KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
Posts: 7,591
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Post by KLRA on Dec 25, 2008 16:55:22 GMT -5
I just got this really giddy feeling. You're not the only one. Those are two of my favorites right now. I also fully expect 'fuji to win. I think it perfectly sets up Tyler winning it WrestleMania weekend, and it pumps needed "headlines" into ROH. Nigel's been a solid champ, but ROH doesn't need a solid champ right now. It needs a champion that will get people talking.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 25, 2008 20:44:16 GMT -5
Is it just me, or has Nigel not defended the belt against many high profile players.
El Generico? Tyler Black (a lackey for Jimmy Jacobs at the time)? Erick Stevens? Ruckus? I'm looking at the defenses of everyone else, and usually they're facing top of the card guys.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 25, 2008 20:48:37 GMT -5
Is it just me, or has Nigel not defended the belt against many high profile players. El Generico? Tyler Black (a lackey for Jimmy Jacobs at the time)? Erick Stevens? Ruckus? I'm looking at the defenses of everyone else, and usually they're facing top of the card guys. "Minutes after this post, Xavier was brought in for a special title match, and became the first 2 time champion." Look what you've done!
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Post by invaderdave on Dec 25, 2008 20:48:54 GMT -5
I'm thinking Nigel's reign might have been a way to get some new people into the limelight. Because honestly, there's no one left, top card wise, that people truly, deeply believe in, besides Aries, Dragon, and possibly Roddy. In certain cases (Tyler's, Generico's) it worked, and now we've got some believeable contenders. And in other cases (Ruckus') it didn't quite work.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 25, 2008 21:05:19 GMT -5
Maybe it's an old school feeling, but I just don't feel that a guy down the middle or the bottom of the card should get title matches. I understand putting them over, but what's more important. The top draw, or giving a shot to people at the bottom? The top guy is still the top guy, and guys at the bottom should be build towards the champion, and not just given a shot at the Champion.
Say Tyler Black took on Nigel in a non-title match, and took Nigel to the limit. That's fine, as the belt wasn't on the line. Then, you have a deal with Tyler where he takes on Nigel again, and if he beats Nigel, he gets a title shot. He loses again, but Nigel has to cheat to win. Then he goes off into another feud, maybe someone like Aries rags on him for losing again, bringing more into the Jacobs/Aries feud, or something like that, then you slowly build Black a little more after that.
As long as Tyler is Jimmy Jacobs' second, I have a hard time viewing him as a title contender, and I feel it hurts the belt more then anything.
And with Generico's out of no where competitive matches, I think even in the commentary with Nigel thinking he'll have a quick warm up match, and there was a reason Nigel's character would think that. El Generico isn't that much of a challenger for the belt, at least not yet. So when Generico keeps taking him to the limit in title matches, it hurts the belt, because he's just a guy at the bottom of a card getting a token title match. Again, Black and Generico are great, and they could be made out in the future to be main event players. But I feel it went to fast and hurt the belt, which in turn, maybe hurt the drawing power.
It's like with TNA. What did Jay Lethal do or who did he beat to deserve a title match. I'm not saying he can't get one, but he hasn't beaten enough top guys to get his title shot. It's like what Jim Cornette said. What did the babyface 3rd from the bottom of your card do to deserve a title shot?
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Post by invaderdave on Dec 25, 2008 21:12:17 GMT -5
Well, in Tyler's case, he'd been taking guys like Dragon and the Briscoes to the limit, and was included in a four way (at the Take No Prisoners PPV) in which the winner would take on the champion later in the night. Its not much, but its a start, and his match with Nigel that night, in which the champ barely put him away, cemented Tyler as a future great in a lot of people's minds.
Again, its not really much, but I like to think that Tyler didn't exactly come out of nowhere. However, I think the whole "who does this kid think HE is?" mentality helped him get over in some aspect.
