Flair Joins WWF in 91: WWF's Gain. WCW's gain too?

[Youngie]

So we all know the story of Ric Flair leaving WCW and joining the WWF in 1991.

You would think in the absence of Ric Flair (Mr. WCW) that the promotion would then crash and burn. Quite the opposite happened and once Ric Flair left WCW then put on some incredible PPV's (the likes of which we'd never again when Flair returned to WCW) in 1992 like:

Beach Blast '92
WrestleWar'92
SuperBrawl II
Starrcade '92

etc.

As far as I can see when Flair left guys like Sting, Vader, Rick Rude, Rick Steamboat, Larry Zbysko, Brian Pillman & Barry Windham had to "carry the flag" and they did a damn good job of it.

So my question is was Ric Flair leaving WCW in 1991 a good bit of business? And if so I guess we have Jim Herd to thank for it.

[Mozenrath]

It absolutely ruined at least one PPV for them, to be sure. I'd have to see sales figures to know for sure the impact, but you do raise an interesting point, with saying that people tried to fill the void.

I would say it damaged the credibility of the championship, though.

[biggdeez40]

I think its more of a coincidence or the overall product like when WWF's ratings went up after Shawn Michaels got hurt. I don't think either of those guys were hurting the promotion. I would give Herd no credit as he was awful. The product got better as soon as he was out and that Kip Frye (?) guy took over. It didn't last as WCW was back to being pretty bad again before Flair came back.

[Jared Jammer]

Flair had hogged the main event scene for close to a decade by then. Think about Triple H nowadays, now multiply that by about 5. That's how stale Flair was by 1991. So yes, it was a great thing that he left and forced WCW to give us fresh main events.

[JerryvonKramer]

Really, really good thread.

There's an argument to say that if Flair had been there, we would have got Sting vs. the Dangerous Alliance -- in fact we might not have got the Dangerous Alliance at all since Arn would have still been a Horseman.

There's an argument to say we wouldn't have got Sting vs. Vader either, or Ron Simmons as World Champ.

On the other hand, Flair was always the NWA's/ WCW's go to guy to "paper over the cracks" when they were up against it. Even if the undercard blew, you could count on a great main event. When things starting going really wrong for Bill Watts around Autumn '92, the lack of Flair exacerbated the problem.

1. We got appalling main events like Sting vs. Jake Roberts (Halloween Havoc) and pointless tag tournaments to mask the fact the top of the card was thin (Great American Bash 92, Starrcade '92).

2. The crowd started with the "WE WANT FLAIR!" chants again whenever they got bored.

3. On several occasions Watts was forced to acknowledge title changes that had involved Flair and Flair's general importance to the company history -- it just wasn't done to acknowledge a wrestler who was in the pay of the competition but Flair was SOOOO Mr. WCW it was difficult not to when they showed clips of Sting or Luger or whoever winning their titles.

So, on the face of it, yes, WCW got some great stuff in the absence of Flair, which they might not have had. But the bottom-line is, when the s*** hit the fan they really missed him.

Which is why they welcomed him back with open arms at Superbrawl III in February 1993.

[johnnyk9]

It gave WCW a chance to showcase up and coming talent a lot more

[JerryvonKramer]

Sept 2, 2009 15:25:09 GMT -5 johnnyk9 said:

It gave WCW a chance to showcase up and coming talent a lot more

... such as Dustin Rhodes, Ice Train, Big Josh and Erik Watts

[romafan87]

Sept 2, 2009 15:35:49 GMT -5 JerryvonKramer said:

Sept 2, 2009 15:25:09 GMT -5 johnnyk9 said:

It gave WCW a chance to showcase up and coming talent a lot more

... such as Dustin Rhodes, Ice Train, Big Josh and Erik Watts

In a way, it worked just like major sports work, almost like a trade. For the price WCW was paying Flair, they were able to pick up Rude (proven veteran), Dustin Rhodes (exciting prospect), and Ricky Steamboat (veteran question mark), whereas the WWF got the marquee player, Flair. It also allowed the WCW to sign WWF cast-offs like Barbarian, Valentine, Hercules, and Roberts within the year.

I think it hurt the WWF more than it did help them and you can argue that on buy rates alone. They were expecting dollar signs with Hogan v. Flair but they couldn't even sell out house shows, specifically at MSG and the Boston Garden. Flair simply wasn't the type of character they would be able to mold at their convenience. to be a viable villain for Hulk. I think they had gold with Savage and Piper, and maybe Hart, but he just didn't fit what the northeast fans wanted at the time.

[Youngie]

Thanks for some great posts.

