OK - explain Kane and The Undertaker.

[The Curmudgeon]

Put yourself in this scenario. A madman kidnaps you and ties you to a chair. He puts a gun to your head and talks to you about wrestling. In particular - The Undertaker and Kane.

Now, he DEMANDS a good answer, or he'll kill you, of just what the characters of Kane and Taker are supposed to be.

Taker is able to rise up from all kinds of punishment. He can make lightning come from the ceiling and fire come from the ground. Is Undertaker a zombie? A demon? If so - why was his normal, human wife on TV? What is the deal?

Then there's Kane. He seems to have similar powers to Taker, in that he can sit up from being hurt, and can make fire come out of the ring. He appeared in a mask but his face is fine. He spoke with a voicebox but his voice is fine. If Taker is a zombie that could (kind of) explain some of his powers - but what the hell is Kane supposed to be?

His finger is on the trigger. Answer the questions.

[Mayhem]

I'd say, "Kill me, already." There is no logic behind this. Just typical WWE continuity issues.

[Vince's Torn Quads]

Taker has a demonic thirst for human women - see the Black Wedding to Stephanie.

Kane has power because he is related to Taker, obviously. Of course, if your father was Paul Bearer you might wear a mask and not speak for being in constant fear of looking and talking like dad.

[randomranter]

Sept 3, 2008 18:31:02 GMT -5 The Curmudgeon said:

Put yourself in this scenario. A madman kidnaps you and ties you to a chair. He puts a gun to your head and talks to you about wrestling. In particular - The Undertaker and Kane.

Now, he DEMANDS a good answer, or he'll kill you, of just what the characters of Kane and Taker are supposed to be.

Taker is able to rise up from all kinds of punishment. He can make lightning come from the ceiling and fire come from the ground. Is Undertaker a zombie? A demon? If so - why was his normal, human wife on TV? What is the deal?

Then there's Kane. He seems to have similar powers to Taker, in that he can sit up from being hurt, and can make fire come out of the ring. He appeared in a mask but his face is fine. He spoke with a voicebox but his voice is fine. If Taker is a zombie that could (kind of) explain some of his powers - but what the hell is Kane supposed to be?

His finger is on the trigger. Answer the questions.

I'd say "It's easy to do. Watch. Shoot yourself. All you have to do is sit up and no-sell the bullet."

If he's willing to believe whatever I'd tell him about the Undertaker and Kane, he'd be willing to believe that anyway. Problem solved.

[Loki]

It's pro wrestling... logic doesn't belong there.

[ilggant]

I'd say "look behind you! it's Braden Walker!"

and run for my life. still tied to the chair.

[George Harrison]

Undertaker was a guy whose character simply developed until it was pretty much as far from the character as it should've been, but it was still played by the same person so it still stemmed from the original gimmick but became human in order to go further with the character.

Kane is his brother, and it has been frequently acknowleged that he is a psychopath and sometimes, things only happen in his head.

[afisch3]

Ok, here goes...

So, Undertaker and Kane are brothers. Actually, half brothers due to Paul Bearer, who worked at their parents' mortuary, having an affair with Undertaker's mother, which brought about Kane. They were about as normal as children in such an environment could be until a fire was set in the mortuary that killed their parents. Undertaker was also convinced that Kane was killed in the fire, when in reality Kane was secluded from Undertaker for the next couple of decades by Paul Bearer. Why? Maybe Paul was jealous of Undertaker being a link between Kane's mother and her husband, so he wanted to get revenge on him. But, not right away. He would want to take Undertaker down when he was at the highest point of his life. So, he hid Kane away and convinced Kane that he was disfigured from the fire, how he would need a voice box to talk because that would be the only way that people could understand him and then began to teach him about hating his brother, how Undertaker did that to him and that someday he would have his revenge.

Meanwhile, Paul would take young Undertaker in as a surrogate son and begin to train him in the occult, since Undertaker had decided that there was no light in his life. So, Undertaker began to delve into the dark magic, with the help of Paul Bearer. Meanwhile, Paul would be teaching Kane the same things, so that when the two would meet in the future Kane would be ready. Eventually Paul realized that he could make some money off of Undertaker's newfound powers so he brought him into the WWF. Not knowing how to get the foot in the door, he enlisted the help of Brother Love to get Undertaker into the WWF, which occured at Survivor Series 1991. Meanwhile, Kane would begin his wrestling training, eventually befriending Katie Vick, not believing that a girl would not be repulsed with his scars. Then you have the accident and etc, etc, necrophilia. Paul would take that and use it against Kane to bring more hatred into his life, helping fuel Kane's hatred for humanity.

