Rollups/Other Alternative Pins

[Toates Madhackrviper]

Alright, granted, as I have mentioned elsewhere, I haven't been a wrestling fan for very long, but I've been able to catch up and understand most of the major concepts and really be able to see why so and so loves this aspect and why so and so hates this aspect, but one thing that continues to flabbergast me is why everyone has it out for rollups and their ilk

To me, watching the usual grab one leg and pin the guy thing gets boring, and having sunset flips and rollups adds variety and excitement to the way a match can end. It also adds a fun and interesting way to make a high flier beating a heavyweight legitimate.

Yet every time it happens [usually on a TNA Pay Per View I've noticed] people get up in arms like it's some TERRIBLE SIN that this wrestler DARE to use a rollup pin

My reaction is always

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? What makes a rollup some dirty illegitimate finish to a match?

[rawthentic]

It never bothered me. It's just something that when there is nothing else about a match to whine about, there is always the roll up finish.

I think a roll up would be harder to kick out of because your shoulders are actually PINNED and you have nothing under you to push for the kick out. It's harder to "kick out" when your legs are already out and you can't move your hips. I think roll ups are just fine. I actually believe somebody being unable to get both shoulders off the mat for 3 second when a man using all his strength has full control of his lower body and pinning his shoulders down more than i believe somebody takes a "trademark" manuever and can't kick out when they have full control of their body. Kayfabe of course, these are supposed to be presented as "real"...roll up is a legit way to win a match.

I know i would kick out of Alex Shelley "Sliced bread" or Kurt Angle's "Angle slam" all day. The styles clash, kick out if they just left me on my back with full control of my body. However, in a shoot finish, let's say a roll up drill, if any of those guys rolled me up and had my legs, and hips off the ground and in their control to where all i have is my shoulders pinned and they put their strength and weight on me. There is a good chance i might not get a shoulder up before the ref counts three.

Roll ups are perfectly reasonable finishes, that's why they are used as frequently as they are(in TNA and WWE) because they are supposed to be believable because of that fact that it's a complete stuggle to kick out of a roll up. They just arent as entertaining as the big finishing move and i understand that. It's when people act like it was a weak finish by saying "after ALL those moves, he falls to a roll up?"...yeah, the roll up was harder to kick out of for reasons right infront of your eyes.

[@TenaciousBe]

I think most of the time it's not the rollup pin itself, but the setup. Wrestler A has a partner on the outside who's distracting Wrestler B, then Wrestler A rolls up the unsuspecting Wrestler B, catching them off guard and thus it's a sort of dirty pin, based on it being an indirect double team.

Then again, it's Wrestler B's fault anyway for paying more attention to the guy on the outside than his own opponent inside the ring.

[GaTechGrad]

Because WWE set the precedent of having to do a finisher at least twice before getting a pin in PPV matches.

[Andrew is Good]

Jake Roberts said it best in a recent shoot. What a pussy way to get beat? A roll up? If you got beat with somebody's finish, then hey, it was the guy's finish. That's tough to kick out of. But a roll up? How wimpy is that.

[bobolebowski]

What pisses me off is when you have guys like Alex Shelley....(and I love Alex Shelley...he's one of my favorite wrestlers in TNA)....hit like 18 finishers in a match ......and then win with a roll-up.....

Like last Sunday.....Shelley vs Eric Young....Shelley hit like every move in his move list......and then won by rolling Eric Young up....

[HMARK Center]

Like anything else in a wrestling match, rollups should fit the match's psychology and story.

Too often, however, rollups are simply used as a way of saying "Hey, this guy won, but he didn't beat this guy easily!".

Look, that's fine. You can have matches like that, where a guy wins, but either wins via a desperation rollup, or maybe he outsmarts his opponent, whatever.

But it doesn't work as well when it's a rollup out of nowhere. Again, a match ending that way once in awhile isn't a bad thing; it reminds the crowd that a match can be won or lost at any time, by any maneuver.

But in terms of reaching your booking goals, that's not how you want to go about it too often. It can hurt the vibe of the crowd, who'd like to see more "big finishes" than quick ones on any given card.

Flash pins, rollups, whatever, they're all fine, but you just need to incorporate them intelligently into your matches, like anything else in wrestling. For example, while many here complained about the psychology of the recent Shelley vs. Sabin X-Division title match, I do think that ending it with a flash pin worked, because the match built to a point where it was clear Shelley couldn't beat Sabin using his normal repetoire.

Again, though, use it too much, and it makes the winner look weak, and the loser look kind of incompetent.

[bahgawdking]

A rollup finish to me is sort of anti-climatic. Take for example Senshi vs Sabin at BFG 2006, those two guys went back and forth with Sabin kicking out of Senshi's finisher and vice versa. It gets to the stage when you start to think "How the heck is he going to beat this guy? Cradle Shock from the top turnbuckle? Another variation of the Warrior's Way?".

