|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Oct 1, 2009 18:20:50 GMT -5
Ever stop and consider that Bret Hart's matches at the two biggest stages for the WWF in 1992 (WM 8 at the Silverdome and SS92 at Wembley) were both IC title matches against fellow faces, Piper and Bulldog?
I'm wondering if there's a reason why Bret was in this situation. I mean, sure, SS92 also included a face vs. face Savage/Warrior match (though they worked in the possible heel element with Perfect), but Bret wrestled the two biggest shows of the year working face matches, in title matches and one main event, no less. Hell, he even worked a TV World Title main event, I'm pretty sure, against Virgil, and later against 1-2-3 Kid in 1993. Hell, let's even throw in his King of the Ring semi-final against Mr. Perfect, which was face vs. face.
Anyone have theories on why this was? The WWF as a rule, in those days, often avoided face vs. face matches except for big occasions. Was it simply the way the storylines had to go, or does it have to do with the way Bret was to be presented to the audience?
I'm also wondering about this because I've often thought of, in 1993, how intense it could've been to have Bret Hart vs. Randy Savage as a PPV main event, as well as the proposed Hogan/Hart match that never materialized, but how both of those would've involved Bret Hart, again, wrestling against fellow faces in title matches.
Personally, I think it partly has to do with Bret being booked as a fighting underdog in many cases (he could wrestle anybody and get some crowd sympathy if he wanted to), maybe some of it had to do with a lack of top heels at the time outside of Flair (especially once Taker was turned face and Jake left), and maybe Bret just wrestles a style that could just work in situations like that.
Personally, the explanation I like the best is that Bret was being presented as a new breed of champion; he did have storyline driven feuds, but the focus of his defenses was always the competition and proving he was the best, no matter the opponent. He wasn't fighting against big, bad foreigners to defend his home country, he wasn't fighting against pure evil, or even doing the "family man vs. playboy" type angle...he was just the fighting champion who's motivation was to beat everyone to prove he was the greatest.
|
|
|
|
Post by wasimperviz on Oct 1, 2009 18:24:31 GMT -5
I remember Bret when he was a fighting champion. I felt he had a great success as champion at the same time was having some of the best feuds and matches.
I will also never understand why WWE did not have him work with Macho Man. I mean WM9 could have been perfect for Bret to beat Macho Man?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bobby Womack on Oct 1, 2009 19:25:22 GMT -5
I remember Bret when he was a fighting champion. I felt he had a great success as champion at the same time was having some of the best feuds and matches. I will also never understand why WWE did not have him work with Macho Man. I mean WM9 could have been perfect for Bret to beat Macho Man? not only should they have done that, but perhaps they should have done it from... the uk? just once? im sure we all would have said it would have been good |
|
kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
|
Post by kidglov3s on Oct 1, 2009 19:39:11 GMT -5
What I find fascinating from a heel/face dynamic with Bret is his match with The Undertaker at WWF Royal Rumble 1996. I mean, Bret was nominally a face, but in this match he's heel all the way. Tearing off UT's mask, untying the turnbuckle, etc., doing things that faces don't do. And then he's saved only by Diesel's interference, basically cementing his role as a chickenshit heel that night. What a way to build Bret up strong for WMXII, eh?
|
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Oct 1, 2009 20:25:11 GMT -5
I remember Bret when he was a fighting champion. I felt he had a great success as champion at the same time was having some of the best feuds and matches. I will also never understand why WWE did not have him work with Macho Man. I mean WM9 could have been perfect for Bret to beat Macho Man? not only should they have done that, but perhaps they should have done it from... the uk? just once? im sure we all would have said it would have been good Dude, mind leaving that stuff out of this particular thread? C'mon. As odd as that whole booking decision was (you'd think they'd want Bret as strong as possible when trying to make HBK's win look like the biggest thing ever), by 1996 the idea of face vs. face wasn't so odd anymore. It still really had some novelty in it around 92-93, yet, again, it seemed the only guy who got placed in those matches more than once in a blue moon at this time was Hart. |
|
|
|
Post by glorydays on Oct 1, 2009 20:45:39 GMT -5
I think the "fighting champion" explanation is the best one. I think even Vince knew he gave the belt to Bret too soon, so they were pretty much building him up while he was champion. I still say if Bret had not won the title in 92, and instead won it for the first time at WM 10, he would have been much better off. It would have given Vince a year+ to build Bret up by having him win KOTR and the Royal Rumble (94) before beating Yoko/whoever at WM 10.
