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Post by biggdeez40 on Nov 7, 2008 15:12:05 GMT -5
I must be the only person who thinks the overall product now is better than it ever has been. I thought the three hour Raw was entertaining from beginning to end, same with all of this years PPV's. The Hulkamania and Attitude era's had higher highs but also lower lows. Todays product may not be spectacular but its much more consistent. It just needs a few more original storylines, not a major overhaul.
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Post by Loki on Nov 7, 2008 16:22:38 GMT -5
I'll try to put it in just one short sentence:
non-fans and former bandwagon-fans WON'T watch, no matter who gets pushed, no matter how many "New Stars" are created, no matter how hard WWE will try to book a "cool" and "mainstream" show.
Heyman, and many others, can just stick with TEW and fantasy booking... The fad is over, and the next one will be CASUAL, as it was in 1998 and in 1985.
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Post by Fantozzi on Nov 7, 2008 16:33:40 GMT -5
the next one will be CASUAL, as it was in 1998 and in 1985. that's your opinion wwe can choose WHO is their posterboy, and while i agree they can't create a megastar if they don't have a hogan or an austin they could at least try
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Post by Loki on Nov 7, 2008 16:52:04 GMT -5
the next one will be CASUAL, as it was in 1998 and in 1985. that's your opinion wwe can choose WHO is their posterboy, and while i agree they can't create a megastar if they don't have a hogan or an austin they could at least try The casuality of a boom may be my opinion, but I think many are missing the main point here... "trying" is what WWE have been doing! From Brock Lesnar to John Cena, they have TRIED hard to recapture the fans who were drifting away. And in total honesty, I fail to see all that "lack of ____" a lot of you are constantly moaning about. New Stars have been created, new guys have been pushed (depushed and even fired), some other new guys are in the making, and some big storylines had been tried and executed. WWE isn't "compelling TV" anymore also because it's the same damn concept we've been watching since what? 1996? And considering a portion of fans even have more wrestling hours on their back (the 80s and early 90s fans), hell, is it a surprise a part of them have grown tired of pro wrestling as a whole to the point of stopping watching? That's the same reason for a 10 years old kid will find The Simpsons' current episodes awesome, while old-school fans are lukewarm at best... Over-f'n-exposure! I'm not speaking of you, die-hard fans, who would watch backyard wrestling just because it's wrestling. I'm talking about "people who enjoyed wrestling because it was a novelty" people. Or casual/tepid fans. For all we know, WWE could put on the best show ever, with the best technical wrestlers ever, with the more awesome build-up this side of Hogan v Andre, and it STILL would fail to outdraw a random Attitude Era RAW... Care to guess why?
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Post by Andrew is Good on Nov 7, 2008 17:05:25 GMT -5
as much as i like heyman, a middle aged white guy telling an old aged white guy about whats hip is laughable, ive seen him do it in a few of these articles but its especially ridiculous when it comes to hip hop, chingo bling is a joke and a dated one at that Heyman is surprising up to speed with pop culture, and always has been, despite being bald, fat, and in his 40s. That's what is said from peers about him anyway. I liked how DX poked fun at their age. And by cooler, I think he means more culturally relevant, which Miz and Morrison are with Miz being the socialite type, douchebag character and Morrison being the ultra left wing, smug artistic character. I really was hoping for Miz and Morrison to go over DX, I think Heyman said before, having the new guard beat the old guard. Even if it's by cheating, which would have been better. Again, the pop culture idea is being put forth again in his writings, and sometimes it does seem like he's repeating himself, but sometimes when making a point, that's what you have to do. Everything he says reverts back to needing to be more culturally relevant, which WWE tends to not be ever unless someone makes a change in the company.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Nov 7, 2008 17:27:33 GMT -5
I'll try to put it in just one short sentence: non-fans and former bandwagon-fans WON'T watch, no matter who gets pushed, no matter how many "New Stars" are created, no matter how hard WWE will try to book a "cool" and "mainstream" show.Heyman, and many others, can just stick with TEW and fantasy booking... The fad is over, and the next one will be CASUAL, as it was in 1998 and in 1985. It wasn't a fluke or fad that it got popular back in the times that it did. When the business was its hottest, why was it hot back then. You had a babyface who was really over (Austin/Hogan) and a heel who was really hated (Piper/McMahon). Nowadays, they don't really have either. John Cena is over, but a good portion of the crowd hate him. So, he can't draw what he potentially could. Edge, again, great heel. Randy Orton, same thing. But they don't have the heat that a McMahon or a Piper had back in the heyday. With Lesnar and Cena, they were chosen by the office. They had a bit of a fan following, but they didn't have it like guys like Austin, Hogan, Rock, or others did. Back in the mid 80s, Vince picked up all the top drawing stars from all the different territories. So you had a big boom then, because everyone on the card knew how to draw money, or had great potential to draw money. And it did. It wasn't a fluke, wrestling gets popular because of the talent involved. And in the 90s, it wasn't as big as the boom in the 80s, but you had Austin, Rock, Mankind, DX, Undertaker and major guys like that who could draw you your big houses. And on top of that, all the guys on the bottom were still really over. When D'lo Brown came back, why did he get a huge reaction? Because he's still over from the Attitude Era, and he's still fresh. Same with Steve Blackman when he came back. Godfather is the same way. So it's very possible for the people to start coming back, but everything has to come together.