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Post by x on Dec 25, 2008 21:12:56 GMT -5
Maybe it's an old school feeling, but I just don't feel that a guy down the middle or the bottom of the card should get title matches. I understand putting them over, but what's more important. The top draw, or giving a shot to people at the bottom? The top guy is still the top guy, and guys at the bottom should be build towards the champion, and not just given a shot at the Champion. Say Tyler Black took on Nigel in a non-title match, and took Nigel to the limit. That's fine, as the belt wasn't on the line. Then, you have a deal with Tyler where he takes on Nigel again, and if he beats Nigel, he gets a title shot. He loses again, but Nigel has to cheat to win. Then he goes off into another feud, maybe someone like Aries rags on him for losing again, bringing more into the Jacobs/Aries feud, or something like that, then you slowly build Black a little more after that. As long as Tyler is Jimmy Jacobs' second, I have a hard time viewing him as a title contender, and I feel it hurts the belt more then anything. And with Generico's out of no where competitive matches, I think even in the commentary with Nigel thinking he'll have a quick warm up match, and there was a reason Nigel's character would think that. El Generico isn't that much of a challenger for the belt, at least not yet. So when Generico keeps taking him to the limit in title matches, it hurts the belt, because he's just a guy at the bottom of a card getting a token title match. Again, Black and Generico are great, and they could be made out in the future to be main event players. But I feel it went to fast and hurt the belt, which in turn, maybe hurt the drawing power. It's like with TNA. What did Jay Lethal do or who did he beat to deserve a title match. I'm not saying he can't get one, but he hasn't beaten enough top guys to get his title shot. It's like what Jim Cornette said. What did the babyface 3rd from the bottom of your card do to deserve a title shot? ...Tyler Black earned his shot in a number one contender's fatal four way match. And if Nigel is the champion and feuding with Kevin Steen and he hates Kevin Steen soooo much that he wants to beat the crap out of El Generico, then he should be allowed to fight El Generico. Non title matches suck. It's like telling your fans "Come pay to see our World Champion, but we just want your money because you aren't cool enough fans to get a title defense"
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The Line
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Post by The Line on Dec 25, 2008 21:15:31 GMT -5
Is it just me, or has Nigel not defended the belt against many high profile players. El Generico? Tyler Black (a lackey for Jimmy Jacobs at the time)? Erick Stevens? Ruckus? I'm looking at the defenses of everyone else, and usually they're facing top of the card guys. Well, there really aren't the high profile guys left. I mean, Nigel can only defend the title against Claudio, Hero, Danielson and Aries so many times.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Dec 25, 2008 21:20:29 GMT -5
Is it just me, or has Nigel not defended the belt against many high profile players. El Generico? Tyler Black (a lackey for Jimmy Jacobs at the time)? Erick Stevens? Ruckus? I'm looking at the defenses of everyone else, and usually they're facing top of the card guys. Well, there really aren't the high profile guys left. I mean, Nigel can only defend the title against Claudio, Hero, Danielson and Aries so many times. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I love all the guy's mentioned here, ESPECIALLY Hero and Claudio, but they missed the boat with Hero, and I personally believe that Claudio should be the champ right now, but that's neither here nor there. It's time to start trying to make new main eventers.
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Post by invaderdave on Dec 25, 2008 21:21:20 GMT -5
I'd also contend that putting Tyler in the ring for Samoa Joe's return is a nice solid vote of confidence.
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The Line
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Post by The Line on Dec 25, 2008 21:26:06 GMT -5
And frankly, I feel Nigel is the perfect guy for that. I mean, he was just an above-average midcarder before he started having matches with Danielson back in 06.
I feel Nigel's reign is going to be another one that will not be able to be fully grasped and appreciated until after it ends. I mean, yeah, there are a few guys that it could be argued that the ball was dropped with, but that happens with every substancial ROH title reign, it seems(Roddy and Delirious with Dragon, Claudio with Mori, Shelley with Aries, So on and so fourth). FOr every oen or two guys that had the ball dropped with, there are at least two guys who were "made" in title matches against McGuinness.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 25, 2008 22:56:04 GMT -5
But, even with Tyler Black winning the contendership match, he just got there and is still Jacobs' lackey, so not only would it hurt Nigel for defending the belt against him, but it hurts his three opponents for losing to the new guy, who is somebody's lackey. Again, taking others to the limit like Danielson is fine, but I feel giving him a title shot after 6 or so months.
And yeah, Kevin Steen earned his shots, he won so many billion matches before he took on Nigel, he earned his title shot. El Generico got it because he knew Steen, that makes no sense. So, basically if you're a friend of a contender, you can get a title shot. I know non-title matches may be seen as cop-outs, but would you rather put on a good match that wasn't a title match, or devalue your title by putting it against some guy half way down your babyface roster. He can wrestle El Generico, that's fine. But, don't give him a title match because he's friends with Kevin Steen. And I like El Generico, but I'm looking at it in a sense of keeping the belt in high prestiege, and using the guy who holds the belt as the top draw. When you're top draw is putting on hard fought matches against guys well below him, then it only brings down the Champion.