|
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Oct 1, 2009 21:51:25 GMT -5
I think the "fighting champion" explanation is the best one. I think even Vince knew he gave the belt to Bret too soon, so they were pretty much building him up while he was champion. I still say if Bret had not won the title in 92, and instead won it for the first time at WM 10, he would have been much better off. It would have given Vince a year+ to build Bret up by having him win KOTR and the Royal Rumble (94) before beating Yoko/whoever at WM 10. Agreed, though had I been in charge back then, I likely would've had Savage retain the title through WM 9, have Bret win the Rumble, and challenge him there. Sorry, Yoko. But you have a point about WM 10; that was the PPV that really thrust the "New Generation" era to the forefront, and Bret winning for the first time there could've had some great symbolic significance. |
|
|
|
Post by johnnyk9 on Oct 2, 2009 6:21:36 GMT -5
Bret never had a televised match with Lex Luger after the knockout incident at WM9 I was looking forward to that match, but then they turned Luger face
|
|
|
|
Post by Youngie on Oct 2, 2009 6:25:20 GMT -5
I would have loved a Bret vs. Luger face vs. face match.
|
|
|
|
Post by wasimperviz on Oct 2, 2009 18:52:56 GMT -5
For WM10 I feel if that was the main event it could had been really strong but I would had wanted Bret to go over not Luger. Bret when he was a fighting champion had some of the best matches ever. I miss the days of Bret as a world champion.
|
|
El Dandy
Don Corleone
Who are you to doubt El Dandy?
Posts: 1,901
|
Post by El Dandy on Oct 2, 2009 19:07:51 GMT -5
Bret vs. Shawn at WrestleMania XII was also another face vs. face match he was involved in, and one of Bret's favorite matches of his career. I believe he has gone on record saying that was his favorite or most rewarding match he's ever had. He's also joked about feeling proud being able to keep up with Shawn for an hour.
|
|
|
|
Post by wasimperviz on Oct 2, 2009 19:10:29 GMT -5
Bret vs. Shawn at WrestleMania XII was also another face vs. face match he was involved in, and one of Bret's favorite matches of his career. I believe he has gone on record saying that was his favorite or most rewarding match he's ever had. He's also joked about feeling proud being able to keep up with Shawn for an hour. That was in 1996 the topic is for 1992 - 1993 but his match at WM was decent. Bret did have a good face vs heel match with HBK at Survivor Series 1992. |
|
|
|
Post by lildude8218 on Oct 2, 2009 23:16:06 GMT -5
FYI, they did have Bret as champion vs Savage but it took place in Japan.