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Post by TRUTH TELLER on Nov 7, 2008 18:26:37 GMT -5
What does the last two boom periods have in common in addition to being built around one mega-hot over babyface?: A radical direction and format change from everything they had been doing. This era has run its course. Loki made an awesome point in another thread recently that really resonated with me. WWE could book a John Cena vs. Batista rematch for RAW next week, and it'd still not break a 3.5. And that's their top match. That just proves to me that, like has been mentioned, WWE is beating their heads against the wall for no reason trying to get their current antiquated direction over. It’s tired. It's time to change the format completely. This moronically terrible variety show format has ran its course. Time to go to the well again.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Nov 7, 2008 18:45:55 GMT -5
It should try to back to more of a sporting format, and I know I may get the, oh, you just want to see more wrestling smart mark or whatever. What's big right now is MMA. Now, one reason MMA got big was because of Ultimate Fighter, which got people to get to know and relate to on an emotional level, the fighters going in the Octagon, so it shows the pro wrestling aspect of emotional involvement is important.
So, make it more similar to MMA, and again, that's just something simple, I'm not a booker or a wrestling mastermind that can pinpoint what works in everything, if you get me. But something along the lines of that.
I think it's also important to establish that something is important and can't miss. A World Title for instance, if you have one guy as the World Champion over WWE, and have the three brands by themselves, and the champion comes to the brands, when the Champion is on your show, that is going to be a special show. Raw and Smackdown have enough talent to run a show without having a World Champion there. So, what happens then is the main event title picture gets a bit fresher because the Champion is facing guys from all three brands (even some upper midcard guys on the ECW brand). Do the same with the tag belts and the Women's belt.
Right now in WWE, nothing is can't miss. Having the one world champion means, hey, this is can't miss. I think the scripted format they have is another issue, because if you take a guy and he just goes way off script and does whatever he feels like, but also gets whatever business that there needs to be done done. Nothing comes off as organic, it's all fixed and scripted.
Maybe have one guy, and not have it, but maybe one guy just thinks, f*** it, I'm going off camera, and the camera has to follow me. And maybe he just strolls around talking about his match. It's a small example, something little, but hey, it's different.
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Post by Loki on Nov 7, 2008 19:13:26 GMT -5
See, there's still one point I don't get about the "product is stale" debate
What are we trying to do here?
1) Creating a new boom period, where people who never gave a toss about wrestling will tune in every week and will ask us about Ron McEntertainer v Tony DeWrestler?
2) Refreshing the format to bring back some fans who had grown tired of the old format?
Because to me, BOTH goals are virtually impossible to accomplish in the same time.
A new format could bring in new-old fans, but as I said before, non-fans won't still care much, unless there's something/someone unbelievably awesome. And in that case, the deviation from the "old style" could be big enough to draw away some old fans. It happened when Vince went national and "killed" the territories, it happened again when Family Friendly WWF became sleazy curse-n-boobs television.
I think the format change doesn't follow the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" rule, as causal viewers and die-hard fans have different tastes and interests.
A final note about said die-hard fans... Yes the format is stale, but there's just so much they can do with 5 weekly hours of TV and Pro Wrestling... PW is one of the most formulaic and "predictable" form of entertainers.
It's just like porn... ;D
When you first become a "fan", anything looks awesome, even the most basic (duh) thing. After years of watching (and hopefully of practicing) the basic one-on-one format can get a tad tedious. Or not?
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