I understand that there isn't much competition right now, but that shouldn't mean you should give title shots to people who aren't ready for it yet. If Tyler Black came in with build behind him, and was made out to be a major player from the get go, instead of a cog in the machine that is Age of the Fall, I'd say he should get title shots. But it's all about how he's perceived. Nigel as Champion should get the best competition, and having a number 2 of anything, no matter how good he is, only hurts the Champion. Like, I love Joey Matthews, and he had an established record of taking on big guys in WWE, and beating some of them, like an Eddie Guerrero. But, as a cog in the machine of the Age of the Fall, putting him against Nigel would have hurt Nigel, because he's simply a lackey.
Again, I know having non-title matches maybe viewed as a cop out, but to me from looking at the prestiege of a title (and the ROH belt really has a lot of prestiege the way it's been used), having token title matches, and title matches against undeserving wrestlers hurts the belt.
And again, I don't mean to seem like I'm putting down Tyler Black, El Generico, and others that he faced like Ruckus and Erick Stevens, they're all great talent. But, there are a lot of great midcard talent, that have potential to be main event talent. It's like, Bobby Lashley. Great talent, great potential. But, when he won the ECW Belt against Big Show, he didn't deserve it. RVD deserved it. Big Show deserved it. Lashley didn't (and then they hurt the prestiege of that belt by putting more mid to upper midcarders with that belt).
My opinion on wrestling is everything should be about drama and emotion. That's the most important part of wrestling, because that's what will sell tickets. And I feel when I say that (especially on the ROH boards) people think gimmicks and Sports Entertainment. The biggest drama you could have is that of your world title. The wrestling is what's being worked, and the drama based off of that. Now, if you have the belt being put against top contenders, that's drama. And while the matches would be good, I'm pretty sure it was a no brainer that El Generico wasn't winning the strap. And if he did, it makes the Champion and the belt look bad, because a midcarder won it. Now, drama in a match where there is no title on the line is different, because you don't know if they're going to win or lose, because it's non title, and anyone could win one. I feel putting the belt up against midcarders, it hurts the potential for the drama, as the belt is supposed to mean so much, but anybody can fight for it, so it hurts the drama in the long run. If that makes any sense, I've been drinking tonight ladies and gentlemen, I'm off work, so I don't have anything else to do.
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Post by lockedontarget on Dec 25, 2008 23:14:51 GMT -5
One of the best things about Ring of Honor is that on any given night, a midcarder has a chance to beat a main eventer legit. Ring of Honor isn't like the WWE, where you have your main eventers and everyone is "below" them. Ring of Honor is about competition, FIERCE competition. It doesn't devalue the title to have other guys chasing it, it makes the title into something that is hotly contested, it makes the champion someone who is always threatened, always at risk. It means to hold that title, you have to fight on all comers, you have to be challenged.
The ROH title is validated through an entire roster full of guys that have a legit shot at winning it.
Your problem is you're taking the WWE mindset of "well this guy isn't one of the top stars so he should look weaker" but that's not how ROH does things. And thank God they don't.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 25, 2008 23:25:38 GMT -5
I'm looking at it from the perspective of drawing money, which WWE does (though not as much as they used to). If Wrestler A either loses a bunch, doesn't have the best win/loss record, or faces talent that don't have the best win/loss record, why do they deserve a title shot? A guy like Bryan Danielson, who beat the champ, and beat a bunch of people to get to the champ, or was a former champ anyway, he deserves a title shot. Austin Aries deserves it. They're established. Again, if Black was brought in differently, it would be different.
Does Jigsaw deserve a title shot? If everyone has a chance to get it, why doesn't he get a shot? Or Rhett Titus? Or Grizzly Redwood? Or Chaysan Rance? Or Shane Hagadorn? Or Bobby Dempsey? Do these people have a legit shot of winning it? There is still a hierarchy of challengers, and there should still be a line up of them, and some people deserve it more then others. Not everyone on the roster should be on even playing field. Everyone needs to be built, and I don't feel Tyler Black or El Generico were properly built when they receieved their shots.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 26, 2008 0:05:11 GMT -5
What works for me in ROH is that, even if midcarders get a crack at the champion, the bookers usually do a very good job of making sure each guy is portrayed the way you'd expect him to be.