Paul also becomes the manager of Undertaker and rides the success, all the while taking a large cut of the profits. Around 1996, Kane catches wind of Paul managing Undertaker, and begins to rebel against Paul, aghast that Paul would align with the killer of his family. Paul decided that, in order to show that he is indeed still loyal to Kane, he would have to begin his betrayal of Undertaker earlier than expected, which results in the betrayal at Summerslam 1996. Paul tries to buy time until Kane has mastered the dark arts enough to match Undertaker's powers, so the feud goes on and on through April 1997. Around this time Paul begins the plot to bring Undertaker down and destroy his psyche, revealing the secret of Kane's existance in the summer of 1997. Kane is finally ready in October 1997 and the feud begins.

Fast forward to 1999. Undertaker is out with an injury when he is befriended by Sara, who eventually convinces Undertaker that he is not the occultist that Paul Bearer convinced him he was, and that Undertaker could actually be a human being. Undertaker begins to stray away from his dark past, a past that Kane cannot let go. However, since their reconciliation in late 2000/early 2001, Kane decides that he can live with Undertaker shedding his dark past. However, in 2003, Kane is forced to remove his mask, and the aura of him being a monster is damaged. He begins to doubt himself; is he really the occult monster he was told? He begins to place the blame on Undertaker. It's Undertaker's fault that people think Kane is human. It's Undertaker's fault that Kane had to take off the mask. Undertaker betrayed everything that Paul taught them, and it's time to finish what he started 6 years ago, which leads to the buried alive match at Survivor Series 2003.

After the Buried Alive match, Paul Bearer, realizing the error of his past, helps bring Undertaker back to health. Undertaker and Paul have a reconciliation, and Undertaker knows that he has to go back to the past in order to get revenge on Kane. So, Paul helps Undertaker reacquire his dark magic in time for Wrestlemania 20.

So, with that explaination, I hope to avoid the gunshot to the head.

[randomranter]

Sept 3, 2008 19:34:17 GMT -5 afisch3 said:

So, with that explaination, I hope to avoid the gunshot to the head.

Sorry. You forgot to explain that period of time where Kane took up dentistry.

*BANG*

[The Curmudgeon]

Sept 3, 2008 19:40:40 GMT -5 randomranter said:

Sept 3, 2008 19:34:17 GMT -5 afisch3 said:

So, with that explaination, I hope to avoid the gunshot to the head.

Sorry. You forgot to explain that period of time where Kane took up dentistry.

*BANG*

No, no - that's Isaac Yankem. Different character. Our psycho with the gun knows that. Pfff - he's not MENTAL.

Afisch3 - that's a pretty damn good explanation, actually. You can live.

[mrjl]

Here's my explanation of Kane's life story. It's based on the fact that heels who want to torment faces lie but has some truth in case it's checked out.

"You know, I can't believe how much trouble people have with the
Kane/Taker storyline. I've got it completely figured out and I've
never even sat down to think about it. I've just put it together
during times when they've feuded and when key things have been
revealed.

Taker and Kane's parents run a mortuary and they probably live in an
apartment over it. Kinda weird, but just think of them as the Addams
family. One of their employees is Paul Bearer, who has an affair with
Taker and Kane's mom. To explain the "powers" figure that they are
not any mainstream religion but some sort of dark arts. The urns I
would suggest are their grandparents, not parents.


Taker or Kane sets fire to the place. Their parents die in the fire.
In fact Taker is assumed to be the only survivor. But Kane survives
with some burns. Taker goes to foster care or relatives. Bearer
knows Kane is his son, proves it and gets custody. He's able to keep
it quiet.


Kane's burns though minor, scare him tramatically. He rarely speaks,
and is convinced he's at least partially disfigured. Unsure of how to
help him, Bearer gives into his sons delusions and allows him to wear
a mask. Say, the second mask he wore in the WWE or something like it.


Kane has few if any friends, but Katie Vick is a nice enough girl that
she tries to reach out to him. She's able to reach him. She
convinces him to go to a party, she gets drunk. Here's where I don't
recall part of the story. He either lets her drive, where with his
size he could've taken the keys and just slung her over his shoulder.
Or he tries to drive a car he's not familiar with because she's drunk.
There's an accident. Katie dies.


