't like HHH and HBK, but one good thing they did was give Benoit a title, something alot of other people wouldn't do, but because they understood what Benoit went through after 20 years in the business they knew he earned it. So are you going to say Benoit never deserved the title because he didn't have charisma? The reason people like me get mad about this is because wrestlers like Ted Dibiase, Scott Hall and heck even Piper who all had ton of charisma(just as much as Cena/Batista if not more) and were great wreslters for 20+ years and never got the belt, but some roided up freak like Batista or Cena get the belt in less than 5 years of being in the business. I can understand it if they were over like Hogan and the Rock, but they are not even close. In a situation where you don't have a real standout crowd favorite you should give the belt to the most deserving wrestler. Why do you think Bret Hart was champ in the 90s? They tried to make Lex Luger the next Hogan, but it didn't work, so they went with the wrestler that deserved the belt. The fact is you are right about charisma, Hogan, Warrior, and Austin were the right choices and needed to be champions when they were. I also will not disagree that Cena is one of the most popular wrestlers in the WWE, but does he deserve the belt over say, Chris Jericho?
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Post by RoloSolo IV on Jun 12, 2008 21:05:43 GMT -5
Well I still stand by what I said about Cena, however he is the most marketable character in the WWE right now and that is something Vince has really looked at since he made all of that money with Hogan and Austin's merchandise. As far as Bret and Micheals getting egos, of course they did they were two of the best. But they had some of the greatest matches of all time, and both of them would put people over when they had to. Warrior was a terrible wrestler and yes he had a great run from 88-92 where Vince MADE him the most popular wrestler, but he isn't willing to put people over these days, that is selfish especially for what the business did for him. A wrestler that pays his dues understands the business more, they appreciate when they get to the top more, and learn to respect veterans that did the same. I don't like HHH and HBK, but one good thing they did was give Benoit a title, something alot of other people wouldn't do, but because they understood what Benoit went through after 20 years in the business they knew he earned it. So are you going to say Benoit never deserved the title because he didn't have charisma? The reason people like me get mad about this is because wrestlers like Ted Dibiase, Scott Hall and heck even Piper who all had ton of charisma(just as much as Cena/Batista if not more) and were great wreslters for 20+ years and never got the belt, but some roided up freak like Batista or Cena get the belt in less than 5 years of being in the business. I can understand it if they were over like Hogan and the Rock, but they are not even close. In a situation where you don't have a real standout crowd favorite you should give the belt to the most deserving wrestler. Why do you think Bret Hart was champ in the 90s? They tried to make Lex Luger the next Hogan, but it didn't work, so they went with the wrestler that deserved the belt. The fact is you are right about charisma, Hogan, Warrior, and Austin were the right choices and needed to be champions when they were. I also will not disagree that Cena is one of the most popular wrestlers in the WWE, but does he deserve the belt over say, Chris Jericho? Bret and Shawn had egos themselves and both of them sometimes wouldnt put over other people. No one else could had pulled off the Ultimate Warrior gimmick and The Warrior had started to come on its own BEFORE the WWF. Warrior paid his "dues" and I respect him for not being a slave to the business. He joined the WWF in 1987 and 3 years later was on top. Benoit won the title in 2004, but looking back on his run, he wasnt even treated like an main eventer for the most part. Dibiase and Hall were great workers, but all Piper had was the mic work. Name atleast 3 matches outside of Bret/Piper that Piper was great at producing Ring Work. I sure cant think of any. And Piper had a major ego, as the guy wouldnt be allowed to get pinned. And it could be argued that Bret and Shawn were given top runs only cause Vince wanted the smaller guys to run the company since the government was after him and the steroid thing.
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Post by Impact Zone's #1 DUMMY...YEAH on Jun 12, 2008 22:22:06 GMT -5
I wonder if Kurt Angle had to pay any "dues" when he first came to WWE? Or did he have the respect of having been one hell of an amateur wrestler?
Also, how is it that guys have to be tested against folks like Hardcore Holly, Undertaker, and the Acolytes, the ones that guys usually have to pay their dues by being in the ring against?
I'd read somewhere(this board maybe?) that when the Dudleys first came to the WWE, their first TV match was against the APA, simply to prove that they weren't going to be like Public Enemy, who'd come in with the wrong attitude. Upon wrestling that match and proving they weren't like TPE, they were thus accepted.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Jun 13, 2008 2:28:28 GMT -5
I have a simple answer to your question
Dues- It's what you pay
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Jay Peas 42
El Dandy
Totally flips out ALL the time.
Is looking forward to a Nation of Domination Kwannza Special.
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Jun 13, 2008 9:24:25 GMT -5
It basically means that given wrestler has endured all the garbage that comes with Wrestling School, the Indies, Jobbing out, and everything else that comes before getting a chance at the real money and fame.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Jun 13, 2008 10:22:07 GMT -5
I can add two more to that list, the Ultimate Warrior and Goldberg. I can understand a wrestler skipping the struggle if they get Hulk Hogan ovations. Also sometimes promoters have them go undefeated like Goldberg so the wrestler can become that over. However I think the WWE has wrestlers that skipped the struggle, are talented, but don't deserve it more than other wrestlers. Look at Randy Orton he is a great heel, but does he deserve to be pushed over Chris Jericho or Christain? How many years did Benoit, and Guerrero have to wait to become champs? Bret Hart spent 8 years in the WWF before becoming champ and the fans loved it because they watched him go from jobber to champ, same with Edge I think it took him about the same amount of time. I am not saying everyone that is in the company for ten years deserves the belt, but if they are talented and work their butts off for ten years they deserve it more than a guy who just got theirs because their daddy wrestled Hulk Hogan. I definitely think Jeff Hardy deserves a belt much more than Batista or John Cena. Heck I think Hardy is more popular than Cena anyways despite what most of you say. Almost every time I see Cena only a handful of fans actually stand and a quarter or more of the fans are booing him, how is he the top draw? His ovations are extremely weak for what is supposed to be a top draw. Saying Cena isn't getting "main event" ovations doesn't even need a comment... I kinda agree it's important having learnt how to deal with pressure, how to work a good match, be it a main event at MSG or a dark match in Dullsville... BUT just because a wrestler has been a reliable worker, consistently over (and I mean Koko B. Ware over, not Hulk Hogan over) and he has been in the company for a long time, DOESN'T MEAN he should get a title or should get pushed ahead of a more over and more charismatic newcomer. Lesnar didn't pay many dues, and it got to his head, but the same goes for Hogan... and what about Michaels and Hart? Both men spent years in the undercard, but they eventually developed huge egos anyway once they made it to the top.. Charisma is the ONLY criterium that should be taken into account to push a wrestler. I disagree about Hogan not paying dues, the guy had his leg broken in training by Hiro Matsuda just to see if he would come back and he did, most guys would probably go home crying and wouldn't even think of wrestling again. He put in many years and had experience in various promotions in the US and Japan. Is it because he wasn't sleeping in the back of some beat up truck every night like some other guys were? Just trying to understand what these "dues" are exactly that people talk about.
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