|
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Oct 2, 2009 23:36:29 GMT -5
FYI, they did have Bret as champion vs Savage but it took place in Japan. I do remember reading about that in Bret's book; apparently, they wanted Bret to go over pretty quickly, but Bret went up to Randy and said "forget that, let's do this the way WE want to", and, naturally, put on a great show. |
|
H-Fist
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,485
|
Post by H-Fist on Oct 2, 2009 23:37:03 GMT -5
He wasn't fighting against big, bad foreigners to defend his home country, he wasn't fighting against pure evil, or even doing the "family man vs. playboy" type angle. I think this hits the mark, even if Vince didn't quite know it then. The USSR had fallen and Sgt. Slaughter had gotten his country back. Nikolai Volkoff was a babyface and Sheiky Baby was a comedy heel. America felt like it was at peace for the first time in 50 years. The economy was starting to grow with the development of the tech sector. People were optimistic. Happy people are not quick to anger. Thus, it is very hard to create an effective heel. Even death itself gained a following, while the New York crowd at the 1992 Royal Rumble cheered for Sid Justice's actions against Hulk Hogan. Who would be a heel in a peaceful world? Flair did pretty well for a little while. Sid was cheered too much as some people rejected Hogan's Cold War-era shtick. The Mountie was a midcard comedy act. Shawn Michaels had the tools, but was just starting to build momentum. Money Incorporated was relegated to the tag division. It wasn't until the world shifted a bit more that the enemy arose: Japanese technological superiority as a threat to American dominance and financial health. The Walkman was the new H-bomb. And Yokozuna was Vince McMahon's response: a Japanese villain, larger than life, to fill the void. And Luger would turn into the new Hogan, the comic book American hero. The problem was that the audience felt like they'd won enough nationalist battles. It was Bret Hart and the Undertaker, a fighting champion and a dead man, who captured the crowd. The show was about escaping the real world now, being entertained, rather than seeing a new Cold War burlesque with a happy ending. There needed to be more credible faces because it was a lot harder for Americans to agree on who should be the heels. |
|
|
|
Post by mauled on Oct 3, 2009 2:29:21 GMT -5
I remember Bret when he was a fighting champion. I felt he had a great success as champion at the same time was having some of the best feuds and matches. I will also never understand why WWE did not have him work with Macho Man. I mean WM9 could have been perfect for Bret to beat Macho Man? not only should they have done that, but perhaps they should have done it from... the uk? just once? im sure we all would have said it would have been good Strangely enough he was wrestling Macho quite a bit at the time. In his book he talk about wrestling Macho in house shows and tours like in Japan and that Savage himself was enjoyed himself getting out of the announcer chair (that he hated being in) for a bit. I just scratch my head and wonder why Vince didnt put it on a PPV cause thate would have made a great passing of the torch to the new generation moment. |
|
|
|
Post by Youngie on Oct 3, 2009 6:12:26 GMT -5
FYI, they did have Bret as champion vs Savage but it took place in Japan. This match?: Great quality  |
|
|
|
Post by lildude8218 on Oct 3, 2009 12:13:06 GMT -5
WWF @ Yokohama, Japan - Arena - May 7, 1994 (4,500)
Rick Martel (sub. for Shawn Michaels) defeated the 1-2-3 Kid via submission at 6:50 with the Boston Crab
Tatanka pinned Jinsei Shinzaki at 7:21 with a backflip into a cover
WWF Tag Team Champions the Headshrinkers defeated the Smoking Gunns at 12:04 when Fatu pinned Billy Gunn
Doink the Clown pinned Nobukazu Hirai at 6:46 with the Whoopie Cushion
Bull Nakano pinned WWF Women's Champion Alundra Blayze in a non-title match with a legdrop off the top at 9:45
Owen Hart defeated Masashi Aoyagi via submission with the Sharpshooter at 6:29
Adam Bomb pinned Bob Backlund with a small package at 10:25
The Undertaker & Genichiro Tenryu defeated Yokozuna & Bam Bam Bigelow at 18:17 when the Undertaker pinned Yoko with a chokeslam after Bigelow accidentally splashed his partner
WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Randy Savage with the Sharpshooter at 17:48; Savage played the heel for the match
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Oct 3, 2009 16:57:24 GMT -5
FYI, they did have Bret as champion vs Savage but it took place in Japan. This match?: Great quality It's handheld footage, you can't really expect too much from that. |
|
|
|
Post by wasimperviz on Oct 3, 2009 18:02:25 GMT -5
FYI, they did have Bret as champion vs Savage but it took place in Japan. It was still very rare because a number of us do not even know this match took place. This was a match that should have happened on the WM stage at some point in my view. |
|