Is it fair (to Flair) to say that Ric Flair's last great NWA/WCW match was against Lex Luger at Wrestlewar '90? I feel after that Flair was a bit washed up and needed a change of scenery. So it was good for him to get away for a while.

if Flair hadn't left in 1991 would the following have gotten a chance to "step up"?

Sting: Top-tier face but won his first WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Lex Luger at SuperBrawl II and was made to carry the torch in the absence of Flair.

Vader: The best "big man" in the business. Pushed to the top in 1992 to become WCW World Heavyweight champion (beating Sting The Great American Bash)

Ron Simmons: Became the first African-American WCW World Heavyweight champ after a monster push in 1992 (defeating Vader).

Rick Rude: Was a top-tier heel in 1992 challenging Ron Simmons (at the time WCW World Heavyweight Champion)

etc.

Was any of this possible if Ric Flair was still around "controlling" operations? Would Flair have jobbed to a Ron Simmons or Rick Rude?

[Jay Peas 42]

Flair in NWA/WCW seems a lot like Undertaker in the WWE. I think any benefits WCW got were outweighed by the losses.

[stevieraymark]

Sept 3, 2009 12:34:02 GMT -5 Youngie said:

Thanks for some great posts.

Is it fair (to Flair) to say that Ric Flair's last great NWA/WCW match was against Lex Luger at Wrestlewar '90? I feel after that Flair was a bit washed up and needed a change of scenery. So it was good for him to get away for a while.

if Flair hadn't left in 1991 would the following have gotten a chance to "step up"?

Sting: Top-tier face but won his first WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Lex Luger at SuperBrawl II and was made to carry the torch in the absence of Flair.

Vader: The best "big man" in the business. Pushed to the top in 1992 to become WCW World Heavyweight champion (beating Sting The Great American Bash)

Ron Simmons: Became the first African-American WCW World Heavyweight champ after a monster push in 1992 (defeating Vader).

Rick Rude: Was a top-tier heel in 1992 challenging Ron Simmons (at the time WCW World Heavyweight Champion)

etc.

Was any of this possible if Ric Flair was still around "controlling" operations? Would Flair have jobbed to a Ron Simmons or Rick Rude?

Good points on Flair not really having anything left to do, But id say his match with Fujinami at Superbrawl in 91 was his last great match. What we need to remember as well is that in late 1990 Flairs momentum was almost completely dead coming off of the Black Scorpion angle.

As for who would have suffered the most from Flair staying.

Sting- would have been fine imo, Although we'd seen Flair vs Sting before, Either man could win or lose this feud and still be fine in the eyes of the fans. Flair had already made Sting by this point in his career the top face in the company ( arguably til wcws death) .

Ron Simmons- Ron would have GREATLY benefited from Flair being around imo, Going over Flair would have MADE Simmons in the eyes of the fans especially when you take into consideration the title situation and the debates over whether he was a real champion or not.

As for the heels - i honestly dont think they would have had a look-in in the main event scene. That might not have hurt Rude that much, But i doubt we would be talking about Vaders run today if Flair had been around.

[JerryvonKramer]

Sept 3, 2009 13:09:43 GMT -5 stevieraymark said:

But id say his match with Fujinami at Superbrawl in 91 was his last great match.

Hey, that's not fair! You stole the point I was going to make before I said it! ;D

Don't they say that those two had a much better match in Japan around that time?

Sept 3, 2009 13:09:43 GMT -5 stevieraymark said:

Sting- would have been fine imo, Although we'd seen Flair vs Sting before, Either man could win or lose this feud and still be fine in the eyes of the fans. Flair had already made Sting by this point in his career the top face in the company ( arguably til wcws death) .

Sting was feuding with the Dangerous Alliance and Vader for all of 1992. I see no reason why Flair being there would change that. They'd already done Flair/ Sting 3 times (Horsemen angle, 1990 and then Black Scorpion).

Sept 3, 2009 13:09:43 GMT -5 stevieraymark said:

Ron Simmons- Ron would have GREATLY benefited from Flair being around imo, Going over Flair would have MADE Simmons in the eyes of the fans especially when you take into consideration the title situation and the debates over whether he was a real champion or not.

Totally agreed. Simmons suffered from having no credible heel opponents at all. His major PPV defences came against The Barbarian and Dr. Death Steve Williams.

And as soon as he faced someone of main event calibre (Vader) he lost. I think Simmons had a poor run to be honest. First African American and all that, but history does not view that run as a success, partly due to booking, partly due to the roster being thin for heels at the top.

Sept 3, 2009 13:09:43 GMT -5 stevieraymark said:

As for the heels - i honestly dont think they would have had a look-in in the main event scene. That might not have hurt Rude that much, But i doubt we would be talking about Vaders run today if Flair had been around.