Meanwhile Undertaker goes on with his life. He works in WCW. He goes
to WWF, and creates a gimmick based on being a deadman because of his
childhood. He uses some of the dark arts that he learned when
younger, to help create the character and be dominant. When he drops
Brother Love and needs a little direction, he looks up old family
friend Paul Bearer and asks him if he's like to work with him. THey
come up with a story about their relationship.


During this time Taker's power source, the urn with his grandmother's
ashes is destroyed. In shock from the sudden loss of power Taker's
pummeled and stuck in the coffin. He uses his powers to leave a
rather sinister goodbye once he recovers in the coffin, and sets up to
make a return. The new urn contains his grandfather's ashes. It's
melted down by Kama. Kama, not being total scum, saves the ashes, and
returns them backstage when he loses the match with stipulations that
he'd have to return the chains he made from the urn.


Years later Undertaker and Paul split. Paul tries to get revenge. He
fails. So he turns to his son, who is living a directionless life.
He gets Kane to start training. And they decide to make his injuries
seem even worse than even Kane believes them to be. This is about
playing with Taker's head as much as taking him out physically.


But secrets come out, family wins out and Taker and Kane reconcile.
Kane uses the electronic voice box thing, (inproperly but Taker
doesn't know that.) to explain why he can talk, since he's in Taker's
presence more often.


Taker brings in more dark arts. But they start to wear on his body.
(remember magic having consequences is big in just about everything
concerning magic.) Injuries force him to take time off. Sometime
during this he's married Sara. So he decides to drop the dark arts.


Kane, now away from Taker, forgets to use the voice box. Taker
accepts this when he returns. He's more than willing to blame Paul.
The nWo unmasks Kane. So when he returns he uses his old mask. Kane
loses a mask vs. title mask, and the fact his hair is weird, his face
is contorted and dirty leads JR to a premature statement about how bad
it looks. It's not the cleanest. Kane really believes he's scarred
so he left the mask on as much as possible. We discover how much of
what happened to Kane was in his head.


Taker is humiliated by Brock Lesnar and Vince, so reluctantly he goes
back to his past. Buried Alive match. He loses thanks to Kane.


Paul is watching on TV and sees how nuts his son has gotten. Being
buried under that dirt could've suffocated Taker, or crushed him. So
he volunteers his help, to deal with his looney toons kid. Taker
turns back to the dark arts out of necessity.


There you go. A storyline somewhere between kayfabe and real, no real
plots holes, and it took longer to write than to think up. All it
requires is a belief in magic, which lots of people do. The key is
not blaming every change on plot holes, or continuity problems, but
remembering people do lie about themselves

[randomranter]

Sept 3, 2008 19:50:12 GMT -5 The Curmudgeon said:

No, no - that's Isaac Yankem. Different character. Our psycho with the gun knows that. Pfff - he's not MENTAL.

So what you're saying is that a guy who breaks into your house, puts a gun to your head, and wants to know the history of two supernatural wrestling characters is perfectly sane?

Could you do me a favor.......Explain your version of sanity to my doctors. It might just help me to get more than supervised weekend passes.......I keep telling him that the voices screaming "MAY 19TH" have stopped, and the desire to hunt down a 12 year old in a Halloween mask is gone. I just want to see Katie one more time......

[Nuke is Good]

Destrucity

Destrucity is a concept that came to me as I was developing Warrior as a comic book project. Each comic book project has their own universe, so to speak. A self-contained Universe where the story unfolds and the comic book characters do their business of existing. I called the graphically created Warrior comic character’s Universe “Destrucity”, i.e, The Creation of a truce between Destiny and Reality. It grew from this: The comic book project being a destined (I believed) fictional creation spun from the real-life Ultimate Warrior sports entertainer. It was my neologistic melding of the two Universes I would be operating in as, both, the eponymous creator of the comic book project and as the performer of the Ultimate Warrior, who had for many years already up to that point, being from a place called “Parts Unknown”, spoken some wild and vividly imaginative thoughts; Destrucity being another imaginative creative thought. This was one of my ways of cultivating promotional intrigue for the comic book project.

In the midst of thinking it through for its specific storytelling definition there, i.e., Destrucity as a comic book Universe, I realized it was -- in its approach -- a true-to-life methodology I was practicing in my own life. A way of balancing day-to-day existence (Reality) with what one can wonder or believe about existence beyond this world (Destiny) or, more specifically, how or whether that existence beyond, if it were to exist, plays any role in our lives here on Earth, as so many people, consciously or subconsciously, do believe. That was great I thought because I wanted the comic book project to carry creative yet serious ideas within it, to entertain and stimulate serious thinking -- Edutainment.