In other words, ROH tends to do a solid job of establishing "tiers" of wrestlers, and guys who are on the top tier (Dragon, Nigel, et. al.) are going to wrestle differently depending on what "tier" their opponent is on.
I always look back at that short match back at Night of Remembrance, during Dragon's reign, when AmDrag faced Azrieal as a warm up match before he took on whoever won the 3 way dance later in the show. That match was a perfect example of how you tier wrestlers; Az was clearly a lower card guy, Dragon was the brutally efficient and talented champ, and they wrestled that way. Az wasn't buried at all, but it was made abundantly clear that he wasn't on Dragon's level.
I haven't seen enough of Nigel's reign to have a full frame of reference, but I've heard that's somewhat what they've done with him, as well. He had to face Ruckus after Ruckus won the Rumble, but the actual booking of the match made it clear that Nigel was the superior wrestler, while Ruckus, who still put up a fight, wasn't at his level.
That's an incredibly important thing for wrestling companies to do; establish just who the hell your top dogs are, who your supporting cast is, and who your jobbers are. You rarely need to "bury" anybody, and certain guys can always move around between the various levels/tiers in either direction, but you still want that kind of definition. It makes booking and planning out how you're going to present your matches MUCH simpler.
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Post by x on Dec 26, 2008 3:30:02 GMT -5
I'm looking at it from the perspective of drawing money, which WWE does (though not as much as they used to). If Wrestler A either loses a bunch, doesn't have the best win/loss record, or faces talent that don't have the best win/loss record, why do they deserve a title shot? A guy like Bryan Danielson, who beat the champ, and beat a bunch of people to get to the champ, or was a former champ anyway, he deserves a title shot. Austin Aries deserves it. They're established. Again, if Black was brought in differently, it would be different. Does Jigsaw deserve a title shot? If everyone has a chance to get it, why doesn't he get a shot? Or Rhett Titus? Or Grizzly Redwood? Or Chaysan Rance? Or Shane Hagadorn? Or Bobby Dempsey? Do these people have a legit shot of winning it? There is still a hierarchy of challengers, and there should still be a line up of them, and some people deserve it more then others. Not everyone on the roster should be on even playing field. Everyone needs to be built, and I don't feel Tyler Black or El Generico were properly built when they receieved their shots. If the New York Giants are 9-7, Dallas Cowboys are 13-3, according to your theory, the Giants don't deserve a chance at the playoffs to beat three other teams and to dethrone the redhot New England Pats. Just because someone has somebody above them in the NFC East (or the Age Of The Fall) doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed the same chance to work their way up and beat the champion.
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Post by Overly large testicles on Dec 26, 2008 7:01:46 GMT -5
El Generico is a bottom of the card guy? What the f***?
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Post by darkpatriot on Dec 26, 2008 10:08:05 GMT -5
yeah I was wondering that too. guy is part of the #1 contender tag team(at the time of the first match,tag champ the second match) and a road to the top finalist.
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Post by lockedontarget on Dec 26, 2008 11:19:07 GMT -5
Considering the ROH tag belts are almost as much if not as important as the ROH world title, I don't see why members of the top tag teams aren't worthy challengers for the belt. Steenerico, AOTF, and the Briscoes are the top tag teams...which makes them among the top guys in the company in a kayfabe sense.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 26, 2008 12:56:28 GMT -5
Generico didn't have as successful as a singles run as Steen did. I mean, since Nigel has been the champ all year, why doesn't he find a random partner and go for the tag team titles? He's not a tag team wrestler.
And on the football theory, the New York Giants aren't the lackeys of the Dallas Cowboys. That's somewhat of an odd comparison, I don't think it really applies here. Not only that, but Black was just brought in. Who should be challenging for the belt? The number 2 babyface, or the number 6 heel. I'm just sayin. Why doesn't Mike Knox get a shot at the World Heavyweight Championship? Why doesn't R-Truth get a shot at the WWE Championship. Or maybe Eric Young at the TNA World Title. All good/great talent, but not in the position where they should be getting world title shots.
I go back to 1997. Shawn Michaels is the head guy in DX. Should Triple H be getting World Title shots? Would that not look right? Let's go back even further. Should Tully Blanchard be getting title shots above Ric Flair? Hell, when Randy Orton won the World Title in Evolution, to me it didn't seem right, because he was the number 2 guy in relation to Triple H.
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