Then Sabin got the rollup and the win. At your biggest event, you expect some magic things to happen and to build that whole match to a rollup was, to me, very anti-climatic.

[nerdinitupagain]

The surprise roll up has gotten a little boring, but hey... lazy booking is easier than thoughtful booking.

[x]

I'd much much rather take someone's finisher. At least when you take the finisher you just got knocked out most of the time.

If you get rolled up, you were conscious, yet couldn't kick out of a roll up. That makes you a (kayfabe) bad wrestler.

And to the OP: The only way you're going to get someone's shoulders pinned for 3 seconds shoot is to knock him out, fingerpoke of doom or be a really good amateur wrestler wrestling someone who has far less amateur wrestling skills than you.

[HMARK Center]

Feb 16, 2009 8:01:32 GMT -5 bahgawdking said:

A rollup finish to me is sort of anti-climatic. Take for example Senshi vs Sabin at BFG 2006, those two guys went back and forth with Sabin kicking out of Senshi's finisher and vice versa. It gets to the stage when you start to think "How the heck is he going to beat this guy? Cradle Shock from the top turnbuckle? Another variation of the Warrior's Way?".

Then Sabin got the rollup and the win. At your biggest event, you expect some magic things to happen and to build that whole match to a rollup was, to me, very anti-climatic.

I remember that match.

Senshi/Ki would not have looked bad at all if he had lost straight up to Sabin, e.g. taking another Cradle Shock or whatever. The crowd would've popped huge (the event was in Detroit, right?), and Sabin would've looked incredible for it.

But throwing in a flash pin gives it a slight vibe that Sabin was lucky to win. Again, those finishes aren't bad all the time, but there's a time and place for them.

[Joekishi]

I always consider rollups/pins clean wins they are just awesome if done right, I think that's why I liked Bret Hart

[Bo Rida]

What's the name on the pin that HBK used on HHH to win his return match, that's one that should be used more often.

[bahgawdking]

Feb 16, 2009 13:41:23 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Feb 16, 2009 8:01:32 GMT -5 bahgawdking said:

A rollup finish to me is sort of anti-climatic. Take for example Senshi vs Sabin at BFG 2006, those two guys went back and forth with Sabin kicking out of Senshi's finisher and vice versa. It gets to the stage when you start to think "How the heck is he going to beat this guy? Cradle Shock from the top turnbuckle? Another variation of the Warrior's Way?".

Then Sabin got the rollup and the win. At your biggest event, you expect some magic things to happen and to build that whole match to a rollup was, to me, very anti-climatic.

I remember that match.

Senshi/Ki would not have looked bad at all if he had lost straight up to Sabin, e.g. taking another Cradle Shock or whatever. The crowd would've popped huge (the event was in Detroit, right?), and Sabin would've looked incredible for it.

But throwing in a flash pin gives it a slight vibe that Sabin was lucky to win. Again, those finishes aren't bad all the time, but there's a time and place for them.

Here's the thing though, Senshi didn't continue his feud with Sabin after the event. In fact, Sabin didn't hold the title for all too long before losing it to Styles. Thus Sabin got frustrated and turned heel.

Even though they were in Michigan, the crowd was quite divided. Both Senshi and Sabin were getting pops, but this is TNA, and the fans just tend to pop for anything.

Add to the fact Sabin had been chasing that title since at least 2 PPV's before that, it would've been much more beneficial to have him hit one more cradle shock to pick up the win. Those two went all out, and having Sabin go over clean wouldn't have made Senshi look weak.

[HMARK Center]

Feb 16, 2009 15:52:52 GMT -5 bahgawdking said:

Feb 16, 2009 13:41:23 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

I remember that match.

Senshi/Ki would not have looked bad at all if he had lost straight up to Sabin, e.g. taking another Cradle Shock or whatever. The crowd would've popped huge (the event was in Detroit, right?), and Sabin would've looked incredible for it.

But throwing in a flash pin gives it a slight vibe that Sabin was lucky to win. Again, those finishes aren't bad all the time, but there's a time and place for them.

Here's the thing though, Senshi didn't continue his feud with Sabin after the event. In fact, Sabin didn't hold the title for all too long before losing it to Styles. Thus Sabin got frustrated and turned heel.

Even though they were in Michigan, the crowd was quite divided. Both Senshi and Sabin were getting pops, but this is TNA, and the fans just tend to pop for anything.

Add to the fact Sabin had been chasing that title since at least 2 PPV's before that, it would've been much more beneficial to have him hit one more cradle shock to pick up the win. Those two went all out, and having Sabin go over clean wouldn't have made Senshi look weak.

That's basically my point; it would've come off even stronger if Sabin had won that way.

[ozequal]

I think the commentators need to do a better job of selling rollups to the audience at home.