The problem for centuries, since the beginning of time, has been that the dogmatic influences of organized religions have kept people, out of guilt and fear, from clearly separating the two. That is, the difficulty of delineating the “here and now,” from the “there and later”, if this hereafter world does even exist at all.

Now is what matters now. Those who do not observe this have, first, been fooled by others, and second, are using the fooling they’ve suffered to only continue blindly fooling themselves. Whatever one wants to believe or wonder about a possible existence hereafter -- and there are dozens of different convictions and conjectures -- they will. But having it directly conflict with the living of your life here on Earth is asinine and absurd. And is not what the Creator of human life intended.

My position is this: Any Creation demands that there be a Creator. The Universe is the Creation. It follows, rather precedes, that it was created by some form of a Creator. That is as far as I need to know about that as it relates to my living a life here on Earth as a human being. Knowing its face doesn’t change what it is. And my refusal to put one on it, does not endow me some enablement, nor curse, that I can or will live evilly. There are already an abundant log of faces fueling the inveterate fights in religion.

Yes, I can wonder what answers are held beyond my life here, and I will at times. But what I do not know for certain -- maybe will one day, maybe never will -- cannot dictate what I for certain know I can and must do with my life as a human being. My decisions about here must square with what here is. That is reality. I can wonder that there is a heaven where there is no strife, no suffering. But if I sit and do nothing here as if a puppet on strings waiting to be activated or plopped into fortune, or purposely do what is detrimental to my well-being or existence here, there is no doubt that I and the others associated to me in my life will struggle and suffer and endure pains here and now. The goal for the human being is happiness, not suffering and struggling. Even those who are suffering because of their own unique-to them environmental circumstances are striving, if only in their thoughts, for happiness.

Reality is: What is, is. The recognition of truth. That which is real, being an actual thing; having objective existence, not imaginary. Each of us must choose what we believe about the “there and later” as I call it; Destrucity is not a rationalizing guide to be used to decide on “there and later” dumbly and blindly. Reality dictates: Existence Exists. If it is there, it is. You cannot escape reality, for in the end it will never avoid you.

Destiny has always been locked into a connotation, an idea of something spiritual or ethereal. Something out of our control. My faith stops at the recognition I have for the "gift of my life", my birth. I have to have a wondering faith about that because I -- none of us -- know in an absolute way that is provable. Destiny, in it's literal meaning doesn't presuppose faith as I recognize it. I have no "blind faith," when it comes to determining the outcome of my life - fulfilling my destiny. If it were meant that we were not to use our capabilities as a human, then we wouldn't have been given -- gifted, if one desires -- the "human" tools we do have.

Spirit (Soul) means to me: the animating principle that makes what is alive different from what is dead. Wherever that energy for animation comes from, and whatever I believe about it, does not effect or change that I know I must, here on Earth, process the use of that energy through the vessel I have been provided to use it through -- the human body and the human mind. Thinking “there and later” is not being “here and now”. And "here and now" is where I know I am and, also, am conscious of -- know --the animation I have. Where are you? HERE. What time is it? NOW

Destiny is: [1.] one's own inevitable, inescapable fate. [2.] A predetermined course of events. [3.] The power or agency thought to predetermine events. Who and what is “one’s own?” The being is the who; the what is its life. What is inevitable, inescapable, and predetermined in it’s course is fixed by the nature of the being’s life. For the human being’s life, what is inevitable, inescapable, and predetermined in its course is that for one’s own life to exist it must be sustained and generated by [it]self.

Since Fate is: [1.] The force or power that determines events. [2.] A final result; outcome, (i.e., one's own results and outcome) -- We can know the force, power or agency of the human being’s life that is predetermined to sustain and generate [it]self is one’s own mind and body. By one’s own volition (choice) and effort (mental or physical exertion) one controls what the results and outcome of [his] life will be. We think, and with our thoughts we

determine our fate by determining -- again, by our own volition -- our subsequent course of action, which in turn, actualizes what we had 
determined in our minds. We have the sovereign power -- proprio moto -- over our destiny; our fate is effected by doing this either positively or negatively.

Destrucity is my approach to the world. My battleplan for living life toward its ultimate; creating an ineluctable bond between what “is”, what I "believe" and what I “ought” to do.


Then I'd run hopefully he fell asleep by then.

[randomranter]

Sept 3, 2008 21:06:02 GMT -5 Nuke is Good said:

Destrucity

Destrucity is a concept that came to me as I was developing Warrior as a comic book project.....

If that were me, you'd be dead by the end of this sentence.