Really? Don't forget that Flair re-debuted as a face in 1993. And the Horsemen (with Roma) were a face stable for all of that year. Since the Flair was now a "Legend" as well as a champ/ former champ the WCW fans marked for him (and Arn!).

Why not have the Horsemen re-form (as it happened, only with someone better than Roma )? Reasoning: Arn was a part of the DA. Arn leaving to re-join the Horsemen would piss off Paul E. (and Rude and Austin etc.) and bang insta stable vs. stable feud, instant War Games '93 match. Let's say Pillman replaces Arn in the DA. Could have been epic. Think of the matches.

Sept 3, 2009 12:34:02 GMT -5 Youngie said:

Was any of this possible if Ric Flair was still around "controlling" operations? Would Flair have jobbed to a Ron Simmons or Rick Rude?

Since Flair jobbed to Rick Rude at Fall Brawl '93, the answer is yes.

[Slingshot Suplay]

I think Flair leaving hurt two guys :

Lex Luger and Barry Windham. Both guys worked their way up the ladder over the years to be legit title contenders, but because neither man beat Flair for the NWA title after chasing him for years hurt their status imo, which led to "we want Flair" chants during their title match.

It was bad times for WCW because Flair was still "the Man" and he didn't do either one of these men justice by leaving with the belt and not giving someone the rub on his way out.

[JerryvonKramer]

I know Windham is still pretty sore over that. He was told it was "his turn" but then Flair hightailed it with the belt.

From Barry's point of view, that was kind of selfish of Flair to do that.

I understand it from Flair's side too, but he could have done one last job for his old friend before he left.

Also, I honestly believe that Luger wasn't hurt by not going over Flair but by the booking of that match at GAB '91.

Luger went into that match as a pretty over face. The fans wanted something, ANYthing to cheer for. They were ready to cheer him. They wanted to cheer him.

In a classic WCW move, Luger turns heel during the match. How? Harley Race wanders down to ring-side with Mr. Hughes. And, yip, that's it. Nothing else happens. Race is there and that makes Luger heel.

So 1. shouldn't have turned heel in the first place and 2. worst and least clear heel turn of all time.

I mean go back and watch that and the crowd are just confused. Ok, I mean they were probably fried, they'd just sat through Bash '91 for god's sake, but still -- that was an awful way to handle the turn.

That's what killed Luger's title run from the off.

[stevieraymark]

[/quote]

Hey, that's not fair! You stole the point I was going to make before I said it! ;D

Don't they say that those two had a much better match in Japan around that time?
[/quote]

Would that be the one from the NJPW/WCW supershow? ive never seen it but i have heard great things. I suppose in this day and age it should be floating around somewhere.

[stevieraymark]

That was quick. Here is Ric Flair vs Tatsumi Fujinami for the world title from the WCW/NJPW supershow on 21/3/91 www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/flair+vs+fujinami/video/x33okw_tatsumi-fujinami-vs-ric-flairwcw-ti_sport

ENJOY!

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

Regarding Flair/Windham:

Barry has seemed upset about the fact that Flair left with the belt before he got his turn.

Meanwhile, Flair has said on numerous occasions that Herd wanted him to drop the belt to Luger, which he wasn't willing to do. He offered to drop the belt to Windham before the Bash. Herd said "Let me think about it." He called back and that's when he said don't worry about it, just give the belt to Doug Dillenger, which as well all know didn't happen.

I'm under the impression that Flair and Windham are cool now anyway.

[Hugh Mungus]

Sept 4, 2009 13:08:45 GMT -5 "Playboy" Don Douglas said:

Regarding Flair/Windham:

Barry has seemed upset about the fact that Flair left with the belt before he got his turn.

Meanwhile, Flair has said on numerous occasions that Herd wanted him to drop the belt to Luger, which he wasn't willing to do. He offered to drop the belt to Windham before the Bash. Herd said "Let me think about it." He called back and that's when he said don't worry about it, just give the belt to Doug Dillenger, which as well all know didn't happen.

I'm under the impression that Flair and Windham are cool now anyway.

Flair didn't want to drop the belt to Luger because Flair already promised that he would drop it to Sting, who was injured at that time, and even fought with Herd over it.

[Albino Heat]

So if Flair stayed, one would assume he would be dropping the belt. Windham probably was not over enough to run with it, Sting was hurt, so he probably would have dropped it to Luger.

So the question is: How would a face Luger world title reign be booked?

I could see Luger rematching against Flair and defending it against Windham, after that it gets fuzzy.

Also a point to consider: before Flair left, Sid Vicious also took off, leaving them one Horseman short. Would someone have been brought in to be the fourth Horseman, or would they disband?

[JerryvonKramer]

Windham got a run with the NWA title though, so he literally has nothing to be bitter about.