[A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto)]

Sept 3, 2008 18:56:51 GMT -5 George Harrison said:

Undertaker was a guy whose character simply developed until it was pretty much as far from the character as it should've been, but it was still played by the same person so it still stemmed from the original gimmick but became human in order to go further with the character.

Kane is his brother, and it has been frequently acknowleged that he is a psychopath and sometimes, things only happen in his head.

^This would be my answer. But also, I would explain that a lot of The Undertaker's power/magic from a long time ago was only because he had an unexplained, mystical urn. Having the urn near him for so many years allowed him to keep some of those powers permanently.

[MikeTX]

afisch3, I openly admire (this is said without sarcasm) your ability to fill in the continuity gaps with events and feelings that seem entirely logical (at least in the twisted internal logic of pro wrestling). I wish your sense of, well, sense extended to most wrestling bookers.

Really makes you wonder if they expected the 'Taker to stick around (and stay over) this long. Imagine some of the crap they'd come up with if Boogeyman had made it to the main event ...

[ilggant]

Sept 3, 2008 19:34:17 GMT -5 afisch3 said:

Not knowing how to get the foot in the door, he enlisted the help of Brother Love to get Undertaker into the WWF, which occured at Survivor Series 1991.

*BANG!*

1990

[bigHEADinc]

Sept 3, 2008 19:34:17 GMT -5 afisch3 said:

Kane/Undertaker story, way too long to quote...

Nice job sir... That is perhaps the most coherent and well-defined backstory for the two I've ever seen anyone concoct. I was gonna write one too, but you hit the nail on the head. The only thing I would change is the Katie Vick thing...

See, Katie Vick met Kane a long time ago, when Kane was about 10-11 years old. She was a nearby neighbor and had seen Kane a few times, but always out of the corner of her eye. One day she notices Kane peering out of a window and, when Bearer left, she went over to say hi. Initially she was a bit scared of Kane, but curious due to his surprisingly calm nature. Kane wasn't always this calm but Katie brought something out of him. For the next few years, Katie would visit in the middle of the night and both would just lay together, for she had a past of her own. Growing up, her stepfather had molested her several times but she couldn't say anything while he kept up appearances as a leader of the community. She saw an inverse in Kane, a monster on the outside with a heart of gold inside.

Their friendship was kept a secret at Kane's insistence as he didn't want to face the wrath of his father for going against his wishes. Despite this, the relationship was kept alive for a few years, leading to Katie's sophomore year of high school.

One night, Katie came by to Kane, showing off her learner's permit to drive. She convinced Kane to come out with her and take her dad's car. After they had driven for a bit, Katie convinced Kane to let her teach him to drive. While out on the back country roads, Kane drove surprisingly well until a deer jumped into the road, causing Kane to swerve into a nearby tree. Regaining consciousness, Kane saw Katie's dead body and freaked out. Not only was he filled with grief over Katie's death but he feared his father's retribution for his insolence. With that, Kane dragged Katie's body to the driver's seat and stalked off into the night.

Kane became even more despondent than he'd ever been as the only person who seemed to visibly love him was now gone. One sleepless night, he walked into his father's work room where he had his mortuary business. Curious, he peeled back the covers off a body and, to his shock, revealed a naked Katie Vick. Kane began to weep over the body before he noticed her naked form. Kane had never seen a naked female and this was doing new and strange things to his body. Taking it all in, Kane was startled by his father Paul who came in with a fury. "What the f*** are you dong?! You pervert! Nobody will ever love you because you're a monster! Don't fill your head with empty dreams!" and, with that, Bearer beat him and then locked Kane in the basement, keeping up the abuse for years until Kane's eventual rebirth as a complete monster.

[Lance Uppercut]

Sept 3, 2008 21:04:08 GMT -5 randomranter said:

Sept 3, 2008 19:50:12 GMT -5 The Curmudgeon said:

No, no - that's Isaac Yankem. Different character. Our psycho with the gun knows that. Pfff - he's not MENTAL.

So what you're saying is that a guy who breaks into your house, puts a gun to your head, and wants to know the history of two supernatural wrestling characters is perfectly sane?

yeah but if he was a pyscho uber fan, he's be like "No Kane and Isaac Yankem are different guys, i don't caer what you say. How could he go to dental school if he was in the basement and thought he was scarred for so many year?".

[Tarik Dee]

madman? more like madMARK , who dont know that wrestling is scripted? if he kidnaped me i'll just explain in the most smarkish fashion whats happen behind backstage, he will be so sad that he's going to yell "IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMN IT" and shoot himself